Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

What about the gorsebrook hill area!
http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rf5...48&lvl=1&sty=b

It could definitely work... give some land to local residents... put a parking structure where the Jr. high is and try to keep the stadium as far away from inglis as possible!

This area looks like too tight of a site. You would have to shoehorn in the stadium. There would not be much room for any growth. I also have the feeling that you would see the rise of the NIMBYs. As much as I would love to see a stadium downtown, I really don't see any adequate location. Keep in mind that Rogers Skydome and many other downtown stadiums were built for baseball and its 80+ home dates. With the CFL you would only have 9+ home dates. Being downtown is just not as important. That is why a lot of the newer NFL stadiums are located out from the city. I have noticed that in England, many of the stadiums are located next to large shopping centers in order to take advantage of the substantial amount of already existing free parking. Halifax has two large shopping areas (Dartmouth Crossing and Bicentennial Road) with open land near by that is large enough for a stadium.
One of these locations might be the best overall option.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

This area looks like too tight of a site. You would have to shoehorn in the stadium. There would not be much room for any growth. I also have the feeling that you would see the rise of the NIMBYs. As much as I would love to see a stadium downtown, I really don't see any adequate location. Keep in mind that Rogers Skydome and many other downtown stadiums were built for baseball and its 80+ home dates. With the CFL you would only have 9+ home dates. Being downtown is just not as important. That is why a lot of the newer NFL stadiums are located out from the city. I have noticed that in England, many of the stadiums are located next to large shopping centers in order to take advantage of the substantial amount of already existing free parking. Halifax has two large shopping areas (Dartmouth Crossing and Bicentennial Road) with open land near by that is large enough for a stadium.
One of these locations might be the best overall option.

If it will only be used for the CFL for 9 home games then there isn't a very good financial case for building it. The purpose of locating it close to downtown is to maximize its use. If you look at a list of NFL Stadiums, 2 out of every 3 are located close to downtown areas. There are several newer stadiums that have been built close to downtown areas (Baltimore, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis are recent ones that come to mind). It isn't really a case of shoehorning it into a location, but locating it close to the highest population density with the best public transit. What works best for the Metro Centre, Convention Centre, Central Library, and museums is what will work best for a stadium.

Having a stadium built out in the suburbs might result in an unsuccessful stadium that could be a major disadvantage for any team that locates there. If Halifax had a stadium on the peninsula then I would want to fly down to Halifax to attend games, but if it is in the suburbs then I would just wait until a Halifax team travels to Toronto or Hamilton to see their games. Flying to Halifax to attend a game at Dartmouth Crossings just wouldn't seem very worthwhile to me (this is my honest opinion, for what it is worth). I think people need to be careful of what they hope for, since it could become the reality for the next 50 years. If a peninsula location really isn't available then I think that the Halifax Mainland Commons would be a good compromise location with a view of the city. (I think this is a fair location because it is still relatively close to 3 universities). However, I feel a peninsula location would be the best choice.

[Welkin]

Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh all built downtown stadiums in the same location as previous stadiums. They tore down these old stadiums (which were built as part of massive urban renewal projects in the 1960's and 1970's) and built new stadiums in the same area. They did not build from scratch in downtown locations. Except for Cleveland, the other three also contain parking lots adjacent to the stadium for thousands and thousands of vehicles. Charlotte built a new stadium downtown but it was located on 35 acres of mostly vacant land (not much of that in downtown Halifax).

Everyone agrees that downtown Halifax would be a great location for a stadium, but unless it involves an urban renewal project and a couple of city blocks being cleared, I don't see any location big enough for a stadium environment and some parking. Since the peninsula (or another waterfront area in Dartmouth with a non-existent high speed ferry) is not really a viable option, you have to look towards the suburbs. Mainland Commons would be just fine but they would need to make improvements to entrance and exit access roads.

Any new stadium will only experience mass crowds (over 20,000 people) for 9+ CFL games, a soccer friendly and maybe 6 concerts a year. The stadium should experience many, many days with youth sports programs and community activities. If an inflatable dome is placed over the field in winter, it could be used by the youth of Halifax all winter long. Those kind of events only draw a couple of hundred and won't fill the pubs and restaurants downtown anyway. The stadium does not need to be downtown for it to be successful. It may not be cool enough to draw in the "Flying in from Toronto for the Weekend Crowd", but it will be successful.

[reddog794]

What about taking down half of the old West-End mall, and build it there. It could even be a nucleus, to an "Uptown". Even though I see Quinpool, the traditional "Uptown" of Halifax, being up the hill from DT.

[fenwick16]

I have been to Camden Yards in Baltimore which is several hundred feet from the Ravens Stadium and I don't remember seeing that many parking spots. I have been to Rogers Centre several times and there are probably thousands of parking spots but they are municipal and private lots that existed before the Rogers Centre was built. But acres of parking don't surround the Rogers Centre, they are spread through the surrounding city blocks.

The Halifax Commons hosted 50,000 for the Paul McCartney concert with only existing city parking locations.

[Welkin]

M & T Bank Stadium in downtown Baltimore has 4,200 on-site parking spaces and over 30,000 downtown parking spaces in garages and near by parking lots.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Welkin

M & T Bank Stadium in downtown Baltimore has 4,200 on-site parking spaces and over 30,000 downtown parking spaces in garages and near by parking lots.

This source indicates 2,200 on-site parking spots - http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/Ba...vens/index.htm .

I don't know of any on-site parking for the Rogers Centre and there doesn't seem to be a problem finding a parking spot.

Halifax also has thousands of downtown parking spaces. Where did everybody park for the Paul McCartney concert?

The M & T Bank Stadium has a capacity of 71,000, the Halifax stadium that we are talking about would be 25,000 - 30,000 seats. (for a very large concert, like the Paul McCartney concert, it could then accommodate an additional 20,000 on the field for a total of about 45,000 - 50,000 - but this was already accomplished at the Halifax Commons).

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This source indicates 2,200 on-site parking spots - http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/Ba...vens/index.htm .

I don't know of any on-site parking for the Rogers Centre and there doesn't seem to be a problem finding a parking spot.

Halifax also has thousands of downtown parking spaces. Where did everybody park for the Paul McCartney concert?

The M & T Bank Stadium has a capacity of 71,000, the Halifax stadium that we are talking about would be 25,000 - 30,000 seats. (for a very large concert, like the Paul McCartney concert, it could then accommodate an additional 20,000 on the field for a total of about 45,000 - 50,000 - but this was already accomplished at the Halifax Commons).

I would assume that most people either parked at Park and Ride lots and then bused and used ferries or were accessible to the bus and ferry without the need for a car (with the exception of those who came from out of town). I would also hazzard a guess that a great many of those who came from out of town parked at their hotel and walked in; since from what I heard it was a nice night out.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This source indicates 2,200 on-site parking spots - http://football.ballparks.com/NFL/Ba...vens/index.htm .

I don't know of any on-site parking for the Rogers Centre and there doesn't seem to be a problem finding a parking spot.

Halifax also has thousands of downtown parking spaces. Where did everybody park for the Paul McCartney concert?

The M & T Bank Stadium has a capacity of 71,000, the Halifax stadium that we are talking about would be 25,000 - 30,000 seats. (for a very large concert, like the Paul McCartney concert, it could then accommodate an additional 20,000 on the field for a total of about 45,000 - 50,000 - but this was already accomplished at the Halifax Commons).

Not that it really matters, but here is the link to the stadium site so that you can check it out the 4200 on-site parking spaces for yourself.
http://www.mdstad.com/content/view/37/91/

Nobody builds a downtown stadium in this day and age without on-site parking for the fans that rent the luxury suites and club seats as well as parking for the home team players, staff, league officials, TV crews, and etc. This is not like the days when you would build Ivor Wynne Stadium in what is basically a residential neighborhood and have your fans scramble for parking spaces. Concerts are not football games. The dynamics are totally different. Today's new stadiums cater to the high ticket, catering eating, suites and club seats crowds. They offer the greatest profit potential for any club and on-site parking is one of the perks they are paying for and expect to receive. Any stadium Halifax builds should have a minimum of 1,000 on-site parking spaces, regardless of whatever downtown parking is available. You have to figure that extra space for parking into any configuration of a potential downtown location.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by reddog794

What about taking down half of the old West-End mall, and build it there. It could even be a nucleus, to an "Uptown". Even though I see Quinpool, the traditional "Uptown" of Halifax, being up the hill from DT.

I think this would be an excellent location for a stadium. There is plenty of parking and it has good transit connections. It also has good highway access and is relatively close to three universities. I think that Dalhousie and Saint Mary's students could probably get there on one bus without requiring a transfer.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by reddog794

What about taking down half of the old West-End mall, and build it there. It could even be a nucleus, to an "Uptown". Even though I see Quinpool, the traditional "Uptown" of Halifax, being up the hill from DT.

It's certainly a site that no one has really thought of.
Could have potential as part of a massive redevelopment - if the stadium leaves room for say office towers; parking could be used as a joint use site. So if you could squeeze in say one or two (at most three) commercial tower pads (while still maintaining parking numbers or include some parkades); then so long as a parking study supported joint use (no events typically during the work day; which seems like a no-brainer to me) - then at night when the offices might typically only be utilized at a lower level (say 20%); the parking could be used for the stadium.

Locationally, I agree with Fenwick. It sits at a major transit hub and potential regional rail stop (if it ever gets off the ground). The same could be true for an LRT/RAV line type system - I suspect Mumford would be a good stopping point or end of a line (with feeder buses out into Clayton Park/Fairview).

Good eye reddog!

[fenwick16]

This is how I could see a stadium proceeding.


Stage 1 would be the lower sunken bowl, mainly just seats (which might include some or all bench style seats). This would seat 13,800 (not drawn is a vehicle ramp at one end, and space under one end would have room for large changerooms and other facilities). Washrooms would also have to be included. I believe that depending on the site selected, this could be done for about $30 million. With space on the field for an additional 25,000, such a stadium could accommodate close to 39,000 for large concerts.
STAGE 1



Since Halifax would now have a stadium, exhibition CFL games and large outdoor sports events could be obtained. Once Halifax is able to obtain a large sports event (with federal funding) build the first sideline tier of seats. This would have to meet the building code and basic requirements regarding washroom fixtures and concession space. In order to have sufficient concourse space, a second concourse level would be required under that tier of seats. Concourse space for about 4 square feet per person on that side of the stadium would be required. This is considered to be a industry standard - reference http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/publi...n_addition.pdf . That tier of seats would be built economically to minimize cost but have an interesting stadium roof design to add an aesthetically interesting feature to the stadium. The roof support is based on the Swansea Stadium in the UK (it would have to be built stronger or have a shorter roof overhang to compensate for much higher snow load requirements in the Halifax area versus the Swansea Stadium location in the UK). This would add another 8,800 seats to the 13,800 in the sunken bowl for a total of 22,600. Wheelchair locations and areas for luxury seats would be in-between the lower sunken bowl and the upper tier of seats.
STAGE 2




Now that the Halifax area would have a fair size stadium, I believe that there would be interest shown by a potential owner in obtaining a CFL team for Halifax. I think that with some temporary seating to bring the total up to 25,000, a CFL team would be viable. Once the Halifax area proves that it can support a CFL team it can obtain a Grey Cup Game. At this point, build the second sideline seating area to bring the total to 31,400. Temporary seating would also be required in the endzones to get the total to around 40,000 for the Grey Cup.
STAGE 3


Not shown is the endzone expansion to get seating up to 40,000 for the Grey Cup (which could be temporary seats) and for a potential 2034 FIFA World Mens Cup which would include Halifax as a host city (more popular than the NFL in the US and watched by billions of people). Halifax could be a first round FIFA Cup host city, and who knows, maybe even get some second round games.

I think that a stadium could be built for a construction cost that would work out to $2,500 per seat. In current dollars, a complete 31,400 stadium would be about $80 million dollars. This is not a dirt cheap outdoor stadium cost but is an economical cost estimate that is based on construction costs of many economically priced stadiums in North America and Europe. It would be important to stay within a budgeted cost. So if it can't be done for that cost then the size would have to be reduced by reducing the number of seats. However, if a CFL team is overwhelmingly popular in the Halifax area, the additional seats would be desired.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Not shown is the endzone expansion to get seating up to 40,000 for the Grey Cup (which could be temporary seats) and for a potential 2034 FIFA World Mens Cup which would include Halifax as a host city (more popular than the NFL in the US and watched by billions of people). Halifax could be a first round FIFA Cup host city, and who knows, maybe even get some second round games.



I think that a stadium could be built for a construction cost that would work out to $2,500 per seat. In current dollars, a complete 31,400 stadium would be about $80 million dollars. This is not a dirt cheap outdoor stadium cost but is an economical cost estimate that is based on construction costs of many economically priced stadiums in North America and Europe. It would be important to stay within a budgeted cost. So if it can't be done for that cost then the size would have to be reduced by reducing the number of seats. However, if a CFL team is overwhelmingly popular in the Halifax area, the additional seats would be desired.

That looks great Fenwick! You've obviously put a lot of work into that.

[Empire]

STAGE 3


Excellent job Fenwick! I like the tiered approach. Maybe this version can be presented to the media when the CFL game hits Moncton?

see #1052

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

That looks great Fenwick! You've obviously put a lot of work into that.

Thanks terrynorthend and Empire.

Edited (September 2 2010): I re-drew the model to make the roof trusses a bit more realistic

I started off thinking in terms of the new Stanford Stadium without the endzones but built to include a Canadian football field and FIFA International soccer size field. The new Stanford Stadium description is here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Stadium . It was completely rebuilt in 2006 (the old stadium structure was demolished) with 50,000 seats for $90 million.

The Swansea Stadium has an interesting roof structure (in my opinion) and a description is here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Stadium,_Swansea. It was built for $27 million British pounds in 2005 and seats 20,532. That would be about $45 - $50 million Canadian dollars.

[CorbeauNoir]

So, having next-to-no knowledge about this situation and not feeling up to reading over 50 pages of back-catalogued posts, has there been ANY sort of actual progress towards a possible stadium that isn't complete speculation?

[fenwick16]

It is a matter of residents and ex-residents showing interest in a stadium and contacting the Mayor and Councillors which several of us have done. We are trying to be proactive in our approach. We have had responses from the Mayor and Councillors to the effect that Halifax would require a major sports event. Hopefully, the HRM Council and interested parties (including some of us) can get the ball rolling on the first stage of a stadium so that Halifax has a legitimate chance of attracting a major sports event.

As far-fetched as it may sound, we are trying to be proactive in our approach and do what we can in order to see a stadium built. The current goal is to have an HRM sanctioned building fund set up and have the HRM council actively working towards selecting a site for a stadium.

[fenwick16]

There was a report in the allnovascotia.com today about a $50 million dollar Racino (racecourse and casino combination) being considered for the Dartmouth Crossings that could also hold 50,000 for concerts. There was no mention of it incorporating a football stadium though (and I cannot really support gambling as a way to build a stadium, just my personal feeling).

[FuzzyWuz]

So, with a sunken lower bowl how is drainage done? Is pumping required?

[fenwick16]

This is sunken by 21 feet. Professionals in the construction field with knowledge of the city water drain system would be able to connect to a point that is at a lower elevation than the stadium. This is just my personal opinion, I would think that pumps would want to be avoided. However, I have one in my home (a sump pump).

This is a good question for an expert in that field.

In addition to the water drainage system, it will be important for a stadium to be in an area that can also handle the sewer line connections. Although the washrooms would be at or above grade, some parts of the city might not be able to handle the needs of 30,000 plus people.