The NHL is coming closer to Quebec City

[svlt]

I don't disagree the CFL is definitely a bigger deal in Canada, nor that it's among the very best of its sport. It's just that MLS is still a way bigger league in revenues and by trajectory, I expect it to one day be part of a "Big 5" moreso than the CFL and MLS remaining part of a (+2) of a "Big 4". There's no particular magic or mystique, the MLS just has more teams, 27 in the US, and it did an amazing job of not being a complete also-ran like many other minor leagues in the US, so it has a strong foothold to move on. Frankly the way things are going, maybe it'll be more of a "Big 3" (NFL NBA MLB) and "Small 2" (NHL MLS) in the future.

League quality compared to the rest of the world I don't think should influence what people watch, I never catch a single NFL or EPL game despite being behemoths because those leagues don't interest me at all. Yes, I'd rather watch a CFL game, an MLS game and the IIHF world juniors over the NFL, EPL or NHL And if I lived in a smaller town I'd rather support my local junior hockey team.

"High quality" is essentially moot from a spectator standpoint and is more of a personal feeling when you've got mostly intra-league parity. Some very entertaining and watchable sporting maneuvers, in any league, can't be pulled off in the very best leagues due to air tight defenses. In the major European footy leagues it's a few bangers every week, but mostly snoozefests or beatdowns from the 1-2 league champions.

At the end of the day it's dollars and cents that are measurable and I think the MLS is growing quickly there. It doesn't affect my decision on league watchability, what matters when discussing what's "major pro" ultimately is $$$, and the trajectory of where those dollars are going.

For the record I would love to see the CFL be a 10 team stable league.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

The problem with Vancouver is Seattle. I think the NBA wants Seattle back more than it wants Vancouver, but I don't think they do both. If they do a 2 team expansion, I see it being Seattle and Vegas.

They did co-exist for six seasons. I actually don't know what it is about the league's abrupt exit from the PNW in the early 2000s, the region became one of the hottest and fastest growing in the country. I'd say as silly as if the NHL suddenly pulled two teams out of the sunbelt within 3 seasons of each other given their rapid growth as well.

But yeah, sadly NBA in Seattle (almost 100% guaranteed) is a big, big hinderance to Vancouver's prospects.

Originally Posted by isaidso

There are numerous reasons for this and none of them have to do with the CN Tower not measuring up. Australia is viewed as an exotic distant land and given considerable 'space' in people's consciousness. Canada lives in the shadow of the US in the same way that Philadelphia lives in the shadow of NYC. Canada is covered from the US and viewed as an appendage of it. British and American media have reporters based in Australia but not Canada.The mindset is that if you cover North America you cover NYC, LA, SF, Washington. There .... job done! On business shows they often list the ASX but never the TSX despite the latter being substantially larger. This again speaks to how Australia is viewed as its own place.

Australia has an absurdly high profile in the UK; they obsess over it ad nauseam. The weight they give it shows up in print media, tv, film, etc. I've even heard British argue that Sydney is one of the cities one instantly thinks of when one says 'skyscraper'. I almost fell off my chair when I heard that one but it speaks to how Australia focused British society is.

I suspect the fame of the CN Tower will grow in unison with the ascension of Toronto but Toronto will really have to match NYC/London in stature before either city/country will notice Toronto/Canada. Australia/Sydney never need to compete with the US/UK for oxygen.

This is such a good point I never looked at it this way. I always appraised Sydney and Melbourne by virtue of them being pretty amazing cities to visit and didn't give enough weight to them being in some far flung country. I really think the weather, accents, beach culture and sights of the country add a lot to the allure of those cities compared to Toronto, even though Toronto is actually bigger. Would you call it also more economically/geopolitically influential than Sydney, if quietly?

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

I know the data supports Montreal having a second pro sports team, but I feel as though Montreal getting a MLB team is akin to Quebec City getting an NHL franchise.

Both might struggle in the long haul, similar to the issues that are arising in Winnipeg now, with their ticket sales slowing down. At least with QC, the arena is already built, whereas Montreal would need to build a new stadium to accommodate a MLB team.

Montreal actually had three pro sports teams, the Canadiens in the NHL, the Alouettes in the CFL, and the old Expos for MLB, now the Washington Nationals. I agree that the NBA should look into placing another Canadian team in Canada and Montreal, being the second largest media market in Canada, makes a lot of sense if the NBA wants to further expand. Tony Parker is French, which would've helped basketball in French-speaking areas and I can't understand why the NBA didn't expand to Montreal as opposed to Vancouver, since Toronto and Montreal are the two biggest media markets in Canada.

Quebec looks like it can support a professional sports team. I don't know how the CFL does it when it comes to expanding teams, but I do recall that the CFL does have 9 football teams in the league. I'd like to see the CFL expand to 12 teams, with franchises in Quebec, Halifax, and Windsor (yes, even Windsor needs a pro team).

I'm not sure what are the qualifications are for maintaining a CFL team, but the CFL players don't really make the same amount of money as the ones in the NFL, and the TV contract isn't as lucrative as the NFL, so I don't understand why the CFL hasn't even considered expanding into 10 or even 12 teams.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Also, some might argue Montreal already has a second pro sports team, FC Montreal. Yes, even though the MLS is far behind the status the big 4 command, it is nonetheless a league on the rise, is becoming pretty influential, and is one that shouldn't be discarded (Heck, Messi's contract is up in a few months, and he has hinted that a move to the MLS might happen). if you plug in the cities with an MLS franchise in that list of yours, you'll see Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver are topped up just fine.

Therefore, my vote goes to QC getting the Nordiques back. Besides, as the US article you linked says, Denver has too many sports teams. The Av's should come back home !

Denver earned the right to be a four-sport town, and the Ave aren't going anywhere, although I still feel for the old Nordiques who had to move from Quebec to Denver just to be a major contender.

The MLS isn't there with the NFL, NBA, MLB and the NHL because soccer just isn't a huge sport in North America the way it is in Europe, Africa, and Latin America. The MLS started coming into existence in 1996 and rightfully so, it's number five in America compared to football, basketball, baseball, and hockey. In Canada, hockey will take first place, but America is a tough act to follow because soccer isn't a violent sport like football, or a fast paced sport like basketball, or a sport of power and skill like baseball, and not as graceful and gritty like hockey. Soccer is going to have to wait it's turn if it's going to come into the American conscience.

It took the NFL forty years to replace baseball as America's pastime, and basketball, although it never replaced the NFL as the number one sport her in America, reached out to the international fanbase instead, which is why the NBA is much bigger worldwide than the NFL. Hockey is very popular in Russia and Sweden, or where winter sports is very popular. Soccer has to wait it's turn in order to enter the American conscience, that's all.

[Blitz]

Quebec looks like it can support a professional sports team. I don't know how the CFL does it when it comes to expanding teams, but I do recall that the CFL does have 9 football teams in the league. I'd like to see the CFL expand to 12 teams, with franchises in Quebec, Halifax, and Windsor (yes, even Windsor needs a pro team).

It would never work in Windsor but a new franchise might work in London...might. The CFL has zero following in Windsor; it just can't compete with the NFL since there's a large Detroit Lions fanbase already entrenched here.

[MolsonExport]

London could support CFL football. I could see that working. The support for the London Knights Jr. Ice Hockey Team is incredible in this town. In and around London there is 535,000 people, and about the same number in a concentric circle extending 60-75kms from London itself.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I'm not sure what are the qualifications are for maintaining a CFL team, but the CFL players don't really make the same amount of money as the ones in the NFL, and the TV contract isn't as lucrative as the NFL, so I don't understand why the CFL hasn't even considered expanding into 10 or even 12 teams.

The CFL occupies an awkward middle ground where teams bring in modest amounts of money by the standards of the big 4 US leagues (in the tens of millions of dollars per year per team) but the model assumes that teams will have a fairly large and significant stadium to play in. It's not like a A level minor league baseball team where you can build a 4,000 seat ballpark on the cheap and run a profitable team.

For the somewhat smaller tier of cities that would have the potential to land CFL teams (Halifax the obvious one, but also places like Quebec, London, possibly an interior BC city), building a new $200 million dollar, give or take, stadium is a huge, risky ask and there is no existing fanbase to agitate for one. So that's why the league has remained at 9 teams for a long time.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

For the somewhat smaller tier of cities that would have the potential to land CFL teams (Halifax the obvious one, but also places like Quebec, London, possibly an interior BC city), building a new $200 million dollar, give or take, stadium is a huge, risky ask and there is no existing fanbase to agitate for one. So that's why the league has remained at 9 teams for a long time.

The whole experience in Halifax is bizarre. The CFL promotion has been stuck in a holding pattern with debates over how this $200M+ stadium development could or should happen but in the meantime another sports team started up, built a barebones stadium from scratch, and then played multiple seasons successfully. I'm not sure they received any public cash, but they were allowed to use public land for the stadium (actually there is ample public land for a stadium, but the CFL promoters aren't sure where to put their stadium). The CFL promoters have raised some public cash (in the tens of millions) at various times but it didn't meet their bar so they left it on the table.

(I think the best potential CFL stadium site, already part of the existing stadium site, is soon going to be off the table due to the construction of a new parking garage for a hospital that is being built. But that is not even part of the public discussion.)

People are quick to belittle this more modest stadium or the notion of setting up a sports team in Halifax since it is not one of Canada's grand global metropolises. But I question if the CFL is really so different, and if it makes sense that Canadian leagues struggle to expand into a smaller regional capital with a market that's about 5% of the national population. I think if national Canadian sports leagues were operating to their full potential they would have many more teams and Halifax would be far above the cutoff. Perhaps the smaller teams would not play against the larger teams but there would be a reasonable development path from small startup team to major national team. Some of the smaller teams would turn out to be more successful than anticipated and more of a money-maker than anticipated.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

For the somewhat smaller tier of cities that would have the potential to land CFL teams (Halifax the obvious one, but also places like Quebec, London, possibly an interior BC city), building a new $200 million dollar, give or take, stadium is a huge, risky ask and there is no existing fanbase to agitate for one. So that's why the league has remained at 9 teams for a long time.

Originally Posted by someone123

The whole experience in Halifax is bizarre. The CFL promotion has been stuck in a holding pattern with debates over how this $200M+ stadium development could or should happen but in the meantime another sports team started up, built a barebones stadium from scratch, and then played multiple seasons successfully. I'm not sure they received any public cash, but they were allowed to use public land for the stadium (actually there is ample public land for a stadium, but the CFL promoters aren't sure where to put their stadium). The CFL promoters have raised some public cash (in the tens of millions) at various times but it didn't meet their bar so they left it on the table.

It's fairly obvious that the problems lie more with the CFL than with the market (Halifax). The CFL's need for massive, expensive stadiums don't line up with their eventual economics. COVID hasn't helped of course but it was obvious prior to that that the league was floundering economically. Halifax, as can be seen with the CPL, is a slamdunk market for a number of different sports properties, with the QMJHL and NBLCanada managing to either be incredibly strong in the former and able to survive in the latter. The NLL would have and will be similar. The inability of the CFL to get started in that market points to inherent issues in their structure and economics as a whole. London would be no different for the CFL than Halifax has been.

[someone123]

One aspect that doesn't tend to come through clearly is that, for whatever reason (the promoters, bad PR, whatever), the CFL promotion in Halifax has been sold as a CFL development scheme with stadium rather than a push to get a single good stadium built in the municipality. Low information commenters from out of region will tend to interpret this outcome as inevitable and having to do with the economy of the region but in reality a $100-200M project is not that hard to fund locally, and there is a lot of demand for a bigger venue. However the city, province, and federal government will hesitate to spend on what seems to be a private sports promotion and land development scheme, and I don't blame them. I can't say I have been impressed with the CFL proposals so far for Halifax.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's fairly obvious that the problems lie more with the CFL than with the market (Halifax). The CFL's need for massive, expensive stadiums don't line up with their eventual economics. COVID hasn't helped of course but it was obvious prior to that that the league was floundering economically. Halifax, as can be seen with the CPL, is a slamdunk market for a number of different sports properties, with the QMJHL and NBLCanada managing to either be incredibly strong in the former and able to survive in the latter. The NLL would have and will be similar. The inability of the CFL to get started in that market points to inherent issues in their structure and economics as a whole. London would be no different for the CFL than Halifax has been.

I strongly suspect that if the CFL could turn back the clock 20-odd years, it would put a team in Halifax and just use some kind of improvised minimal stadium with temporary seating. Sort of along the lines that the one the Tiger-Cats used in Guelph while Tim Hortons Field was under construction.

If the team succeeded in that environment, it could have helped make the case for a new permanent stadium eventually. As the old saying goes, the CFL let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by esquire

I strongly suspect that if the CFL could turn back the clock 20-odd years, it would put a team in Halifax and just use some kind of improvised minimal stadium with temporary seating. Sort of along the lines that the one the Tiger-Cats used in Guelph while Tim Hortons Field was under construction.

They did do this for some games in Halifax at Huskies Stadium, seating capacity 11,000, around 2005. The stadium is mostly gone now I think.

One issue they had was the CFL promoters hitched their wagon to the failed and seemingly mismanaged 2014 Commonwealth Games bid (it failed because the plug was pulled midway through due to perceived planned cost overruns, not because the bid was not chosen). After that, local politicians became allergic to dealing with big sports proposals for a while. They should probably be permanently allergic in all cities.

[thurmas]

Covid-19 has decimated CFL's already weak business model that is why they are discussing a merger with the xfl and the rock today to probably try and get a cut of us expansion fees for some much needed revenue and maybe a us tv deal with fox. Much easier to add 8 to 12 us teams in 1 year

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's fairly obvious that the problems lie more with the CFL than with the market (Halifax). The CFL's need for massive, expensive stadiums don't line up with their eventual economics. COVID hasn't helped of course but it was obvious prior to that that the league was floundering economically. Halifax, as can be seen with the CPL, is a slamdunk market for a number of different sports properties, with the QMJHL and NBLCanada managing to either be incredibly strong in the former and able to survive in the latter. The NLL would have and will be similar. The inability of the CFL to get started in that market points to inherent issues in their structure and economics as a whole. London would be no different for the CFL than Halifax has been.

CPL salary cap is $1.2 million for players and off field employees. CFL salary cap is $8 million for players and off field employees. Add in travel, equipment, stadium rental and other expenses and most teams are hard pressed to make money at 22,000 fans per game. A stadium to seat 25,000 fans, and be capable to expand to at least 35,000 for grey cup will cost at least $200 million. Hamilton is the example.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I strongly suspect that if the CFL could turn back the clock 20-odd years, it would put a team in Halifax and just use some kind of improvised minimal stadium with temporary seating. Sort of along the lines that the one the Tiger-Cats used in Guelph while Tim Hortons Field was under construction.

Yep. We all know how the story has gone since then.

Originally Posted by khabibulin

CPL salary cap is $1.2 million for players and off field employees. CFL salary cap is $8 million for players and off field employees. Add in travel, equipment, stadium rental and other expenses and most teams are hard pressed to make money at 22,000 fans per game.

Indeed. CFL doesn't make enough revenue to be economically feasible in most markets, and it certainly doesn't make enough for $100-200M stadiums to make any sense, either.

CPL isn't economically feasible yet, either, but at least they've been able to add teams and have a lineup of interested owners with steadily increasing revenue streams, COVID notwithstanding.

[khabibulin]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Yep. We all know how the story has gone since then.


Indeed. CFL doesn't make enough revenue to be economically feasible in most markets, and it certainly doesn't make enough for $100-200M stadiums to make any sense, either.

CPL isn't economically feasible yet, either, but at least they've been able to add teams and have a lineup of interested owners with steadily increasing revenue streams, COVID notwithstanding.

It's tough, but with a solid 25,000 to 35,000 fans per game the CFL will be ok. Amazingly enough it is the 3 largest cities in Canada that are having the most difficulties.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by khabibulin

CPL salary cap is $1.2 million for players and off field employees. CFL salary cap is $8 million for players and off field employees. Add in travel, equipment, stadium rental and other expenses and most teams are hard pressed to make money at 22,000 fans per game. A stadium to seat 25,000 fans, and be capable to expand to at least 35,000 for grey cup will cost at least $200 million. Hamilton is the example.

The problem is that there doesn't appear to be anyone important suggesting a decent middle ground between the $200 million stadium and something like the Wanderers Grounds. It's impractical to have a CFL team play in something as simple as that, but increasingly implausible to expect cities to dump millions into a stadium for a league that doesn't create that much economic activity.

The Halifax proposal was one such attempt at reaching that middle ground, but it was visually unappealing and marketed poorly. I continue to think the CFL's best bet when it comes to building new stadiums is to look at modular stadiums akin to Empire Field in Vancouver. Build a halfway decent stadium with good seats and atmosphere, get people hooked, and then renovate as required.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

The problem is that there doesn't appear to be anyone important suggesting a decent middle ground between the $200 million stadium and something like the Wanderers Grounds. It's impractical to have a CFL team play in something as simple as that, but increasingly implausible to expect cities to dump millions into a stadium for a league that doesn't create that much economic activity.

The Halifax proposal was one such attempt at reaching that middle ground, but it was visually unappealing and marketed poorly. I continue to think the CFL's best bet when it comes to building new stadiums is to look at modular stadiums akin to Empire Field in Vancouver. Build a halfway decent stadium with good seats and atmosphere, get people hooked, and then renovate as required.

Very true regarding the need for a reasonable middle ground. I think the CFL has likely scaled down its demands relative to where they once were. Back in the 80s and 90s it was said that Halifax needed a 30,000+ seat venue to make it work. Now 20,000 with some room to expand would probably seal the deal. (Of course, the 20,000 seater would probably cost far more than the 30,000 seater would have in the 1980s, but that's beside the point.)

I guess to know the true minimum size of a CFL stadium for Halifax you'd have to know the maximum operating loss a Halifax ownership group would be willing to endure, and work backwards from there. A 15,000 seat stadium would be easy enough to build, but would the losses be too great to make a team viable even if it ran at 100% capacity?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by someone123

One aspect that doesn't tend to come through clearly is that, for whatever reason (the promoters, bad PR, whatever), the CFL promotion in Halifax has been sold as a CFL development scheme with stadium rather than a push to get a single good stadium built in the municipality.

The fact is though that it is a CFL stadium development. On the Halifax section on here a couple years ago, some were pushing the idea that it needed to stop being called a CFL stadium and instead a "community stadium" would gather better PR. They said all the various community uses needed to be played up to convince people this was needed. Clips of high school rugby or something at Tim Hortons Field were put up to show the type of events this place could attract. That's all well and good if you want to pad the "event days" with those type of events. The problem is, other than the 10 or 11 CFL games a year and perhaps a generous possible couple concerts, you don't need seats, which are where the bulk of those couple hundred million dollars are coming from. Most of those community uses can be accommodated at an artificial turf field with lights and a few hundred bench seats.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

The fact is though that it is a CFL stadium development. On the Halifax section on here a couple years ago, some were pushing the idea that it needed to stop being called a CFL stadium and instead a "community stadium" would gather better PR. They said all the various community uses needed to be played up to convince people this was needed. Clips of high school rugby or something at Tim Hortons Field were put up to show the type of events this place could attract. That's all well and good if you want to pad the "event days" with those type of events. The problem is, other than the 10 or 11 CFL games a year and perhaps a generous possible couple concerts, you don't need seats, which are where the bulk of those couple hundred million dollars are coming from. Most of those community uses can be accommodated at an artificial turf field with lights and a few hundred bench seats.

I think the other important uses are more along the lines of the local pro soccer team, large concerts, and the universities including events like the Uteck Bowl. If they had gone the bare bones temporary seating route, gradually upgraded, and went for around 20,000 seats I think they could have had a site on public land and the costs would have been reasonable. If they had used the site to host some concerts and other things there would have been widespread support for the use of the site.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the other important uses are more along the lines of the local pro soccer team, large concerts, and the universities including events like the Uteck Bowl. If they had gone the bare bones temporary seating route, gradually upgraded, and went for around 20,000 seats I think they could have had a site on public land and the costs would have been reasonable. If they had used the site to host some concerts and other things there would have been widespread support for the use of the site.

I think that would have been a flop after a season or 2. People might have checked it out at first, as a novelty, and thought "this kind if sucks" and not bothered again. I don't think the CFL would have approved a team in such a temporary feeling, amateur setting to begin with.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

People might have checked it out at first, as a novelty, and thought "this kind if sucks" and not bothered again.

I don't think the local perception of the Wanderers is that they are crappy or less fun to attend because their stadium is not fancy enough. One of the advantages the CFL could have there is that it takes relatively little to be the biggest game in town. They do not need to have a stadium that competes with Toronto or Vancouver in order to get people in Halifax to buy local tickets.