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  #541  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2021, 6:58 PM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
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Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
Penn Station is WAY more important to the city than MSG is. Penn simply cannot properly serve the city unless MSG is completely out of the way. There is just no way around that. If MSG ceases to exist anywhere in the city, so be it.
The more I learn about this proposal, the more I hate it.

Keeping the repugnant eyesore that is MSG. Putting lipstick on a pig for Penn Station. Destroying a dozen historic buildings (all pre-wars), replacements are likely blue-clad boxes, no knockout towers.

The right answer was always simple: bulldoze MSG (Cuomo's such a self-professed big, strong macho man but is too scared to eminent domain a building owned by a family that is widely loathed?), rebuild Penn Station, add 500m supertalls to the northern sites currently occupied by lowrise trash.

Instead what we're getting: keeping MSG (and the evil owners who will feel empowered now), subpar Penn Station (still), mediocre skyscrapers, destroying historic buildings to the South.

Absolute trash. I hope Cuomo gets ousted for his corruption and we start over. The only even remotely acceptable part is the Vornado piece of the equation (sites 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).
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  #542  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2021, 7:20 PM
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The 60s urban renewal vibes are very concerning. They had better not demolish buildings and turn the land into parking lots for ten years while they build the project in phases.
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  #543  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2021, 9:09 PM
TonyNYC TonyNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
The Church was there before Penn Station was built. Yet it would have been torn down if at the time they thought they needed to. They go into specifics about the church, and other structures that will be demolished. But yeah, you would rather have it around for decoration. If it is what stands in the way of the expanded station, then yes, it is decoration. You see, that church is not essential to the fabric or existence of New York City.





Madison Square Garden, garbage though it may be, is far more essential to the city than that church. And where exactly would you move it? All the talk of moving the Garden is all fantasy at this point. The last, best option was to move it into the Farley building, and that opportunity was blown.


We are looking at somewhere around 16 million SF of office space here on the 7 Sites.. are they planning on building without anchor tenants?

15 Penn was put on hold since the financial crisis, ten years and counting because they haven't landed an anchor tenant. That building was only 2 mill sf.. with no anchor tenant.

16 million SF of new office space.. Sounds like wishful thinking that these buildings will get built especially with the continued build out around the Hudson Yards, 4 supertalls still in construction
coming online within a year or two.

Then you have the rezoning/upsizing going on around Grand Central.. 1 Vanderbilt, 270 Park, 350 Park, 343 Madison, Roosevelt and Commodore Hotel sites..

Doesn't bode well for the Empire Station office market..

Will the City need another business district with that much new office SF?

Last edited by TonyNYC; Feb 23, 2021 at 9:35 PM.
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  #544  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2021, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
Penn Station is WAY more important to the city than MSG is. Penn simply cannot properly serve the city unless MSG is completely out of the way. There is just no way around that. If MSG ceases to exist anywhere in the city, so be it.
That is not accurate. They could move MSG today, and it would do nothing to improve the circulation of pedestrian or rail traffic. Now, it would greatly improve the appearance, but MSG doesn't hinder the operation of Penn Station. Which is one of the main reasons they aren't moving it. The theater can be removed, because theaters are everywhere. You don't just pick up a massive arena and plop it down somewhere else. Especially if there's no real reason to do so, other than appearance. As was pointed out by the ESG, that would add unnecessary time and costs to the development. MSG is horrible to look at, but Penn Station still operates underneath.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
The more I learn about this proposal, the more I hate it.

Keeping the repugnant eyesore that is MSG. Putting lipstick on a pig for Penn Station. Destroying a dozen historic buildings (all pre-wars), replacements are likely blue-clad boxes, no knockout towers.
So you're argument is basically that you prefer pre-wars to glass buildings. Got it. Still makes no sense, and again - this was NEVER about MSG. This entire plan revolves around the expansion of Penn Station, pre-wars or not.




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Originally Posted by Hudson11 View Post
The 60s urban renewal vibes are very concerning. They had better not demolish buildings and turn the land into parking lots for ten years while they build the project in phases.
This project is definitely being built in phases, and much of it is already parking lots. As far as urban renewal, well the Vornado controlled sites were going to be redeveloped anyway. We've known this for years, and it's why that area exists as it does today. And the expansion site speaks for itself.




Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyNYC View Post
We are looking at somewhere around 16 million SF of office space here on the 7 Sites.. are they planning on building without anchor tenants?
Of course not.


Quote:
15 Penn was put on hold since the financial crisis, ten years and counting because they haven't landed an anchor tenant. That building was only 2 mill sf.. with no anchor tenant.
It was put on hold after they lost their anchor tenant, due to the financial crisis. And it hasn't been built because Vornado hasn't committed to doing so.



Quote:
16 million SF of new office space.. Sounds like wishful thinking that these buildings will get built especially with the continued build out around the Hudson Yards, 4 supertalls still in construction
coming online within a year or two.

Then you have the rezoning/upsizing going on around Grand Central.. 1 Vanderbilt, 270 Park, 350 Park, 343 Madison, Roosevelt and Commodore Hotel sites..

Doesn't bode well for the Empire Station office market..

Will the City need another business district with that much new office SF?
Well, did it bode well for the Hudson Yards to rezone for 30 msf? Did it bode well for midtown east to rezone for massive office towers there? There are always critics who say what "you don't need", as they did with those rezonings. And yet here we are, watching towers get built in both districts. That's why I'm so happy that we have people in place that know you have to plan for these things - that planning takes years - and won't sit around waiting until there is a need to find locations where you can suddenly put up massive office towers. That's now how a world class city operates. There will always be new office towers in New York City. What there won't always be is new land on which to build them. That's where the zoning comes in, and why you ignore the critics who only think in terms of today, and not the future.
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  #545  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2021, 10:39 PM
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For NYguy I wanted to ask you if for site 2 a possible tower will exceed the indicated height of 1,300 ft. And also the two towers must necessarily be rectangular in shape?
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  #546  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2021, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Sky88 View Post
For NYguy I wanted to ask you if for site 2 a possible tower will exceed the indicated height of 1,300 ft. And also the two towers must necessarily be rectangular in shape?
Again, those heights are illustrative of the zoning. There isn't even a developer selected for site 2, we have no way of knowing what the height will be. What they give is an indication - it will be tall, and it will taper as it gets taller. Consider what they are showing you to be a minimum height (also, the heights shown are for last occupied floor).











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  #547  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2021, 10:49 PM
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Ok. thank you.
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  #548  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 5:00 AM
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If we want to get involved with this project (to oppose it lol) how would we go about doing so?
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  #549  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 5:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
The more I learn about this proposal, the more I hate it.

Keeping the repugnant eyesore that is MSG. Putting lipstick on a pig for Penn Station. Destroying a dozen historic buildings (all pre-wars), replacements are likely blue-clad boxes, no knockout towers.

The right answer was always simple: bulldoze MSG (Cuomo's such a self-professed big, strong macho man but is too scared to eminent domain a building owned by a family that is widely loathed?), rebuild Penn Station, add 500m supertalls to the northern sites currently occupied by lowrise trash.

Instead what we're getting: keeping MSG (and the evil owners who will feel empowered now), subpar Penn Station (still), mediocre skyscrapers, destroying historic buildings to the South.

Absolute trash. I hope Cuomo gets ousted for his corruption and we start over. The only even remotely acceptable part is the Vornado piece of the equation (sites 4, 5, 6, 7, 8).
If you hate it, start speaking out about it.
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  #550  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 2:04 PM
TonyNYC TonyNYC is offline
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"It was put on hold after they lost their anchor tenant, due to the financial crisis. And it hasn't been built because Vornado hasn't committed to doing so".


It wasn't built because they could not land another anchor tenant.. nothing to do with Vornado's lack of commitment.


"Well, did it bode well for the Hudson Yards to rezone for 30 msf? Did it bode well for midtown east to rezone for massive office towers there? There are always critics who say what "you don't need", as they did with those rezonings. And yet here we are, watching towers get built in both districts. That's why I'm so happy that we have people in place that know you have to plan for these things - that planning takes years - and won't sit around waiting until there is a need to find locations where you can suddenly put up massive office towers. That's now how a world class city operates. There will always be new office towers in New York City. What there won't always be is new land on which to build them. That's where the zoning comes in, and why you ignore the critics who only think in terms of today, and not the future.[/QUOTE]"


There was a need for the 30 MSF of the Hudson Yards as midtown's office building stock aged. There was very few new towers going up over the decades. The reason for the rezoning of Midtown East is a prime example of old stock and a need for new office buildings.

By the time these Empire Station Towers rise, they will be way behind the 8 ball with the Hudson Yards 30 MSF+ complete and a list of supertalls built out in Midtown East, another 20-25 MSF (1 Vanderbilt, Roosevelt hotel, Commodore Hotel, 270 and 350 Park, 343 Madison, etc).

That's 50- 60 MSF of new office space that will beat Empire Station to the punch.. there is only so many anchor tenants to go around to gobble up millions of SF!
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  #551  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 8:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
If we want to get involved with this project (to oppose it lol) how would we go about doing so?
Next hearing is March 29th.


https://esd.ny.gov/sites/default/fil...structions.pdf
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  #552  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 8:49 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyNYC View Post
It wasn't built because they could not land another anchor tenant.. nothing to do with Vornado's lack of commitment.
Um, excuse me. Vornado has alternately canceled this tower as it considered renovating to hotel or turning the hotel into an entertainment complex. We've even had it in cancellation a couple of times. They were able to do so because the Hotel Pennsylvania continued to perform. With the hotel all but dead, and action being taken on the area, the decision is to move forward with the tower.


Quote:
There was a need for the 30 MSF of the Hudson Yards as midtown's office building stock aged. There was very few new towers going up over the decades. The reason for the rezoning of Midtown East is a prime example of old stock and a need for new office buildings.

By the time these Empire Station Towers rise, they will be way behind the 8 ball with the Hudson Yards 30 MSF+ complete and a list of supertalls built out in Midtown East, another 20-25 MSF (1 Vanderbilt, Roosevelt hotel, Commodore Hotel, 270 and 350 Park, 343 Madison, etc).

That's 50- 60 MSF of new office space that will beat Empire Station to the punch.. there is only so many anchor tenants to go around to gobble up millions of SF!
You make absolutely no sense. Why do you think there was a rezoning of midtown east after the Hudson Yards rezoning? Did you think the HY rezoning was the final answer to the aged stock of NYC??? Do you even know how much office space Manhattan has?

There is a reason it's called "planning", and a reason why there is zoning. You don't just put up millions of square feet of office space anywhere in any city. There is a reason why cities have a commercial core, or a downtown area where most large buildings can rise, and not just scattered willy nilly around town. That all comes from planning, and New York City, like most cities, PLANs. That's the reason an entire city's worth of skyscrapers has gone up on the west side, why it's happening on the east side, and will continue here - especially here with it's abundance of mass transit. And also, in case you didn't know, it's why these towers are phased in over decades. Because they CAN. All made possible by planning and zoning.
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  #553  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 11:49 PM
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I'm hoping to get at least one 500-600m tower out of this.
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  #554  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2021, 3:50 AM
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I'm hoping to get a train station worthy of the greatest city in the world out of this.
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  #555  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2021, 5:57 AM
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im hoping to get new gateway tunnels instead of just patching up the old ones so we can get more service and bring more people to these new office buildings.
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  #556  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2021, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by newyorker View Post
I'm hoping to get at least one 500-600m tower out of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
I'm hoping to get a train station worthy of the greatest city in the world out of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
im hoping to get new gateway tunnels instead of just patching up the old ones so we can get more service and bring more people to these new office buildings.

Be good boys, and Santa will see what he can do.
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  #557  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:15 AM
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CB5 meeting...


https://www.cb5.org/cb5m/calendar/2021-march/#landmarks

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Wednesday, March 3rd, 2021, at 6:00pm
Video Conference
https://bit.ly/3uskYek

Layla Law-Gisiko, Chair

Agenda

Empire State Development presentation of the Draft Environmental Impact Statement for the Penn Station redevelopment proposal.
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  #558  
Old Posted Yesterday, 8:48 PM
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From my NYC model:











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