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  #101  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 3:51 AM
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Pfizer's kinda cute, I like the patterning on its facade- I'd consider giving that one the 425 Park Avenue treatment. Keep some of the existing structure and make it bigger, give it a new facade that's a sleek and updated interpretation of what it had before. So an upsize and upgrade, pretty much.

As for the building swap, somebody mentioned 300 Park Avenue as a possible candidate- I don't think that one's landmarked. And I think 300 Park is right close to that church on Park Avenue (can't remember the name) which is apparently planning to sell its air rights.
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  #102  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 4:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Prezrezc View Post
None of those in that article are worth it.

Let the NIMBYS knock their socks of here if they want.

Indeed, even the well-intentioned preervationist might have a problem finding a leg to stand on.
But think of the children!
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  #103  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 5:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyllisJerry71 View Post
NYguy, I just want to say that your posts are always extremely well-written and make some valid points, but given the fact that there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of other midcentury towers in Midtown East which are of far worse architectural quality and quality of office space, particularly in the immediate vicinity of this tower along the western side of Park Avenue, there is absolutely no way to justify the demolition of this building. Chase owns the land? How hard would it be for them to work out a deal with Colgate-Palmolive to swap out 270 with their white whale of a headquarters at 300 Park? If not, Chase has more than enough money to purchase one of the numerous other sites in the vicinity. Hell, if the city’s so involved in this process, there’s no reason at all that they couldn’t help work out some kind of deal with the owner of a truly outdated building somewhere else in Midtown East—even using eminent domain if it’s that important to keep Chase in the neighborhood. The building doesn’t function for Chase anymore? They’re ONE occupant out of millions of businesses in this city. See, for example, Colgate-Palmolive. I doubt that a toothpaste company is gonna require 20ft ceilings anytime soon—otherwise they would have demo’d their own building already. Every other amenity you’ve argued this building lacks has in fact been added by Chase over the years, or could be created without altering the exterior of the building. Hell, how many smaller businesses would kill for a Park Avenue address? Why couldn’t all or part of the building be renovated as some kind of innovation hub for multiple small tenants? It could be a tremendous boon to job creation in the city without sacrificing the architectural fidelity of this building. Just because it’s not right for single-tenant occupancy by a very specific group of large financial companies doesn’t mean it’s not viable for the businesses that make up the other 95% of the American economy. FWIW, I’d just like to add that 425 Park, as of yesterday, is still only something like 30% leased if I recall correctly. Make of that what you will.

In short, THERE IS NO REASON TO TEAR THIS BUILDING DOWN. The impact of its preservation on the survival of Midtown East as a business district will be negligible. Those of you who have argued in favor of it have proven once again that while SSP may be a skyscraper forum, it is definitely not an architecture forum.

Side note—if others who are in favor of landmarking this building have not done so already, I would suggest reaching out to feminist organizations and making them aware of Natalie de Blois’s role as one of the primary designers of 270. As far as I am aware, this was the first skyscraper to be designed primarily by a woman and this fact should be presented along with any appeal to the LPC. It may cause them to reconsider their earlier decision on 270’s historical significance.
Goodness, you just don't get it at all. I'm to the point where I don't even want to bother to explain it anymore.



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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
On the contrary, there couldn't be a stronger justification for demolishing this property.

The world's biggest bank owns the property and wants to demolish it, and there's absolutely nothing preventing it from doing so (a very good thing, I may add; the existing structure is mediocre at best).
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
What would be the point? The existing site is perfectly located, right next to Grand Central, in the middle of the Chase "campus", and the smaller wedding cake buildings in Midtown East generally have too small footprints and insufficient zoning rights (and quite a few are landmarked).

And I can't think of a single wedding cake building with this rezoning potential. The highest development potential is only for the blocks nearest Grand Central.

This development is exactly what was intended under the rezoning. You can't build anything in this neighborhood without tearing down a huge building from another era.
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
...And I bet you all these buildings will have cherished defenders too. You can't build anything in Midtown East without demolishing something substantial. There are almost no tenements or substandard crap in Midtown East.

At least you and some of the others get it.
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  #104  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 5:15 AM
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On another note, as we try to imagine what will replace the existing building, who will design it, and what it will look like, some pics from Summer Streets last August.
The rebirth of midtown east, starting with One Vanderbilt, and now Chase...























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  #105  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 5:44 AM
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Going back a little earlier...


http://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.co...-270-park.html

The Lost Hotel Marguery -- No. 270 Park Avenue



Quote:
In 1913 the architecturally sumptuous Grand Central Terminal replaced the old Grand Central Depot. Its construction was accompanied by the electrification of railroad tracks running down Park Avenue and their being covered over by a planted boulevard.

Suddenly Park Avenue—a rather marginal thoroughfare hitherto—had the potential of a high-class residential street like nearby Madison and Fifth Avenues. At the same time luxurious residential hotels and house-like apartments had become fashionable. It would all come together in a staggeringly ambitious project at No. 270 Park Avenue.

Real estate titan Dr. Charles V. Paterno (he earned his medical degree in 1899 at Columbia University; but did not practice) formed the Vanderbilt Av. Realty Corp. and commissioned the architectural firm of Warren & Wetmore to design design a massive U-shaped neo-Renaissance building stretching from Madison to Park Avenue, and from 47th to 48th Streets.






At the time of this photo, the train yards were not fully covered. photo by Wurts Bros. from the collection of the Museum of the City of New York









http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/15/ny...ity/15fyi.html

A Grande Dame Long Gone

By MICHAEL POLLAK
JULY 15, 2007


Quote:
The Marguery Hotel and Apartments, at 270 Park Avenue, were approached through a 60-foot-high Italian arch that served as the carriage entrance. The complex, which filled the block between Park and Madison, surrounded a 250-foot-long Italianate garden court.

The hotel was built in 1917, and at the time it was considered the city’s largest and most expensively decorated apartment house. But its reputation as a hotel declined over the decades, and in 1948, the hotel and restaurant were closed, although some apartments remained occupied.

In the 1940s, Time Inc. had an option on the property to tear it down for a new headquarters. Reminiscing years later for an oral history at Columbia University, Andrew Heiskell, the company’s former chairman, said, “Instead of this being the fancy hotel that we thought it was, it was heavily populated by ladies of the night and by gambling outfits.” The company sold the option.

https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/2...0park%20avenue











******************************************************




http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...als-in-midtown

Zoning change triggers spike of deals in Midtown

February 25, 2018


Quote:
When the Midtown East rezoning plan was approved during the summer, the de Blasio administration said it would take more than two decades for the full effects to be seen. In that period, officials predicted office towers would sprout up on 16 development sites throughout the 78-block district. But if last week is any indication, big changes are coming much sooner.

First JPMorgan Chase announced that it would demolish its headquarters at 270 Park Ave.—a site not even on the city’s list—and construct a 2.5 million-square-foot office tower in its place.
Quote:
Crain’s also reported last week that the Archdiocese of New York has filed preliminary paperwork for an air-rights transfer of its own. It was unclear exactly what the church had in mind, but St. Patrick’s Cathedral is sitting on a gold mine of about 1 million square feet of unused development rights. Even at the minimum price per square foot, that equates to $300 million, with roughly $60 million of that going to the public-improvement fund. Observers believe that the church already has a buyer in mind for a portion of those rights, and it is not JPMorgan. If confirmed, that would mean that two projects are already in the works as a result of the rezoning.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/jpmorga...ers-1519217001

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Last edited by NYguy; Feb 26, 2018 at 6:07 AM.
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  #106  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 8:21 AM
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With 2.5 million-square-footof office available you could think of a tower look like Fosters 2 WTC Tower.

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  #107  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 5:25 PM
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I can't believe this is the most economical way to build a larger headquarters.
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  #108  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 5:41 PM
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Many of our most cherished and celebrated towers replaced something that only stood 20-30 years and who's replacement probably also seemed uneconomical and unnecessary at the time.
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  #109  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 5:47 PM
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If the underlying situation were different, could the tower have been converted tp resi?
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  #110  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2018, 9:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerton View Post
I can't believe this is the most economical way to build a larger headquarters.
Within the scope of midtown east, believe it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Prezrezc View Post
If the underlying situation were different, could the tower have been converted tp resi?
I think anything could be converted to resi.



Quote:
https://therealdeal.com/2017/08/11/m...-hudson-yards/

Midtown East has been rezoned. Just don’t expect another Hudson Yards
Existing leases, construction complexities & other factors mean large-scale change isn't likely for decades


By Kathryn Brenzel
August 11, 2017



Leading up to the rezoning, the City Planning Commission identified 16 sites — many composed of multiple buildings — that are likely to take advantage
of the density bonus in the next 20 years or so. The site that stands to gain the most space under the rezoning is the so-called Pfizer site,
the pharmaceutical giant’s Headquarters On East 42nd Street. Under the rezoning, the site can add 781,869 square feet of space — bringing its total
to nearly 1.9 million square feet.

...Cushman & Wakefield’s Bob Knakal believes that the Pfizer site is one of the only properties in the district that is likely to take advantage of the rezoning
anytime soon. Many of the sites identified by the city have multiple owners and have tenants whose leases don’t end for several years.


This is a coup for tower development in midtown east. Though not as large as the footprint of towers in the Hudson Yards, this one will be larger than even One Vanderbilt.
It will require no wholesale demolition of multiple towers to achieve this, the only comparable thing in east midtown being the planned tower at the Pfizer site.

There will be no need to wait years for a site assimilation (One Vanderbilt took a decade), no need to wait out tenants. In one bold move, east midtown will get a new,
state of the art 2.5 msf office tower, comparable with the best today's new towers has to offer.

As Chase had been looking to move out of the district, this site was not even considered up for redevelopment in the Midtown East rezoning. It stands just at the core,
with a 23-25 FAR, though it would have to purchase air rights to achieve that. The City uses a similar tactic for the Hudson Yards towers.










Using some older aerials, a look at where this tower stands in the overall scope of Manhattan.































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  #111  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 12:29 AM
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THis is a city like no other!!
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  #112  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 3:10 AM
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http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...als-in-midtown

Zoning change triggers spike of deals in Midtown

February 25, 2018

Quote:
Crain’s also reported last week that the Archdiocese of New York has filed preliminary paperwork for an air-rights transfer of its own. It was unclear exactly what the church had in mind, but St. Patrick’s Cathedral is sitting on a gold mine of about 1 million square feet of unused development rights. Even at the minimum price per square foot, that equates to $300 million, with roughly $60 million of that going to the public-improvement fund. Observers believe that the church already has a buyer in mind for a portion of those rights, and it is not JPMorgan. If confirmed, that would mean that two projects are already in the works as a result of the rezoning.

Seems this was accurate.


https://therealdeal.com/2018/02/26/j...for-new-tower/

JPMorgan Chase strikes big air rights deal
Bank plans to buy roughly 700K sf from Grand Central Terminal owners


February 26, 2018


Quote:
It looks like JPMorgan Chase will buy nearly 700,000 square feet of air rights from Grand Central to build its new 2.5 million-square-foot office tower in Midtown East.

...MSD Capital and TF Cornerstone own a majority of the 1.35 million square feet of air rights at Grand Central and are planning to sell nearly 700,000 square feet for $210 million or so, charging roughly $300 per square foot. The owners and JPMorgan Chase will have to contribute about $40 million to public realm improvements, as required by the rezoning.



http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...state-20180226

Grand Central's air rights could make new Park Avenue megatower possible
Talks underway with JPMorgan Chase


By Daniel Geiger


Quote:
Grand Central Terminal is the biggest repository for air rights in Midtown East, according to Robert Shapiro, the founder of City Center Real Estate, a firm that specializes in air-rights sales. According to a study by City Center, St. Patrick’s has 1.2 million square feet of air rights, St. Bartholomew’s Church has 646,000 and Central Synagogue has 155,000. Other landmarks in the neighborhood have smaller amounts.
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  #113  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 3:55 AM
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Here's a quick mockup of what this could look like in the skyline:


270 PARK VISION by scottbarnholt, on Flickr

Original Photo Credit:
Untitled by Stefan Georgi, on Flickr
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  #114  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 9:12 AM
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Doesn’t anyone else think this is a shame? There’s an elegance to 270 and 277 across the street from each other.

Too bad they can’t just buy 245 Park from HNA (the Chinese insurer that bought it last year... might be looking to sell?), kick out SocGen et al, and tear down that piece of crap.
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  #115  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Doesn’t anyone else think this is a shame? There’s an elegance to 270 and 277 across the street from each other.
I used to work in 277, right out of college.

It has bigger floorplates than 270 so probably less likely to be demolished. But I could see it happening, one day.
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  #116  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 1:11 PM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Though not as large as the footprint of towers in the Hudson Yards, this one will be larger than even One Vanderbilt.
It will require no wholesale demolition of multiple towers to achieve this, the only comparable thing in east midtown being the planned tower at the Pfizer site.
No this site is as large as the 30 HY parcel, and larger then the 50 HY parcel.
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  #117  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 3:05 PM
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Agreed. The relationship between the two is quite nice. Sure its a good location bu there's so many other buildings I'd rather see demolished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
Doesn’t anyone else think this is a shame? There’s an elegance to 270 and 277 across the street from each other.

Too bad they can’t just buy 245 Park from HNA (the Chinese insurer that bought it last year... might be looking to sell?), kick out SocGen et al, and tear down that piece of crap.
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  #118  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 3:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbarn View Post
Here's a quick mockup of what this could look like in the skyline:


270 PARK VISION by scottbarnholt, on Flickr

Original Photo Credit:
Untitled by Stefan Georgi, on Flickr
I think it will be bulkier. I'm still interested in who exactly is going to design this tower. My money is on either SOM or KPF, and you can throw in BIG as well. But it wouldn't surprise me if they went another way.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
No this site is as large as the 30 HY parcel, and larger then the 50 HY parcel.
All the more reason this building has outlived its usefulness on this site.




One more thing I forgot to mention earlier...

Quote:
The headquarters will house 15,000 of the bank’s employees and could be between 70 and 75 stories, depending on how wide its footprint is, said a person with knowledge of the company’s plans.

That would be more than most of the new office towers. 30 Hudson has 68 floors not counting the top mechanical and One Vanderbilt has 58 floors.


http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/BS...de=ES989962867

http://a810-bisweb.nyc.gov/bisweb/BS...de=ES684858651
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  #119  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
All the more reason this building has outlived its usefulness on this site.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...kyscraper.html

A good obituary on the building. The last paragraph seems worth repeating:

"And so the destruction of 270 Park Avenue will act out a ruthless architectural Darwinism, which treats buildings as mere financial tools, to be discarded when they become a burden or a constraint. Modernist architects helped formulate that philosophy. Their style can have little claim to reverence, when it cleansed away so much history without sentimentality or nostalgia, and when it fetishized the use of technology that was more easily discarded than repaired. And yet a great building is more than just an envoy from a particular architectural past; it’s a statement that aspiration is worthwhile, that quality has value, that urban life is not just a matter of metrics. If New York can’t distinguish standouts from knockoffs, it doesn’t deserve the next generation of architecture. And then it becomes a disposable city."
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  #120  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2018, 6:56 PM
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the old alliterative principle of FOrm Following Function, particularly applied to highrise office developments, used to work when certain business modalities and technical limitations held sway.

Thankfully nowadays we have quality-level architects and developers who can work with today's environment, combine that with aesthetic considerations and make the neccesary changes to a city's viability needs easier to meet.

Another observation is that there are many modern towers in the City that maintain the minimalist, yet pleasingly simplistic artistic vision of the Internationalist school and somehow transfer them to Modernist/PoMo towers.

The Setai Fifth Ave. and the Bloomberg/Alexander's Tower readily spring to mind. 100 E 53rd, 103 E 50th and 277 Fifth play a bit more with the idea without losing focus.
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