The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[adamuptownsj]

Old tenements burned down, reached EOL, got demolished for the throughway, etc almost entirely by the early 90s. Much of what had been gradually replacing them was postwar SFH stock everywhere from Quispamsis to Fundy Heights. Much of this still stands in reasonable condition, there's just not nearly as many 'units'. Maybe.

Much of that big gain was from eating Lancaster and Simonds in 1967, so that dropoff from 89K to 80K between 1971 and 1981 must have been unpleasant to be here for. Then only 6K the next decade, and 5K by 1991. So the severe decline had basically halted in the early 90s, which is when the we start seeing some new subdivisions over east and in Millidgeville.

That's my layman's opinion. The war homes' lifespans are a big open ended question right now. Their survival is the only thing keeping housing prices vaguely realistic, because no one's building more.

It's still crazy to think how dense Saint John proper must have been pre-70s.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

It's still crazy to think how dense Saint John proper must have been pre-70s.

It's why Boomers complain about the Uptown today - in their youth it actually would have been full of bars and clubs. A bit ironic given the trends in housing since then.

If SJ's inner population peaked in 1971, and the Saint John Throughway and Harbour Bridge opened in 1968, then I think it's possible to add one plus one to equal two. I can't remember when everything in the Portland Valley was bulldozed but that was the first thing that came to mind regarding large population loss.

[Gnarly]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I’ve always been interested in demographics. Wondering if anyone on this forum can shed some light on this:

In 1971, Saint John had 89,000 residents (roughly same as current day Moncton).
Starting in the 80’s there was an outflow to the suburban communities and we dropped to around 67,000 in the mid 2000’s. Nowadays the latest estimate I saw was approximately 72,500. The latest StanCan quarterly labour report suggests the city is growing by 200 per month.

From 1971 to today we lost a lot of housing stock, but overall we gained a lot more as new neighborhoods were built. Yet with more housing units we are still down almost 20,000 from our all time high. Despite this, housing vacancy rates is hovering around 1% and MLS listings traditionally had over 1700 listings now hover in the 300 range. So clearly we have a lot of new residents, but I’m curious why we aren’t in the 80,000 range.

The only thing I can think of is back in the 1970’s and before, Saint John had the typical families with 4, 5, or upwards of 8 kids. Our Forest Hills bungalow was a family of 8 and all the other bungalows I recall had large families. Nowadays most families are 1, maybe 2 kids (why half the schools in city closed).

I think there are 2 current trends happening that will increase the density again:
First, there is a lot of immigration to the city, and from what I’m seeing when I go to Walmart and Costco is they have very large families. I see countless families with 5 or 6 kids in tow. Secondly, with skyrocketing rent and housing costs, I hear of antidotal evidence that folks are pooling their resources and taking on a roommate situation. So apartments of 1 are now apartments of 2 or more occupants. The vacated apartments are quickly rented out due to demand from folks moving from out of province. So theoretically we could be on the trend to quickly juice up our population numbers again.

Any thoughts / theories on this? I’m curious what others think or predict.

After the drydock closed, thousands of good paying jobs and the people who worked them were gone. The Federal Government has been screwing Saint John for years.

[Helladog]

Having been born in '72 and living in the core for a few years after, I remember a Ton of foot traffic; at pedestrian crossings there would be a scramble of people in both directions as lights would change, with dozens of people crossing at once. That’s the kind of thing you don’t see anymore uptown, but similar to what you may see in Halifax. I remember being dragged to stores like Ideal and Calps for clothing, and Food City, and Dominion for food. There simply isn’t the same level of options or choice anymore.

I don’t see why a small grocery store won’t be found for 99 King. With a growing base, and few other grocery options, it would make sense. I guess grocery chains prefer large big box style stores over smaller ones.

Back then, there was no east side retail at all, much of one’s shopping could be done uptown, even before Brunswick Square. It was a much busier place.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Having been born in '72 and living in the core for a few years after, I remember a Ton of foot traffic; at pedestrian crossings there would be a scramble of people in both directions as lights would change, with dozens of people crossing at once. That’s the kind of thing you don’t see anymore uptown, but similar to what you may see in Halifax. I remember being dragged to stores like Ideal and Calps for clothing, and Food City, and Dominion for food. There simply isn’t the same level of options or choice anymore.

I don’t see why a small grocery store won’t be found for 99 King. With a growing base, and few other grocery options, it would make sense. I guess grocery chains prefer large big box style stores over smaller ones.

Back then, there was no east side retail at all, much of one’s shopping could be done uptown, even before Brunswick Square. It was a much busier place.

I remember Ideal store lol. And ducking head not to hit on ceiling at Pascal Emerson’s
I’m wondering if Sam’s variety guy could set up a nice small grocery store instead of the big chains.

[GUB]

Originally Posted by Gnarly

After the drydock closed, thousands of good paying jobs and the people who worked them were gone. The Federal Government has been screwing Saint John for years.

Nailed it! That and the opening up (ice breaking) of the St. Lawrence Seaway diverting SJ bound ships to Montreal (another Fed screw job). Although I've heard there are grand plans for Port SJ...

[Franco401]

Originally Posted by GUB

Nailed it! That and the opening up (ice breaking) of the St. Lawrence Seaway diverting SJ bound ships to Montreal (another Fed screw job). Although I've heard there are grand plans for Port SJ...

This is untrue.

a) The St Lawrence Seaway allowed ocean-going vessels onto the Great Lakes. The work undertaken had no effect whatsoever on the part of the St Lawrence below Montreal. It opened Toronto up to a huge freight increase which never actually arrived as containerization allowed cargo to be shipped by rail and truck from Montreal, Saint John or anywhere else further east.

The introduction of ice-breaking was an important milestone but it coincided with a much, much bigger change in the entire global shipping industry.

b) Halifax is conveniently left out discussions of Port SJ decline. While it's tempting to blame Central Canada for all our problems, Halifax has far, far outpaced Saint John throughout every single period of Canadian history. As surface transportation links improve, the efficiency of transporting cargo a few hundred kilometres more by ship declines, by definition. The twinning of Route 2 throughout the province did more to hurt Port SJ than any aquatic improvements on the St Lawrence.

c) The one and only "Fed Screwjob" favouring Ontario and Quebec over the Maritimes was Confederation. One of the great promises of creating a united Dominion was that of slowly taking control of Rupert's Land and eventually everything north of the 49th. This was never really in the cards for the Atlantic Provinces. Confederation had probably more benefits than harms, but this harm was totally underestimated until way too late. It was inevitable, but hardly predictable, that sovereignty and protectionism would lead Ottawa to heavily restrict NB's once-blooming trade with New England.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by Helladog

Having been born in '72 and living in the core for a few years after, I remember a Ton of foot traffic; at pedestrian crossings there would be a scramble of people in both directions as lights would change, with dozens of people crossing at once. That’s the kind of thing you don’t see anymore uptown, but similar to what you may see in Halifax. I remember being dragged to stores like Ideal and Calps for clothing, and Food City, and Dominion for food. There simply isn’t the same level of options or choice anymore.

I don’t see why a small grocery store won’t be found for 99 King. With a growing base, and few other grocery options, it would make sense. I guess grocery chains prefer large big box style stores over smaller ones.

Back then, there was no east side retail at all, much of one’s shopping could be done uptown, even before Brunswick Square. It was a much busier place.

I hope with Fundy Quay and 99 King being built will help increase the "foot traffic" of the uptown core. It's a shame landing a grocery store has been so difficult as that would give people more incentives to not need a car.

[cdnguys]

Speaking of the port, there is a huge news nugget that is underreported locally.
CP Rail purchased Kansas City Southern railway - the only class 1 railway in the USA with an extensive network into and throughout Mexico. This gives Port SJ a huge marketing advantage over Halifax because freight to and from Mexico can seamlessly get to port. Port of Halifax lost out on that advantage when CN was not permitted to purchase KCS rail. This gives our port at least a 3 day advantage. Currently the Port SJ is at 90,000 TEUs and CP executives are aiming for 800,000 TEUs. If they can reach that number SJ would by far be busier container wise than Halifax. Also many don’t realize when measured by “tonnage” SJ is second busiest in Canada after Metro Vancouver.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I hope with Fundy Quay and 99 King being built will help increase the "foot traffic" of the uptown core. It's a shame landing a grocery store has been so difficult as that would give people more incentives to not need a car.

It will be a big boost especially since these projects will spur further housing development. It will be unfortunate if they proceed with the pedway system from Fundy Quay to Market Square - just takes foot traffic / vibrancy out of the public realm.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

I hope with Fundy Quay and 99 King being built will help increase the "foot traffic" of the uptown core. It's a shame landing a grocery store has been so difficult as that would give people more incentives to not need a car.

The Pedway system, as great as it is, makes Uptown streets look much more 'dead' than they otherwise would be. A lot of foot traffic is indoors through the colder months.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Speaking of the port, there is a huge news nugget that is underreported locally.
CP Rail purchased Kansas City Southern railway - the only class 1 railway in the USA with an extensive network into and throughout Mexico. This gives Port SJ a huge marketing advantage over Halifax because freight to and from Mexico can seamlessly get to port. Port of Halifax lost out on that advantage when CN was not permitted to purchase KCS rail. This gives our port at least a 3 day advantage. Currently the Port SJ is at 90,000 TEUs and CP executives are aiming for 800,000 TEUs. If they can reach that number SJ would by far be busier container wise than Halifax. Also many don’t realize when measured by “tonnage” SJ is second busiest in Canada after Metro Vancouver.

Good thing the port is working on that expansion now!
Exciting news. I wonder if this has anything to do with the plans for Saint John to be a stopping point for new cars that are being shipped. I know places like Dodge have manufacturing plants in Mexico.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Good thing the port is working on that expansion now!
Exciting news. I wonder if this has anything to do with the plans for Saint John to be a stopping point for new cars that are being shipped. I know places like Dodge have manufacturing plants in Mexico.

Would make sense. Apparently another big announcement coming - I think filling in the orphan parts of harbour enclosed by container terminal giving them a lot more acreage for storage / rail

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Would make sense. Apparently another big announcement coming - I think filling in the orphan parts of harbour enclosed by container terminal giving them a lot more acreage for storage / rail

Do we know what the rumour is for that "big announcement"? Or is it about the possible connection with Mexico etc.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Do we know what the rumour is for that "big announcement"? Or is it about the possible connection with Mexico etc.

I’m pretty sure it’s what cdnguys mentioned. MP Long has posted a number of times he’s working on it and has met with the federal minister of transportation.

[adamuptownsj]

Commercial development to replace most of Park Plaza motel with a mixed, two storey commercial space in two phases.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...3487764451328/

Interestingly, the old main office/current K's Cafe space is being renovated and expanded, and the rear, 24-unit motel structure will be renovated. I think there's a dozen units behind K's as well, no idea what is being done with these. Affordable housing? Long term stay? I know Irving still used this motel for shutdowns quite recently.

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Commercial development to replace most of Park Plaza motel with a mixed, two storey commercial space in two phases.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...3487764451328/

Interestingly, the old main office/current K's Cafe space is being renovated and expanded, and the rear, 24-unit motel structure will be renovated. I think there's a dozen units behind K's as well, no idea what is being done with these. Affordable housing? Long term stay? I know Irving still used this motel for shutdowns quite recently.

Interesting. Anything will be an improvement to this site. Here’s to renewed life for this tired property. Looking forward to the revitalization.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by RR Drummer

Interesting. Anything will be an improvement to this site. Here’s to renewed life for this tired property. Looking forward to the revitalization.

Oh, definitely. I just find the fact they're leaving much of the site intact unusual. I know the other motel complex further west on Rothesay Ave is coming down fully. Not sure how much demo has been done to it.

[RR Drummer]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Oh, definitely. I just find the fact they're leaving much of the site intact unusual. I know the other motel complex further west on Rothesay Ave is coming down fully. Not sure how much demo has been done to it.

I just drove by just. The back building is already being renovated and you can see other progress on the site starting to make it look better. Nice change and much needed for sure.

[JakeNB]

Hate to be a pessimist, but would be willing to bet that there will still be a big hole at the top of King Street this time next year. Any takers?