Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[rousseau]

I can practically hear some posters seething at what looks like my trite characterization above, that I'm dodging more weighty disagreements and taking the easy way out with potshots at the idiots in the barrel (yeah, both/all sides in our polarized times have got'em).

It's kinda true, I admit it. I do often wish I had the time and energy to respond to some of the more interesting posters, but the other participants who do eventually get drowned out by the usual crew who cannot tolerate ideological dissent, so I don't know if I'd bother even if I had the inclination.

It's a shame. If you want evidence of just how good the discussions used to be on SSP, search for kool maudit's posts and start reading from wherever his name pops up. I won't claim to have a comprehensive grasp on the internet as a whole (erm, can anybody?), but I daresay this was pretty much as good as it gets for interesting, witty and knowledgeable writing and interaction with a focus on Canada.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Well there's a first time for everything. You are very articulate but deliberately obtuse. You rarely say the objectionable thing, just ask questions and play both sides while thriving in the chaos that is created. Maybe this is your intention. If you do simply want to start arguments ("debates" if you prefer) then just admit it. Don't complain about stricter workplace HR rules but then say that you support them.

A devil’s advocate type role is often considered a useful one, it requires one to rethink and hone one’s viewpoint. Without people playing such roles a lazy groupthink takes over and lazy groupthink rarely leads to good outcomes (see the collapse of the Turkish economy, for example).

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I can practically hear some posters seething at what looks like my trite characterization above, that I'm dodging more weighty disagreements and taking the easy way out with potshots at the idiots in the barrel (yeah, both/all sides in our polarized times have got'em).

It's kinda true, I admit it. I do often wish I had the time and energy to respond to some of the more interesting posters, but the other participants who do eventually get drowned out by the usual crew who cannot tolerate ideological dissent, so I don't know if I'd bother even if I had the inclination.

It's a shame. If you want evidence of just how good the discussions used to be on SSP, search for kool maudit's posts and start reading from wherever his name pops up. I won't claim to have a comprehensive grasp on the internet as a whole (erm, can anybody?), but I daresay this was pretty much as good as it gets for interesting, witty and knowledgeable writing and interaction with a focus on Canada.

The internet really can obscure the personality differences and idiosyncracies of different posters. I've been around long enough and read enough posts to know that Acajack for example, probably disagrees with the vast majority of the things Trump and the MAGA crowd push for. I think he has a personality that wants to always keep discussion going and be seen as a good arbiter of said discussion, and so in a place that is majority liberal, he often is the one to toss out the other sides viewpoint for the sake of discussion.

If you don't have a good feel for the tendencies of certain posters, then it would be easy to interpret that as support for the viewpoints that can inhabit his posts.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The internet really can obscure the personality differences and idiosyncracies of different posters. I've been around long enough and read enough posts to know that Acajack for example, probably disagrees with the vast majority of the things Trump and the MAGA crowd push for. I think he has a personality that wants to always keep discussion going and be seen as a good arbiter of said discussion, and so in a place that is majority liberal, he often is the one to toss out the other sides viewpoint for the sake of discussion.

If you don't have a good feel for the tendencies of certain posters, then it would be easy to interpret that as support for the viewpoints that can inhabit his posts.

Sometimes it's fun to play the devil's advocate, and in specific situations where participants are very clear on each others values, it can be a useful way to come to a more full understanding of an issue.

But I would never walk into a room of strangers and play devil's advocate on anything but the most trivial issue. Real people are affected by issues and to play devil's advocate is crass when it is clear that you don't have a stake in the game.

I am also not a stranger anymore. I've been on this forum for fifteen years now save for a short break. If someone only ever plays the devil's advocate, it eventually strains credulity that they don't share the views they consistently espouse.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

You clearly never visited the Trump thread in the Skybar.

Or the George Floyd thread lol.

*Breonna Taylor gets killed by police who were at the wrong address*
Acajack: "well her ex is a drug dealer, so she was no angel"


*Racist Karen goes on rampage*
Acajack: "Oh gee, I can only imagine poor thing's gonna get cancelled, is there no chance for redemption!? Such is the sad state of society - just OBSERVING"

[urbandreamer]

Are Quebecers moving to Ontario for jobs? Everywhere I apply for jobs there's Quebec license plates and people speaking French-accented English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Are Quebecers moving to Ontario for jobs? Everywhere I apply for jobs there's Quebec license plates and people speaking French-accented English.

I have not heard anything about this.

Quebec has a pretty low unemployment rate and a labour shortage.

I mean, you'll always have a certain number of people trying their luck elsewhere, but I am unaware of anything inordinate going on.

[lio45]

I'm seeing a really unusually high amount of Ontario-plated vehicles on Quebec streets these days, I was just observing that and wondering what was with that. Maybe people are just more mobile? (You're observing the same (mirror) situation on your side of the border.)

[FrAnKs]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm seeing a really unusually high amount of Ontario-plated vehicles on Quebec streets these days, I was just observing that and wondering what was with that.

Visiting family / tourism for the holidays?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A devil’s advocate type role is often considered a useful one, it requires one to rethink and hone one’s viewpoint. Without people playing such roles a lazy groupthink takes over and lazy groupthink rarely leads to good outcomes (see the collapse of the Turkish economy, for example).

I agree although some of the supposed devil's advocate views are mainstream progressive opinion from 2012. At the end of the day it's interesting to see a range of views and it doesn't really matter if you don't agree with everybody on SSP about some issue.

I do worry about how, if you look around North America, mainstream views in one region are often seen as beyond the pale to even seriously consider in another region. These feel as much like religious schisms as they do differences that come down to rational debate given different viewpoints and incentives. I'd argue that the new policies often don't even make sense in their own regions. It's uncontroversial on here to point out how crazy parts of the US are about vaccines now for example. But the same kind of derangement exists for many issues. We should be able to at least engage with mainstream opinion from Quebec or Alberta or whatever. And people in Massachusetts should be able to calmly debate Texas policies.

[urbandreamer]

And similarly in Ontario, I'm seeing Quebec plates everywhere lol. I think there's probably hundreds of thousands of laid off restaurant/bar staff who are exploring the great divide.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I agree although some of the supposed devil's advocate views are mainstream progressive opinion from 2012. At the end of the day it's interesting to see a range of views and it doesn't really matter if you don't agree with everybody on SSP about some issue.
.

As you I know I strongly agree with this specific point. It's hardly a universally shared opinion though. (Less and less so, I'd argue.)

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by FrAnKs

Visiting family / tourism for the holidays?

Probably tourism on both sides. Visiting each other’s province was effectively the only place either of us could road trip to over the past 2 years, what with the US border being shut, the Maritime provinces doing the same, and Western Canada being too far away.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I do worry about how, if you look around North America, mainstream views in one region are often seen as beyond the pale to even seriously consider in another region. These feel as much like religious schisms as they do differences that come down to rational debate given different viewpoints and incentives. I'd argue that the new policies often don't even make sense in their own regions. It's uncontroversial on here to point out how crazy parts of the US are about vaccines now for example. But the same kind of derangement exists for many issues. We should be able to at least engage with mainstream opinion from Quebec or Alberta or whatever.

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...&postcount=807

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Probably tourism on both sides. Visiting each other’s province was effectively the only place either of us could road trip to over the past 2 years, what with the US border being shut, the Maritime provinces doing the same, and Western Canada being too far away.

School is also starting later than usual after the holidays so maybe people are talking advantage to stay a bit longer.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm seeing a really unusually high amount of Ontario-plated vehicles on Quebec streets these days, I was just observing that and wondering what was with that. Maybe people are just more mobile? (You're observing the same (mirror) situation on your side of the border.)

We recently arrived with our Ontario plates. But in three months they'll be swapped for a single Quebec plate!

[Loco101]

Did anyone notice that the protest in Quebec City had a lot of maple leaf flags?

That seemed very unusual for a protest there or pretty much anywhere in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Did anyone notice that the protest in Quebec City had a lot of maple leaf flags?

That seemed very unusual for a protest there or pretty much anywhere in Quebec.

Quebec right-wingers and their ilk tend to be federalists and proud Canadians.

They also often are infatuated with the US.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec right-wingers and their ilk tend to be federalists and proud Canadians.

They also often are infatuated with the US.

I was wondering if that was the case. I've witnessed some protests in both Montreal and Quebec City as well as in a couple smaller cities. I remember the pro-sovereignty ones in the 1990s that were quite left-wing and other ones that were quite leftist. Never saw a maple leaf flag in them of course. But I guess I've never seen a true right-wing protest in Quebec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I was wondering if that was the case. I've witnessed some protests in both Montreal and Quebec City as well as in a couple smaller cities. I remember the pro-sovereignty ones in the 1990s that were quite left-wing and other ones that were quite leftist. Never saw a maple leaf flag in them of course. But I guess I've never seen a true right-wing protest in Quebec.

There is a strong push (especially from a certain constituency of ROCers) that wants to label the Quebec nationalist and sovereignist movement as right wing or even far right, but all of its main incarnations tend be on the left or centre-left at a minimum.

The PQ even flirted with membership in the Socialist International at one point.

The federalist pro-Canada side in Quebec is still massively populated by people from the centre-centre-right all the way to the far right.

As I mentioned, the further right you get in Quebec the more pro-American the people you encounter become, and for these people "Canada" (ie the ROC) is a stepping stone to making Quebec more like the US.

They're not really favourable to Quebec doing its own thing at all, because they don't trust Quebec to not veer into statist leftism if left to its own devices.