Tucson Development Thread

[PHX31]

We shouldn't really get into a Tucson v. Phoenix pissing match. I agree with azliam that Phoenix stupidly bulldozed a large portion of the historic building and housing stock in and around downtown... and Tucson seems to have smartly/luckily kept a lot of it.

However, i completely disagre with poconoboy. While there may be a couple places that the UofA's proximity feeds into downtown Tucson, downtown Phoenix really offers much more than downtown Tucson can. Just for Poconoboy's information... From the obligitory stadium/arena/performing arts crowds (Suns, D-backs, Mercury, herberger, dodge, orpheum)... To the Washington Street clubs which have a bunch of young people - Bar Smith, PHX, Silver, even Majerles. To the scattered, but popular and growing dining scene (how many new unique/local restaurants have opened in the past couple years? I can think of probably a dozen.) To the Heritage Square scene - Pizzeria Bianco, Rose & Crown, etc. To probably the most popular to the younger/hipster crowd - Roosevelt Street which has Carly's, Lost Leaf, The Roosevelt, and those couple of restaurants/bars that were fate. On First Fridays nights that place is a madhouse and it extends to Grand Ave (which I really think could take off more than it already has... as long as they can get rid of some of those crappy businesses along Grand).

[kaneui]

In a boost to Tucson's growing biotech industry, the proposed Arizona Bioscience Park near I-10 gets some stimulus funds for infrastructure before starting Phase I in 2011:



UA Bioscience Park gets $4.7M
US funds to pay for roads, utilities, landscaping work

By Becky Pallack
ARIZONA DAILY STAR
08.25.2009

Federal stimulus money will help the University of Arizona start construction on its planned Arizona Bioscience Park. The Arizona Board of Regents and the University of Arizona won a $4.7 million grant from the federal Economic Development Administration, the federal agency said Monday. The tax dollars will be used to pay for roads, utilities and landscaping at the future park at East 36th Street and South Kino Parkway. Contractors will bid for the yearlong job and begin work in November or December, said Bruce Wright, UA associate vice president for economic development. "This is a big step forward in developing a core piece of the Tucson metro area," he said. The land could be ready for facilities construction in January 2011. A private development partner will help the UA bring investment capital and fill the buildings.

A master land-use plan approved by the Arizona Board of Regents in June includes spaces for university and high school use, student or faculty housing, research and development projects, laboratories, offices, a hotel and conference center, and open space. "The park really is intended to be something of value not only for the university but for the entire community," Wright said. It would allow startup companies and other bioscience companies suitable work spaces not found elsewhere in Tucson, he said. It would also help create jobs in the industry, which is a target for economic development in the state.

The UA is in discussions with some prospective tenants, Wright said. The 65-acre park will be part of a 357-acre development called The Bridges, which includes other housing and shopping-center projects. Flood-control improvements already have been made.

[Jsmscaleros]

Phoenix and Tucson are both struggling to find their identities at this point in time. We have two metropolitan areas in this state currently in the midst of rediscovering themselves for the 21st century.

There is tremendous potential in both to define what a city should be in the Sonoran desert - reshaping the sprawling suburbs that define the cityscape as the pendulum begins to swing from isolated car culture back to a more connected urban village.

We should be positive as we work toward making better cities and learn from each other's good and back ideas. The re-emergence of the streetcar, for example, has had positive impacts on both cities and will continue to do so as the Valley grows accustomed to LRT and the Tucson system continues to develop.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

Phoenix and Tucson are both struggling to find their identities at this point in time. We have two metropolitan areas in this state currently in the midst of rediscovering themselves for the 21st century.

There is tremendous potential in both to define what a city should be in the Sonoran desert - reshaping the sprawling suburbs that define the cityscape as the pendulum begins to swing from isolated car culture back to a more connected urban village.

We should be positive as we work toward making better cities and learn from each other's good and back ideas. The re-emergence of the streetcar, for example, has had positive impacts on both cities and will continue to do so as the Valley grows accustomed to LRT and the Tucson system continues to develop.

I think it is possible that we can have two vibrant and different metro areas in AZ. Phoenix may not have the history but has a much larger footprint, more commercial development downtown and has the opportunity to build on that (fill in the gaps) as well as bring in more residents (if those units can sell). I think Phoenix needs more apartment buildings or affordable housing downtown and I think the new ASU campus will help bring more life to downtown (I hope), and the LRT has certainly helped.

Tucson is quite a different animal. It has the university population living close, it has the history, walkability factor, but not the commercial investment, and it has a smaller footprint. It could use both affordable and luxury (to a smaller degree) housing downtown. Hopefully that will change and we'll get to see more commercial development occur and I think the downtown will be expanded to include other areas not considered "downtown". The new Fourth Avenue underpass has helped to re-connect Fourth with downtown and I think the streetcar will help to connect other areas.

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by PHX31

We shouldn't really get into a Tucson v. Phoenix pissing match. I agree with azliam that Phoenix stupidly bulldozed a large portion of the historic building and housing stock in and around downtown... and Tucson seems to have smartly/luckily kept a lot of it.

However, i completely disagre with poconoboy. While there may be a couple places that the UofA's proximity feeds into downtown Tucson, downtown Phoenix really offers much more than downtown Tucson can. Just for Poconoboy's information... From the obligitory stadium/arena/performing arts crowds (Suns, D-backs, Mercury, herberger, dodge, orpheum)... To the Washington Street clubs which have a bunch of young people - Bar Smith, PHX, Silver, even Majerles. To the scattered, but popular and growing dining scene (how many new unique/local restaurants have opened in the past couple years? I can think of probably a dozen.) To the Heritage Square scene - Pizzeria Bianco, Rose & Crown, etc. To probably the most popular to the younger/hipster crowd - Roosevelt Street which has Carly's, Lost Leaf, The Roosevelt, and those couple of restaurants/bars that were fate. On First Fridays nights that place is a madhouse and it extends to Grand Ave (which I really think could take off more than it already has... as long as they can get rid of some of those crappy businesses along Grand).

I completely disagree with your assertion. Really, if you haven't been to Tucson in the past couple of weeks, you have no idea. This is not a comparison on the number of bars/restaurants in Phoenix to Tucson. I am comparing the downtown areas solely on nightlife. There is a continuous corridor of nightlife activity from U of A to downtown Tucson. Phoenix doesn't have anything comparable. Last time I went to Downtown Phoenix on a Friday or Saturday night, there were no nightclubs that had people waiting half a block to get in.

Phoenix might have clusters of bars, but no continuous corridor.

[vertex]

Hmmm, if you combined the Scottsdale nightclub scene, Tempe's irreverence, and add DT Phoenix's infrastructure, you would have something much, much, much bigger and more interesting than anything Tucson can pull together.

4th ave. and Congress are cute, but let's not get carried away.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

I completely disagree with your assertion. Really, if you haven't been to Tucson in the past couple of weeks, you have no idea. This is not a comparison on the number of bars/restaurants in Phoenix to Tucson. I am comparing the downtown areas solely on nightlife. There is a continuous corridor of nightlife activity from U of A to downtown Tucson. Phoenix doesn't have anything comparable. Last time I went to Downtown Phoenix on a Friday or Saturday night, there were no nightclubs that had people waiting half a block to get in.

Phoenix might have clusters of bars, but no continuous corridor.

I have seen a lot more activity as well. Granted, school is back in session, but there's much more life on Congress as well. From Centro, Zen Rock all the way down to Hotel Congress, the Rialto, Maynards, through the new underpass to Fourth Ave and on over to University. The new streetcar will only help to connect these places even more.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by poconoboy61

I completely disagree with your assertion. Really, if you haven't been to Tucson in the past couple of weeks, you have no idea. This is not a comparison on the number of bars/restaurants in Phoenix to Tucson. I am comparing the downtown areas solely on nightlife. There is a continuous corridor of nightlife activity from U of A to downtown Tucson. Phoenix doesn't have anything comparable. Last time I went to Downtown Phoenix on a Friday or Saturday night, there were no nightclubs that had people waiting half a block to get in.

Phoenix might have clusters of bars, but no continuous corridor.

Well, it must depend on where you are and when you're there. Is there a continuous street in Phoenix? No... but I highly, highly doubt what you're talking about in Tucson has become like Beale Street in Memphis. Combine the northeast area of downtown Phoenix only (PHX, Silver, Bar Smith, Sky Lounge, Majerles, The District, Hanny's, maybe even to the AZ Center) and you've got bars/restaurants/upscale bars/cocktail lounges/and clubs. I really can't remember the last time the Bar Smith/Sky Lounge area didn't have a line after 11pm (although it's not a half-block college kids waiting to get in/fake ID line).

[azliam]

Originally Posted by vertex

Hmmm, if you combined the Scottsdale nightclub scene, Tempe's irreverence, and add DT Phoenix's infrastructure, you would have something much, much, much bigger and more interesting than anything Tucson can pull together.

4th ave. and Congress are cute, but let's not get carried away.

I believe we were comparing the downtowns of Phoenix (alone) and Tucson, which incidentally, the Tucson metro is still 1/4 the size of the Phoenix metro. In addition, the Tucson area also has other pockets of places with many restaurants and clubs - not to the degree of Scottsdale or Tempe, but they exist.

Originally Posted by PHX31

Well, it must depend on where you are and when you're there. Is there a continuous street in Phoenix? No... but I highly, highly doubt what you're talking about in Tucson has become like Beale Street in Memphis. Combine the northeast area of downtown Phoenix only (PHX, Silver, Bar Smith, Sky Lounge, Majerles, The District, Hanny's, maybe even to the AZ Center) and you've got bars/restaurants/upscale bars/cocktail lounges/and clubs. I really can't remember the last time the Bar Smith/Sky Lounge area didn't have a line after 11pm (although it's not a half-block college kids waiting to get in/fake ID line).

No, but all places start from somewhere and it is still a concentrated area bringing many people into downtown. In addition, I've been going to downtown Phoenix for years even before the Crowbar (when it existed) and Amsterdam were there, and I am now starting to see some momentum in downtown; however, it still isn't up to par with Tucson (this is only my opinion). I understand that downtown Phoenix gets crowded during First Fridays, but have you ever really seen downtown Tucson and Fourth Avenue during Club Crawl?

BTW, I'm 38, and the trendy clubs I go to have got plenty of people who aren't of the college crowd. In addition, the new Sapphire Lounge, w/ a rooftop sky deck to open next month on Congress will be catering to the 25+ crowd, even though the 21-year-old clientele will still be serviced.

[Jsmscaleros]

Originally Posted by azliam

I believe we were comparing the downtowns of Phoenix (alone) and Tucson...

You can't really exclude the rest of the valley when talking about Phoenix. They are interconnected cities all part of the same metropolitan area. Truth is, most people in Glendale, Chandler, Tempe, etc... will tell friends or relatives in other cities that they live in Phoenix - because essentially, they do.

If Oro Valley had a bustling downtown area that Tucson folks visited regularly, they would likely include it in a comparison. I live in Tempe, but I go to downtown Phoenix several times a week on the train.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

You can't really exclude the rest of the valley when talking about Phoenix. They are interconnected cities all part of the same metropolitan area. Truth is, most people in Glendale, Chandler, Tempe, etc... will tell friends or relatives in other cities that they live in Phoenix - because essentially, they do.

If Oro Valley had a bustling downtown area that Tucson folks visited regularly, they would likely include it in a comparison. I live in downtown Tempe, but I go to downtown Phoenix several times a week on the train.

But, I can. We were originally talking about the downtowns of both cities, not the entire metro areas. Again, although Tucson doesn't really have the outlying cities like Phoenix does, it also has different pockets (although to a lesser degree) where people like to eat/go out (La Encantada, Tanque Verde)...but the place to gather would primarily be downtown Tucson (Congress, Fourth Ave over to University).

[PHX31]

On the same token, we could easily bring downtown Prescott into the mix. That has 1/16 the population of Tucson and 1/64 the population of Phoenix (I could be way off on those) but Whiskey Row/Gurley Street and all the side feeder streets have a higher concentration of bars and probably a more bustling nightlife than Phoenix and Tucson. And it's not just shitkicker bars anymore... there are gay bars, live music bars, dance clubs, microbrew bars, and more.

Frankly, with a major university so close to downtown Tucson, I would expect more. Thinking of major college towns (and semi-cities, similar to Tucson) like Austin, Madison, Columbus, Eugene, etc.etc., those places are "off the hook".

The continuous street of nightlife is a great luxury, one that Phoenix bulldozed. But the combination of all of the pockets of activity through out downtown Phoenix (completely disregarding game nights, show nights, and First Friday), is great and growing all the time. If there was a scoreboard, I'd give Tucson the more cohesive, more continuous area for nightlife. But comparing both downtowns as a whole, Phoenix is bigger and has more going on.

[azliam]

Originally Posted by PHX31

On the same token, we could easily bring downtown Prescott into the mix. That has 1/16 the population of Tucson and 1/64 the population of Phoenix (I could be way off on those) but Whiskey Row/Gurley Street and all the side feeder streets have a higher concentration of bars and probably a more bustling nightlife than Phoenix and Tucson. And it's not just shitkicker bars anymore... there are gay bars, live music bars, dance clubs, microbrew bars, and more.

Frankly, with a major university so close to downtown Tucson, I would expect more. Thinking of major college towns (and semi-cities, similar to Tucson) like Austin, Madison, Columbus, Eugene, etc.etc., those places are "off the hook".

The continuous street of nightlife is a great luxury, one that Phoenix bulldozed. But the combination of all of the pockets of activity through out downtown Phoenix (completely disregarding game nights, show nights, and First Friday), is great and growing all the time. If there was a scoreboard, I'd give Tucson the more cohesive, more continuous area for nightlife. But comparing both downtowns as a whole, Phoenix is bigger and has more going on.

This part I agree with. If Tucson had 4.3+ million people in its area and a city population of 1.5+ million, perhaps it too would have more "overall" things to do downtown.

I'm not sure what more you expect from the U of A. Playboy ranked it #4 party school this year, so it can't be that boring. Didn't ASU used to be up there in the rankings?

The bottom line is that the city of Tucson is 1/3 the size of Phoenix and the metro is 1/4 the size of Phoenix metro. Having said that, I think Tucson can hold its own. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy Phoenix because I do.

[combusean]

Prescott's downtown is simply dazzling. It works on so many levels...the wooded, hilly setting...an insane concentration of life especially for its size...everything revolving around Courthouse Square... It takes the cake anywhere in Arizona afaict.

Central Ave could easily be that strip ... if the County moves out of the Security buildings, Westward Ho becomes a hotel again, and depending on the vacant lot...one can dream.

Until then, the pockets of life can't hold a handle to a continuous strip. A continuous strip is an obvious destination in and of itself, with something immediately to do all around you in spur of the moment stuff, capturing the energy of the street which exponentially builds on itself.

Phoenix has sooo many places to stretch out and fill its britches downtown it will take billions of dollars to finish it, and even then it won't nearly be as cohesive as what Tucson will grow into. Phoenix will grow into a clusterfuck of destinations like Scottsdale but, lacking the small scale in enough places, still won't have something to do on its own.

Tucson's strips are undeniable assets, and it will be much easier to fill them out with easier financed low/midrise stuff. Any of downtown tucson's 4-6 story projects would be a waste to build in downtown Phoenix with the highrise mentality here, but there they work all too well there.

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

You can't really exclude the rest of the valley when talking about Phoenix. They are interconnected cities all part of the same metropolitan area. Truth is, most people in Glendale, Chandler, Tempe, etc... will tell friends or relatives in other cities that they live in Phoenix - because essentially, they do.

I wish the periphery cities would develop their own identity rather than corrupt Phoenix's. The core of Phoenix, like Tucson, is diverse and progressive but gets totally overshadowed by the politics originating from the extreme east and west sides of the metro.

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Well, it must depend on where you are and when you're there. Is there a continuous street in Phoenix? No... but I highly, highly doubt what you're talking about in Tucson has become like Beale Street in Memphis. Combine the northeast area of downtown Phoenix only (PHX, Silver, Bar Smith, Sky Lounge, Majerles, The District, Hanny's, maybe even to the AZ Center) and you've got bars/restaurants/upscale bars/cocktail lounges/and clubs. I really can't remember the last time the Bar Smith/Sky Lounge area didn't have a line after 11pm (although it's not a half-block college kids waiting to get in/fake ID line).

Why are you bringing in Memphis? I am talking about Phoenix and Tucson. That's it and that's all. I didn't say Tucson's entertainment district was the equivalent to Bourbon Street or Las Vegas Boulevard.

It's really a shame that people from Phoenix can't admit when Tucson has the edge on a particular aspect of urban life. I guess since Phoenix doesn't measure up to any American city of similar size, in any aspect of urbanity, there is quite an inferiority complex up there.

Between 4th Avenue and Congress Street, Phoenix has nothing similar. The nightlife of downtown Tucson is not only comprised of college students of LEGAL age, but many 20somethings who call Tucson home.

[poconoboy61]

Originally Posted by vertex

Hmmm, if you combined the Scottsdale nightclub scene, Tempe's irreverence, and add DT Phoenix's infrastructure, you would have something much, much, much bigger and more interesting than anything Tucson can pull together.

4th ave. and Congress are cute, but let's not get carried away.

Again, I am comparing nightlife of Phoenix proper to Tucson proper.

The Valley is not one city. The Valley is a metro area. I am comparing Phoenix to Tucson. I have a feeling that you realize that Phoenix with 1.6 million people does not have a continuous nightlife district similar to Tucson with 545,000 people.

It's cute that Phoenicians have to use Scottsdale and Tempe as a crutch to make their city SEEM great. Until Phoenix somehow incorporates Tempe and Scottsdale into its city limits, my point stands. It's also cute how Phoenicians use people emptying out of sporting arenas in DT Phoenix to drive or take the light rail back to the suburbs as a sign of urban activity.

[PHX31]

I've already agreed that a continuous strip of nightlife is great and Tucson is better for that (Prescott even better). However, there's more options and greater nightlife throughout Phoenix proper than there is in Tucson (obviously this is where we are agreeing to disagree).

[Classical in Phoenix]

I was kinda thinking that a strip of strip clubs would be pretty cool.

[vertex]

It's cute that Phoenicians have to use Scottsdale and Tempe as a crutch to make their city SEEM great.

Wow. Comments like this coming from Tucson residents just go to show how badly the little brown pueblo continues to fail at measuring up.

[kaneui]

I believe there is a growing sense that, in spite of past mistakes, Tucson can seize this current window of opportunity to successfully revive its downtown and make it more attractive and relevant to the metro area. Certainly, numerous recent projects indicate a building momentum in that direction: the facade restoration program for historic structures, an expanded convention center and accompanying hotel, the aesthetic facelift to streets and sidewalks through the Infrastructure Improvement Program, the upcoming Mercado and Convento Districts west of I-10 as new additions to the urban scene, and a new streetcar line that will help connect the dots. Coupled with the proximity to the population and resources of UA, these recent pulses of activity are attracting more restaurants, nightlife, and patrons to downtown in numbers not seen in many years.

Of course, the noisy naysayers will continue pointing to Rio Nuevo's dismal track record and the dwindling TIF resources needed to continue its funding. However, Glenn Lyons, as new CEO of the Downtown Tucson Partnership, is emerging as a potential leader with the necessary vision, experience and clout to bust through the inertia and incompetence at City Hall and bring downtown into the 21st century. It would seem like an almost insurmountable task--but given Tucson's urban renewal history and the challenges of the current economy, it's nice to see any ray of hope on the horizon.