Great Lakes Cities

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Not really a huge deal but Toronto's main sports teams tend to play in the eastern division (Blue Jays, Raptors) with Boston and NYC rather than in the central division with Chicago, Detroit and Cleveland. The Maple Leafs were in the east too but now all the Canadian teams are in one division due to Covid. I don't think Toronto really has a Great Lakes regional identity - even though the Great Lakes are a central feature of Ontario geography. Though occasionally there are Chicago/Toronto comparisons in the two main Great Lakes cities.

Totally.

Some people seem to want Chicago vs. Toronto to become more of a thing, but for the joe six-pack types, you need sports animosity to make the average person truly hate another city, and Chicago's and Toronto's sports teams just don't have much in the way of any meaningful history against each other, and thus the two cities, despite both being "great lakes cities" aren't anywhere close to being on each other's radar screens. They really do seem to inhabit their own separate hemispheres. The international border doesn't help either. No society in history has ever navel-gazed like the US.


Hawks/Leafs - different conferences. Lots of post-season match-ups way back in the original 6 era, but only 3 since then and the most recent was back in 1995. Not really much of a rivalry, other than O6 legacy stuff.

Sox/Blue Jays - same league, but different divisions. One head-to-head post season match-up 28 years ago. No rivalry.

Cubs/Blue Jays - different leagues. No post season match-ups. No rivalry.

Fire/Toronto FC - same conference. No post-season match-ups. No rivalry.

Bulls/Raptors - same conference, but different divisions. No post-season match-ups. No rivalry.

Bears/nobody - Toronto doesn't have an NFL team

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

what's weird about it? it's the canadian border, not the mexican. doubtful it would ever need to change, unless people start snorting and injecting maple syrup or something, could that ever be a thing? ha -- and for so for that we all should be grateful. 90% of the heroin to the usa comes via mexico and 90% of the blow comes via columbia, so hardcore monitoring is not worth any bother.

and how do you think heroin and blow get to toronto?

or does nobody in canada do drugs?

[benp]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

and how do you think heroin and blow get to toronto?

or does nobody in canada do drugs?

Drug seizures along Canadian border up 1,000%, CBP says
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/drug...ry?id=73049477

[Crawford]

There's a considerable amount of human and drug trafficking along the U.S.-Canadian border. There have been even been subs caught full of drugs. Everyone knows why this isn't a political issue, though.

[BigDipper 80]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ interesting take on the nature of the rivalry.

Buffalo: the Canada of America!



One thing that Chicago misses out on by being at the very southern end of the only solely american great lake is the US/canada dynamic.

Everywhere else in the region, the other four lakes are shared by the two nations. Even if it's just a vague sense of "Canada/America is just right over there on the other side of the lake", it's still there.

But in Chicago, there's zero sense of Canada being "in the neighborhood". The other side of the lake for us is just Michigan, which is still cool and all, but in no way shape or form "foreign" or "other".

It's always funny dealing with "Welcome to Canada, you are now using Telus" roaming issues when on Kelley's Island.

Or seeing the Border Patrol in Sandusky.

[benp]

Originally Posted by BigDipper 80

It's always funny dealing with "Welcome to Canada, you are now using Telus" roaming issues when on Kelley's Island.

Or seeing the Border Patrol in Sandusky.

Once in awhile I get the "Welcome to Canada" message on the West Side of Buffalo or along the lake/river.

And I have even seen the Border Patrol set up checkpoints in the city (on Hertel in Black Rock, for those that know the neighborhoods), which was unexpected.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by benp

Once in awhile I get the "Welcome to Canada" message on the West Side of Buffalo or along the lake/river.

And I have even seen the Border Patrol set up checkpoints in the city (on Hertel in Black Rock, for those that know the neighborhoods), which was unexpected.

Same in Erie, especially out on Presque Isle or even on the bayfront, you'll almost always get the "Welcome to Canada! International data rates may apply" message.

I've never seen Border Patrol checkpoints in Erie, but I know there is a BP station and I see their SUVs around. I don't know what they really do in Erie since the border is in the middle of the Lake.

[deja vu]

Often, when I am along the east coast of Lake Michigan (South Haven, for example), my phone will toggle between the eastern and central time zones. I'm curious if this happens on the west coast too, in Illinois / Wisconsin. I think the official time zone boundary slices somewhere through the middle of the lake, miles away from the coast.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by deja vu

Often, when I am along the east coast of Lake Michigan (South Haven, for example), my phone will toggle between the eastern and central time zones. I'm curious if this happens on the west coast too, in Illinois / Wisconsin.

not that i've ever noticed.

[The North One]

Canada doesn't feel foreign to people who live near the border, it feels normal. I feel a lot closer to Canada than say Ohio. Which I guess is the difference. It is a bit of a novelty though, being able to leave the United States whenever is psychologically freeing lol (although cant exactly do that at the moment). Also more people have things like dual citizenship near the border for obvious reasons.

I think Chicago not having that connection is unfortunate and something it misses out on, instead of being bi-national it's just all American.

[Antares41]

Originally Posted by The North One

Canada doesn't feel foreign to people who live near the border, it feels normal.

Very true and before 9-11 all you needed was a drivers license to cross the border and shop or enjoy the nightlife in Canada. Buffalo metro is definitely strongly affiliated with Canada. I believe Detroit is the only other major city that can make that claim.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Antares41

Buffalo metro is definitely strongly affiliated with Canada. I believe Detroit is the only other major city that can make that claim.

Seattle is probably 3rd on that list.

It's roughly 100 miles from the border.

I can't think of any major US cities that are closer than those 3.

Well, Cleveland is technically closer to the border, but it's in the middle of lake erie, not quite the same as a land/bridge crossing

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Seattle is probably 3rd on that list.

It's roughly 100 miles from the border.

I can't think of any major US cities that are closer than those 3.

Burlington has decent ties with Montreal and there is a fair amount of cross-border traffic. A lot of people from Montreal visit Burlington to go shopping and to go skiing in Vermont. The two cities are 95 miles apart. When I was going to college (pre-9/11), we'd visit Montreal when we wanted a night out in the city. The exchange rate was good back then and you could get a steak and a beer for about $10 US.

[Steely Dan]

^ sure, Burlington is pretty close too, as are some others, but by "major US city", I was thinking of 1M+ MSAs.

The Burlington metro area is only around 200K.

It's a great town though. Definitely punches above it's weight class. And it's setting on the shore of lake Champlain is quite nice.

[pj3000]

To me, the Buffalo metro is by far the US city most closely affiliated with Canada… primarily due to its blending with the GTA/Golden Horseshoe

[Steely Dan]

^ well, yeah.

Detroit is the only other possible contender.

They're the only two major US cities located directly on the border.

Seattle is sorta close, but it's urban area doesn't truly straddle the border in the same way. And as I mentioned earlier, the border at Cleveland is in the middle of a freaking 60 mile wide lake.


As far as smaller cross border urban areas, Sault Ste. Marie & Port Huron/Sarnia would certainly qualify.

[suburbanite]

In my mind Detroit is the other way around, where Windsor is the Canadian city most affiliated with the States. Detroit's urban gravity and economy are obviously quite a few notches above Buffalo.

Would've been a very interesting dynamic if Toronto was located on the northern shore of Lake Erie instead, somewhere around Chatham.

[pj3000]

^ right, that’s why I noted “by far”.

I mean, Detroit is affiliated with Windsor… but Windsor is basically what it is because of Detroit. Whereas Buffalo is directly associated with Canada’s largest population agglomeration.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

In my mind Detroit is the other way around, where Windsor is the Canadian city most affiliated with the States. Detroit's urban gravity and economy are obviously quite a few notches above Buffalo.

Would've been a very interesting dynamic if Toronto was located on the northern shore of Lake Erie instead, somewhere around Chatham.

Right.

That would be interesting… if so, there might be a complete, continuous ring of high density urbanization all the way around Lake Erie. Potentially being the largest population concentration center on the continent.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Would've been a very interesting dynamic if Toronto was located on the northern shore of Lake Erie instead, somewhere around Chatham.

I think the St. Lawrence's connection to the ocean ports was too important to Canada for that to occur.

Canada's two major great lakes cities ended up on Ontario, whereas in the US, thanks to the Erie canal's re-route to NYC, just about all of the major lake cities ended up on Erie & Michigan.