HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 5:35 AM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 22,644
The Toronto skyline has crossed a big threshold

According to SSP''s database, metro Toronto now has 100 buildings over 500' tall, including U/C towers.

There are only two other cities in the US/Canada that have reached that same mark: New York (300) and Chicago (123).

What makes Toronto's crossing of this threshold even more impressive is the fact that as recently as 2004, Toronto only had 11 500+ footers. That's an increase of 89 such towers in only 15 years!

Hot. Damn.


But Jacksonville's skyline is somehow still better.
__________________
If a Pizza is baked in a forest, and no one is around to eat it, is it still delicious?

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 16, 2019 at 5:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 6:00 AM
badrunner badrunner is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 972
Toronto hitting on all cylinders right now
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:07 AM
bobdreamz's Avatar
bobdreamz bobdreamz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Miami/Orlando, FL.
Posts: 7,564
I only found 83 for Toronto on this site by CTBUH though :

http://www.skyscrapercenter.com/comp...t=Show+Results

Still impressive though.
__________________
Elect Joe Biden so Trump could spend more time Golfing !
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 8:27 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,057
^^ Generally, urban planning policies are very good but agree about the quality of many of the new buildings. It's a common complaint. The culture is still very conservative, developers want to fatten their bottom line, and quality isn't what it was back in the 1980s (and before). That's a worldwide problem; it's not just Toronto. Go to a typical condo built in 1970 and a typical one built last year. There's a noticeable difference. Even brick facades aren't 'real' brick any more; they're brick panels a few cm thick.

It also bears mentioning that most of what goes up in places like Manhattan caters to the well heeled. Toronto is heading that way but still builds a lot of stuff for the masses. It's never going to be celebrated in a design magazine but it accomplishes something better imo. The goal is to provide a good home for everyone, not just the rich. It's one of the reasons the masses are flooding into Toronto and have been for decades (bring us your huddled masses, if you will). Stuff like this below, for instance, is mixed income/Community Housing.

Mixed Income Residential in downtown Toronto

Courtesy of stealth monitoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdreamz View Post
I only found 83 for Toronto on this site by CTBUH though :

http://www.skyscrapercenter.com/comp...t=Show+Results

Still impressive though.
Yes you get different numbers depending on which site you go to and whether you include Mississauga. Counting roof height, official height, pinnacle height, etc. changes the count a bit too. That said, the pace of construction seems to be the new normal. 83 or 100, the number will steadily spike higher. I wouldn't be surprised to see it over 200 such buildings by 2030. There are 82 buildings 500ft+ at the proposal stage.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams

Last edited by isaidso; Jun 16, 2019 at 9:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 10:47 PM
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
Innsertnamehere Innsertnamehere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 6,276
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobdreamz View Post
I only found 83 for Toronto on this site by CTBUH though :

http://www.skyscrapercenter.com/comp...t=Show+Results

Still impressive though.
This is likely Toronto only - Steely Dan is quoting the Metro area. Lots of suburban 500 footers in Toronto.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 11:37 PM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
This is likely Toronto only - Steely Dan is quoting the Metro area. Lots of suburban 500 footers in Toronto.
Dan is counting only the built and under construction in the city of Toronto on SSP. CTBUH doesn't count excavation as being under construction though

here are the numbers for the entire GTA

Toronto (including the CN Tower): 101
Mississauga: 5
Vaughan: 2

Last edited by Nite; Jun 17, 2019 at 3:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 8:32 AM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,666
It's disappointing but thankfully there is a new premier og Ontario, Doug Ford, and so the province taken planning out of the hands of the City of Toronto and gotten rid all of those extremely strict limits on high-rise development the city once had. And not only that, the province has also taken away the ability for municipalities like Ontario to collect development charges. So without these barriers, developers will be finally be able to build a decent of amount of tall buildings in the city and not fall any further behind the rest of Canada and North America.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 9:46 AM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,200
as for the causes of the skyscraper boom in and around Toronto here is my answer from most important to least important

1. GTHA green belt: it was established in 2005 and has effectively stopped sprawl and heavily promotes densification not just in Toronto but all the GTHA towns and cities

2. High population growth: has increased the demand for housing and in the GTHA. without sprawl, you can only build upwards

3. low-interest rates: interest rates in the lasts 20 years have been lower than ever before

4. Transportation: the current transportation network, both highways and transit are at capacity and so development beyond the green belt cannot depend on commuters for growth

5 Strong diversified economy: Toronto has an incredible diversified economy that prevents the region from experiencing a downturn and is creating jobs at a fast rate that it can absorb over 125,000 new residence a year. The new residence also create many jobs as well

if these conditions stay constant Toronto will be building more and taller buildings in the next decade more than ever before. 2019 is already looking to be a record year for construction with 200 highrises under construction.

Last edited by Nite; Jun 16, 2019 at 9:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 9:37 PM
BG918's Avatar
BG918 BG918 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
as for the causes of the skyscraper boom in and around Toronto here is my answer from most important to least important

1. GTHA green belt: it was established in 2005 and has effectively stopped sprawl and heavily promotes densification not just in Toronto but all the GTHA towns and cities

2. High population growth: has increased the demand for housing and in the GTHA. without sprawl, you can only build upwards

3. low-interest rates: interest rates in the lasts 20 years have been lower than ever before

4. Transportation: the current transportation network, both highways and transit are at capacity and so development beyond the green belt cannot depend on commuters for growth

5 Strong diversified economy: Toronto has an incredible diversified economy that prevents the region from experiencing a downturn and is creating jobs at a fast rate that it can absorb over 125,000 new residence a year. The new residence also create many jobs as well

if these conditions stay constant Toronto will be building more and taller buildings in the next decade more than ever before. 2019 is already looking to be a record year for construction with 200 highrises under construction.
I'd be interested in how U.S. immigration laws affect the growth in large Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver. I personally know someone originally from India who was employed in the U.S. but couldn't get permanent residency due to the quota/lottery system so he moved to Canada and was granted it almost immediately.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 10:39 PM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
I'd be interested in how U.S. immigration laws affect the growth in large Canadian cities like Toronto and Vancouver. I personally know someone originally from India who was employed in the U.S. but couldn't get permanent residency due to the quota/lottery system so he moved to Canada and was granted it almost immediately.
Nothing the US government does has an effect on the quantity or the location where immigrants settle in Canada. Ottawa and Quebec City set the targets each year and that's it
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 1:29 PM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 21,770
Toronto has a crapload of towers u/c. I'm there twice a year for work, and every visit, it's different. The problem is the average quality of architecture/urban planning is pretty bad, but the volume is incredible by NA standards.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 9:53 PM
badrunner badrunner is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 972
The Trump effect is real. Canada is going to be an increasing attractive alternative for prospective immigrants. If the US is entering into a period of more restrictive immigration policies then this can be expected to continue. So when Toronto finally surpasses Chicago you'll know who to blame
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 11:35 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,057
^^ Agree. It's largely a Vancouver problem. Toronto does see a of wealth pour into it, in the same way as London, Sydney, and Zurich does, but these condos aren't sitting empty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
The Trump effect is real. Canada is going to be an increasing attractive alternative for prospective immigrants. If the US is entering into a period of more restrictive immigration policies then this can be expected to continue. So when Toronto finally surpasses Chicago you'll know who to blame
You're being awfully dismissive of Toronto's accomplishments. When San Francisco, New York, or the US prospers its because of US ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc. Has it occurred to you that when Toronto, Vancouver, or Canada prospers it's because of Canadian ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.?

I agree that having a dud like Trump helps Canada but Toronto (and Canada) would be booming with or without a Trump presidency.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams

Last edited by isaidso; Jun 17, 2019 at 2:02 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 11:42 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 2,292
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You're being awfully dismissive. So when San Francisco, New York, or the US prospers its because of US ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc. Has it occurred to you that when Toronto, Vancouver, or Canada prospers it's because of Canadian ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.?

I agree that having a dud like Trump helps Canada but Canada would be booming with or without a Trump presidency.
It's sort of like saying the Raptors' victory is more about the Warriors' injuries than the Raptors themselves doing well .

When Toronto (or Canada) does well, it's about Toronto's would-be "rivals" or "competitors" slipping or messing up, rather than its own credit.

Canada/Toronto is never its own player, only the puppet of other forces beyond its control, whether it's Trump's immigration policy, China's money and foreign investment, or whatever.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:45 AM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
It's sort of like saying the Raptors' victory is more about the Warriors' injuries than the Raptors themselves doing well .

When Toronto (or Canada) does well, it's about Toronto's would-be "rivals" or "competitors" slipping or messing up, rather than its own credit.

Canada/Toronto is never its own player, only the puppet of other forces beyond its control, whether it's Trump's immigration policy, China's money and foreign investment, or whatever.
I think its more like many Americans attribute everything on Earth(that's bad) to Trump. Our immigration levels haven't even gone down since hes been president, but it doesn't stop people making bold statements as truth. They think if there is a storm in Kenya, its because of Trump. I wouldn't read too far into it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 1:11 AM
Crawford Crawford is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 21,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
It's sort of like saying the Raptors' victory is more about the Warriors' injuries than the Raptors themselves doing well .
Well, it's kinda both, in both cases. The Raptors are great, but probably wouldn't be champions if the Warriors were healthy. Toronto is super successful, but obviously wouldn't be as successful if the U.S. had the same immigration rules as Canada or if Montreal were English speaking.

Toronto isn't exactly a model of public policy or good government. They had Rob Ford. Detroit has a fantastic mayor, but isn't exactly booming. NYC has a terrible mayor and city council but is quite healthy. DC had Marion Barry and is very successful. SF is governed by crazies but booming. There are macro trends bigger than whether or not the mayor is a hack.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:13 AM
badrunner badrunner is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 972
Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
You're being awfully dismissive of Toronto's accomplishments. So when San Francisco, New York, or the US prospers its because of US ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.
Actually a lot of it was because Europe dropped the ball and was busy slaughtering each other for much of the 20th century. The US took the lead decisively between the world wars. See I don't mind admitting that

Quote:
Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Has it occurred to you that when Toronto, Vancouver, or Canada prospers it's because of Canadian ingenuity, hard work, policy, innovation, etc.?
Of course, these cities have been booming long before Trump took office. But when it comes to the quantity and quality of ambitious and upwardly mobile immigrants that Canada is able to choose from, the presence of Trump can only help Canada.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 12:28 AM
Nite's Avatar
Nite Nite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Actually a lot of it was because Europe dropped the ball and was busy slaughtering each other for much of the 20th century. The US took the lead decisively between the world wars. See I don't mind admitting that



Of course, these cities have been booming long before Trump took office. But when it comes to the quantity and quality of ambitious and upwardly mobile immigrants that Canada is able to choose from, the presence of Trump can only help Canada.
Canada will take the same amount of immigrant with or without trump. Once the number of successful applicants are reach, that's it for the year. We don't take in more because of US policies
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 1:43 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 30,271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Canada will take the same amount of immigrant with or without trump. Once the number of successful applicants are reach, that's it for the year. We don't take in more because of US policies
True, there's way more demand than available openings in both the U.S. and Canada so the numbers are completely unrelated - each of the two countries chooses to take as many as they want to every year.

About two-thirds of Canadians want to reduce the numbers we take in, though. So the growth we've seen may not continue at the same pace in the future. (This link just got shared earlier by someone in the Federal Politics discussion thread: )

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/poll-s...vels-1.4468916

Last edited by lio45; Jun 17, 2019 at 2:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 10:42 PM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,666
Prospective immigrants probably view Trump more favourably than the average American. I'm not sure USA and Canada always competing for the same immigrants.

I think if you look back at previous decades, there has always lots of high-rise construction in the Toronto area. The most high-rises built was in the 60s. Does today's high rise boom really match the 60s?

According to the SSP database, 503 high rise buildings were built in Toronto during the 1960s compared to 460 high rises built in the 2010s. So no, the current high rise boom does not match the 60s high rise boom.

The difference today compared to the 60s is the buildings are taller, but they are skinnier too so it's not necessarily a larger number of units being built. The units are also condominium apartments instead of rental apartments.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:31 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.