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  #1001  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SEFTA View Post
Didn't want to bump the thread but were there renderings of a downsized version of 2120 Market Street?
From mid October

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Originally Posted by Nanyika View Post
I heard from people involved with this project that it is due to break ground in about six months, and be completed in two years. 40 stories, mixed condos and offices. Renders should be available soon.
So not yet, but we should be close
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  #1002  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 6:36 PM
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Just wondering if there existed any images
"Brandywine plans 23-story office-residential tower on Market Street block hit by deadly 2013 collapse"

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20191122.html
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  #1003  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 7:10 PM
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No renderings, and conflicting descriptions of plans. This is why we wait until a rendering before making a thread!

I'm hoping whatever is put there is at least 400'.
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  #1004  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 7:38 PM
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^ I thought that a thread was made back when. Guess not.
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  #1005  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 7:53 PM
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I've updated the OP with a new photo, along with moving some projects into the site prep category.
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  #1006  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 8:29 PM
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This would be an excellent solution and perhaps by the time the M4 cars are replaced, whoever is responsible at SEPTA would be receptive to them. They would also seem likelier to prevent trackfalls than multilingual eye-level height signs and automated announcements.

I think that an obvious solution is higher service frequencies, which would require signal improvements and new rolling stock at worst, which is probably more attainable and cost-efficient than anything entailing excavation and underground construction would be. I don't know what the maximum throughput of the MFSE is, but if they would like to increase capacity by a third, running trains every 3 minutes rather than every 4 minutes seems as though it should be feasible. The platform extension idea always seems cockamamie to me. I think that the MFSE would do well to have more capacity, but platform extensions almost seems like solving a problem that the PRT or its successors had dealt with a long time ago using more or less the same infrastructure as I assume that the line had higher ridership in the past when the city's population was higher, more concentrated in central areas and owned fewer automobiles.

I recall reading claims somewhere in the annual reports of the Department of City Transit or this report on construction of the Frankford Elevated that it would be possible to run 44 trains per hour on the Market Street Subway-Elevated with the never-built Darby Elevated tied into it, pending its never-realized later routing into a Chestnut Street Subway. I also recall citations for the PRT having run variously 20, 30-34 or 40 trains per hour over the MSSE. Some time ago I chanced upon a fleet management plan for the M4 cars that cited intended service of 20 trains per hour and noted that the M3 fleet had run headways sometimes as close as 2.2 minutes between trains. (I wish that I could find that again)

For some reason a fleet of 218 M4 cars is insufficient for better service than 15 trains per hour. I assume that simply multiplying trains per hour by cars per train and adding the FTA prescribed 15 % spare ratio is too simple to yield the actual number of cars needed for service, but something seems amiss. Using that simple calculation for illustration note that there are 218 M4 cars in service, crudely using 104 cars per hour (6*15*1.15=103.5, rounded up to 104), which is 47.71 % of the fleet. By contrast, the crude calculation for the Broad Street Subway is 113 cars per hour (((16*5)+(9*2))*1.15=112.7, rounded up to 113) or 90.4 % of the fleet. Maybe some difference in infrastructure explains the MFSE's comparative fleet inefficiency, but I wonder if something is wrong with the M4 cars themselves that limit service levels beyond what infrastructure limitations would. Page 7 of SEPTA's most recent capital budget notes that the $ 1.3 billion project would include,"associated vehicle procurement," which I assume refers to just some additional cars, as $ 1.3 billion would be a little light for the required construction and a whole new fleet.

I think that this whole extensions project might just have been Jeffrey Knueppel's pet idea. It almost seems designed to address the issue with the most construction possible. It's not just a failure to follow, "Organization Before Electronics Before Concrete," it's forgetting everything but the third thing.
This. Open gangways/articulated cars would add as much capacity as anything else, including removing the stupid seat configuration that currently exists. I'm not sure why the cars don't have bench seats already on each side, but the current configuration makes it very very difficult to move to the center of the car...causing massive jams at the doors.
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  #1007  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
This. Open gangways/articulated cars would add as much capacity as anything else, including removing the stupid seat configuration that currently exists. I'm not sure why the cars don't have bench seats already on each side, but the current configuration makes it very very difficult to move to the center of the car...causing massive jams at the doors.
Hell, if you wanted to go even cheaper just forgo the open gangways and add bench seating. It blows my mind that they still haven't figured this out.

I'd be interested to hear SEPTA's excuse as to why they have continually ordered subway stock with this configuration.
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  #1008  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2020, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
Hell, if you wanted to go even cheaper just forgo the open gangways and add bench seating. It blows my mind that they still haven't figured this out.

I'd be interested to hear SEPTA's excuse as to why they have continually ordered subway stock with this configuration.
very few (if any) US subways have this configuration and it's something that wasnt widely done when the BSL cars were built 35 years ago to my knowledge. Another issue is turning radius- this is why articulated trolleys may not work here without substantial changes to the tunnel geometry. They can't make certain turns due to clearance issues or restrictions on the severity of curve they can navigate. THE BSL and MFL make some tight turns at various locations. The best and cheapest solution for MFL crowding is to divert more traffic from the east end to the BSL via express buses. There is plenty of capacity on the BSL.
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  #1009  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2020, 4:01 PM
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IIRC the SSTs were always intended to be temporary and replaced by subways.
Even if that's true, I think the SST are extremely useful and have a lot of potential growth if they can get the articulated trolleys and move to more of a light rail operation with more spaced-out stops with platforms as planned. I think a lot of the burden on the MFL could have been alleviated if the trolley tunnel went all the way through to 2nd street/Delaware ave. Then NE Philly could have been supported by more trolley lines similar to how west Philly is.

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The best and cheapest solution for MFL crowding is to divert more traffic from the east end to the BSL via express buses. There is plenty of capacity on the BSL.
I agree with this; getting some feeder lines to the BSL would be a good idea. Hopefully this gets addressed with the bus system overhaul.
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  #1010  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
Hell, if you wanted to go even cheaper just forgo the open gangways and add bench seating. It blows my mind that they still haven't figured this out.

I'd be interested to hear SEPTA's excuse as to why they have continually ordered subway stock with this configuration.
Well you need open gangways if you want to run trains longer than the current platforms.
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
very few (if any) US subways have this configuration and it's something that wasnt widely done when the BSL cars were built 35 years ago to my knowledge.
This is something the US is wildly behind the rest of the world on. Open gangways are standard on modern equipment in the UK, France, Germany, China, Japan, etc.
Quote:
Another issue is turning radius- this is why articulated trolleys may not work here without substantial changes to the tunnel geometry. They can't make certain turns due to clearance issues or restrictions on the severity of curve they can navigate.
This is mathematically nonsensical. Our current trolleys are actually built to the limit of what the tunnel's loading gauge can handle; an LRV twice the length but with two places of articulation would have three carlengths, none as long as the current trolley cars = easier tunnel clearance.
Quote:
THE BSL and MFL make some tight turns at various locations. The best and cheapest solution for MFL crowding is to divert more traffic from the east end to the BSL via express buses. There is plenty of capacity on the BSL.
So ... are you suggesting that the crosstowns that feed into the BSL be made into BRT?
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  #1011  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 2:44 AM
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NYE nix: Kenney vetoes food truck ban, kills Society Hill carve-out and more

Credit/link: https://whyy.org/articles/nye-nix-ke...-out-and-more/

The Society Hill bills are the latest attempt by the wealthy and historic neighborhood to rewrite the zoning rules for their community. The bills would have exempted the area from laws, recently signed by Mayor Kenney, that were meant to encourage preservation projects by getting rid of parking minimums. They also would have downzoned much of the neighborhood.

“These are burdensome restrictions on development,” the mayor writes. “Additionally, this may inhibit creation of new affordable housing units on blocks that are very transit-oriented, accessible to jobs and amenities, and designed for multiple units.”

City Councilmember Mark Squilla, an ally of the mayor, said that he was “surprised by the action.”
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  #1012  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 4:26 AM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post

This is mathematically nonsensical. Our current trolleys are actually built to the limit of what the tunnel's loading gauge can handle; an LRV twice the length but with two places of articulation would have three carlengths, none as long as the current trolley cars = easier tunnel clearance.
I remember when these 'new' trolleys were ordered that SEPTA said that the limiting factor in their design was the sharp corners that some of the routes are required to make, IE the #13 at 65th st. and several in Delaware County. I don't remember if this effected the length or width or both.
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  #1013  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
I remember when these 'new' trolleys were ordered that SEPTA said that the limiting factor in their design was the sharp corners that some of the routes are required to make, IE the #13 at 65th st. and several in Delaware County. I don't remember if this effected the length or width or both.
all that matters is what is actually sold on the market. If the articulated models in existence cant make the turns you have an issue. You do not want highly customized vehicles that dont exist elsewhere in the world for various reasons. Most western countries have streetcar systems that are more modern than what we have and presumably fewer compromises. Most US streetcar systems were built within last few decades- our situation is relatively unique. Boston is one of the only other cities with legacy trolley/subway lines in operation.
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  #1014  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Well you need open gangways if you want to run trains longer than the current platforms.

This is something the US is wildly behind the rest of the world on. Open gangways are standard on modern equipment in the UK, France, Germany, China, Japan, etc.

This is mathematically nonsensical. Our current trolleys are actually built to the limit of what the tunnel's loading gauge can handle; an LRV twice the length but with two places of articulation would have three carlengths, none as long as the current trolley cars = easier tunnel clearance.

So ... are you suggesting that the crosstowns that feed into the BSL be made into BRT?
You arent getting any BRT running through the middle of narrow streets in north philly. But you could establish some express buses that only make a handful of stops going east to connect the areas west of kensington with SD and CCM stations. There is already bus service, but some enhancements could be made to entice people to take that short bus ride vs walking to their nearest EL station and jamming onto a train.
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  #1015  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 3:45 PM
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Of course, in a perfect world, there would be multiple other subways that take service away from the El or at least feed into the BSL rather than the El, considering that the BSL (except at rush hour) isn't at capacity.
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  #1016  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 4:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
Of course, in a perfect world, there would be multiple other subways that take service away from the El or at least feed into the BSL rather than the El, considering that the BSL (except at rush hour) isn't at capacity.
North philadelphia is likely the best served by subway service- out of all places it has the least need for additional lines. Its probably only a 10 minute bus ride between certain EL stations and their counterparts on the BSL- that's really not far at all. The development has huddled around the EL while similar changes have been lagging along north broad. Perhaps one day developers will figure this out and fill out the gaps along North Broad. Its starting slowly, but there is still a ton of vacant and underutilized land north of temple. It honestly makes no sense when you consider the subway is RIGHT there.
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  #1017  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
You arent getting any BRT running through the middle of narrow streets in north philly.
There are some wider streets that might work, like Cecil B. Moore, Lehigh, Allegheny and Erie (this one already has trolley tracks running down the center like Girard), and of course Roosevelt Blvd, which would ideally be a spur off the BSL.
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  #1018  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
There are some wider streets that might work, like Cecil B. Moore, Lehigh, Allegheny and Erie (this one already has trolley tracks running down the center like Girard), and of course Roosevelt Blvd, which would ideally be a spur off the BSL.
tracks on erie are gone in many locations. I know for a fact they have been eliminated west of broad. El crowding is worse as the trains coming from FTC approach CC so you really only need to address the loading at 3 or 4 stations that are north of spring garden. These are also teh stations that are the closest to Broad street before the EL makes that NE turn.
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  #1019  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 5:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
North philadelphia is likely the best served by subway service- out of all places it has the least need for additional lines. Its probably only a 10 minute bus ride between certain EL stations and their counterparts on the BSL- that's really not far at all. The development has huddled around the EL while similar changes have been lagging along north broad. Perhaps one day developers will figure this out and fill out the gaps along North Broad. Its starting slowly, but there is still a ton of vacant and underutilized land north of temple. It honestly makes no sense when you consider the subway is RIGHT there.
I'm referring to West Philadelphia. North and Northeast are fine.

Northwest, on the otherhand, is another story. A Roxborough subway would kill.
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  #1020  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2020, 5:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
I'm referring to West Philadelphia. North and Northeast are fine.

Northwest, on the otherhand, is another story. A Roxborough subway would kill.
we're already gone through this.

they just need to convert the existing regional rail to a more rapid system and let people pay subway fare as opposed to regional rail fair.

if the CH East, CH West, and Norristown lines had reduced headway times and had trains availabe every 10 minutes or so, charging only subway fares within the city...they'd be packed.
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