PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Busy Bee]

PECO would have to ask for a rate raise for a massive utility burial program, which without pressure by city government it's not going to do. I know some people defend the powerline visual clutter and try to draw some comparison to Tokyo, which is ridiculous in so many ways. With the lines and the garbage wooden poles and substations bolted to the front of even new developments, it looks more like Manila.

[McBane]

I don't think anyone here will defend the utility poles - they're hideous. But where it gets tricky is determining where on the scale of needs does this fall under, especially given the exorbitant cost. Philadelphians as it is are overtaxed and the city is under pressure to improve its schools (both student performance and the physical buildings), lower the poverty rate, keep middle class families from moving to the suburbs, plant more trees, fix the roads, attract employers, fix the city's litter problem, etc.

Once you see the full list of needs - and the items above only scratch the surface - it's no wonder why burying ugly utility lines is so low down the list of priorities. And believe me, street clutter is one of my biggest pet peeves; in addition to the utilty poles, what's up with the random bollards that you find on too many residential streets - they look out of place, many are bent in various directions, and have their paint peeling - looks so trashy.

[iheartphilly]

^
True. With over 30k employees and a multi-billion dollar budget, let's expect/demand results.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

PECO would have to ask for a rate raise for a massive utility burial program, which without pressure by city government it's not going to do. I know some people defend the powerline visual clutter and try to draw some comparison to Tokyo, which is ridiculous in so many ways. With the lines and the garbage wooden poles and substations bolted to the front of even new developments, it looks more like Manila.

I think a huge % of the clutter on the wires is...Comcast (cable). Those massive black bundles that they have looped around some of the poles are cable fibre. We also have energy choice in PA. If Peco wants to jack rates, go to another provider. The city should just mandate a target goal for all of greater Center City to be buried by 2030, say. Do a mix of federal/private/local/state to cover the costs. If we can find a billion dollars to put new curb cuts in for ADA regulations we should be able to find the $$ for this.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think a huge % of the clutter on the wires is...Comcast (cable). Those massive black bundles that they have looped around some of the poles are cable fibre. We also have energy choice in PA. If Peco wants to jack rates, go to another provider. The city should just mandate a target goal for all of greater Center City to be buried by 2030, say. Do a mix of federal/private/local/state to cover the costs. If we can find a billion dollars to put new curb cuts in for ADA regulations we should be able to find the $$ for this.

We paid for those curb cuts by massively slashing the street repaving budget so now our roads are a mess. I have to agree with McBane here. There are dozens of other things we need before we worry about a almost purely aesthetic improvement.

[Busy Bee]

It's not entirely an issue of aesthetics though as above ground power transmission is much more vulnerable to [increasing] severe storms and resulting outages with the constant repair required to the lines, poles, blown transformers... those things have to add up.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by McBane

I don't think anyone here will defend the utility poles - they're hideous. But where it gets tricky is determining where on the scale of needs does this fall under, especially given the exorbitant cost. Philadelphians as it is are overtaxed and the city is under pressure to improve its schools (both student performance and the physical buildings), lower the poverty rate, keep middle class families from moving to the suburbs, plant more trees, fix the roads, attract employers, fix the city's litter problem, etc.

Once you see the full list of needs - and the items above only scratch the surface - it's no wonder why burying ugly utility lines is so low down the list of priorities. And believe me, street clutter is one of my biggest pet peeves; in addition to the utilty poles, what's up with the random bollards that you find on too many residential streets - they look out of place, many are bent in various directions, and have their paint peeling - looks so trashy.

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

One key to reducing the poverty rate is to make sure people who don't live in poverty don't leave the city. One way to do that is to show them their tax dollars at work.

If you are a middle class family making $80K a year and you look around your neighborhood with dirty streets and no municipal services, why stay?

You could start street cleaning in a moderate way with very little money.

You can begin burying power lines modestly but set goals to have certain neighborhoods complete in 5/10/15/20 years.

You could require developers who are developing entire blocks (common in NoLibs, Kensington, Port Richmond, Brewerytown, etc) to bury the power lines adjacent to their projects as one way of starting.

Imagine if Bart Blatstein were required to bury the power lines surrounding his Piazza project 10 years ago when it commenced? Half of Northern Liberties would already be underground.

When the city is digging up a street to do a full replacement of water or gas lines, it could be law to due the damn thing and put everything on the street underground (power, cable, etc).

[kingtut]

Who knows but their is probably an emerging technology in the next 10 years to deliver power through magnetic inductance maybe no need of power lines .

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

One key to reducing the poverty rate is to make sure people who don't live in poverty don't leave the city. One way to do that is to show them their tax dollars at work.

If you are a middle class family making $80K a year and you look around your neighborhood with dirty streets and no municipal services, why stay?

You could start street cleaning in a moderate way with very little money.

You can begin burying power lines modestly but set goals to have certain neighborhoods complete in 5/10/15/20 years.

You could require developers who are developing entire blocks (common in NoLibs, Kensington, Port Richmond, Brewerytown, etc) to bury the power lines adjacent to their projects as one way of starting.

Imagine if Bart Blatstein were required to bury the power lines surrounding his Piazza project 10 years ago when it commenced? Half of Northern Liberties would already be underground.

When the city is digging up a street to do a full replacement of water or gas lines, it could be law to due the damn thing and put everything on the street underground (power, cable, etc).

Yes to all of this

Originally Posted by kingtut

Who knows but their is probably an emerging technology in the next 10 years to deliver power through magnetic inductance maybe no need of power lines .

No to all of this, but kudos for being optimistic.

[Knight Hospitaller]

Originally Posted by kingtut

Who knows but their is probably an emerging technology in the next 10 years to deliver power through magnetic inductance maybe no need of power lines .

Nicola Tesla beat you to it.

[kingtut]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

Nicola Tesla beat you to it.

Maxwell's equations told us this way before Tesla . we now use magnetic induction charging our cell phones but I was referring to material sciences technology in getting around the bottle neck of room temp superconducting conductors to make higher energy transfers possible .

[giantSwan]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

One key to reducing the poverty rate is to make sure people who don't live in poverty don't leave the city. One way to do that is to show them their tax dollars at work.

If you are a middle class family making $80K a year and you look around your neighborhood with dirty streets and no municipal services, why stay?

You could start street cleaning in a moderate way with very little money.

You can begin burying power lines modestly but set goals to have certain neighborhoods complete in 5/10/15/20 years.

You could require developers who are developing entire blocks (common in NoLibs, Kensington, Port Richmond, Brewerytown, etc) to bury the power lines adjacent to their projects as one way of starting.

Imagine if Bart Blatstein were required to bury the power lines surrounding his Piazza project 10 years ago when it commenced? Half of Northern Liberties would already be underground.

When the city is digging up a street to do a full replacement of water or gas lines, it could be law to due the damn thing and put everything on the street underground (power, cable, etc).

Exactly. I never said philly should prioritize this over all other needs. But there are clever ways of getting it done. Additionally, as of today there is no plan. Put a plan together to get it done in 5, 10, even 50 years. With no vision or plan you get status quo (third world country look and feel)

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think a huge % of the clutter on the wires is...Comcast (cable). Those massive black bundles that they have looped around some of the poles are cable fibre. We also have energy choice in PA. If Peco wants to jack rates, go to another provider. The city should just mandate a target goal for all of greater Center City to be buried by 2030, say. Do a mix of federal/private/local/state to cover the costs. If we can find a billion dollars to put new curb cuts in for ADA regulations we should be able to find the $$ for this.

Small point---Peco bills are divided into different parts, one of which is something like a 'transmission' charge which covers the cost of the infrastructure which all suppliers more or less use. So the cost of burying cables could be spread out over a large base of users.
Comcast 'homeruns' their wires from each end user to their junction box which could be up to a block away so there's tons of wires, and they Never take down a unused wire. If there's a problem they just run another wire. The phone cables used to be this way back in the early 60's.
My problem with the curb cuts is that we are now into the 3rd generation of cuts, with every generation required by new regs trying to better serve those with different needs. The 1st wave were just simple curb cuts so that wheelchairs could use the sidewalks. Now we are into cuts that attempt to deal with sight issues and next will be hearing issues. All these desires are great, but they come with a huge costs and how those costs gets paid for seems to rarely be considered. It's not a zero net gain.
Meanwhile out in the real world because of poor quality control many curb cuts aren't drained properly so they become dirt or mud puddles and I see more wheelchair users using bike lanes and not the sidewalks. Good liberal desires don't always mean that the outcome is what is expected and done at a reasonable cost.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Good liberal desires don't always mean that the outcome is what is expected and done at a reasonable cost.

Well to be fare the ADA was co-authored (and signed into law) by the GHW Bush White House so I would caution against making it sound like some sort of liberal utopian project. Though by today's standards I guess Bush 41 was more like a moderate Dem.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Well to be fare the ADA was co-authored (and signed into law) by the GHW Bush White House so I would caution against making it sound like some sort of liberal utopian project. Though by today's standards I guess Bush 41 was more like a moderate Dem.

Redoing the ramps to current ADA regs is a HUGE cost though. From a 2012 Stu Bykofsky column:

The outlay is required by changing federal regulations, according to Terry Gillen, director of federal affairs for the city of Philadelphia. She is, in effect, the liaison to President Obama from Mayor Nutter, who has been a ferocious advocate for the president's re-election.

Philly was an early leader in installing ramps in 1995, under Mayor Rendell, Gillen says, "because the advocacy community sued." Curbs were cut to make them wheelchair-accessible.

OK, the city needed to be goosed into action, but it moved, so far installing 4,958 ramps at 826 intersections. Here's the shocker: The cost of installing the now-mandated ramps at each of the city's 22,000 intersections will be $858 million, according to Streets Department Deputy Commissioner David Perri. (Ramps are upgraded when other paving work is done.)

The cost is high in part because in 2010 the government mandated two ramps per corner instead of the previous one. It had a good reason. It always has a good reason.

Installing new ramps eats up 65 percent of the city's $20-million annual paving budget, leaving only one-third for everything else, says Perri. Each Center City ramp costs $7,500, or $60,000 per intersection. We aren't getting much bang from those bucks.

http://www.philly.com/philly/columni...of_money_.html

[Busy Bee]

I'd love to see the comparative material/labor cost breakdown between American municipalities that construct sidewalks (and ADA ramps) out of poured concrete and European municipalities that use pavers or cobbles. I feel like I already know the answer.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

Redoing the ramps to current ADA regs is a HUGE cost though. From a 2012 Stu Bykofsky column:

The outlay is required by changing federal regulations, according to Terry Gillen, director of federal affairs for the city of Philadelphia. She is, in effect, the liaison to President Obama from Mayor Nutter, who has been a ferocious advocate for the president's re-election.

Philly was an early leader in installing ramps in 1995, under Mayor Rendell, Gillen says, "because the advocacy community sued." Curbs were cut to make them wheelchair-accessible.

OK, the city needed to be goosed into action, but it moved, so far installing 4,958 ramps at 826 intersections. Here's the shocker: The cost of installing the now-mandated ramps at each of the city's 22,000 intersections will be $858 million, according to Streets Department Deputy Commissioner David Perri. (Ramps are upgraded when other paving work is done.)

The cost is high in part because in 2010 the government mandated two ramps per corner instead of the previous one. It had a good reason. It always has a good reason.

Installing new ramps eats up 65 percent of the city's $20-million annual paving budget, leaving only one-third for everything else, says Perri. Each Center City ramp costs $7,500, or $60,000 per intersection. We aren't getting much bang from those bucks.

http://www.philly.com/philly/columni...of_money_.html

No wonder we can't get any major infrastructure work done. The costs are just flat out outrageous.

[nimshady]

[QUOTE=iheartphilly;8383776]No wonder we can't get any major infrastructure work done. The costs are just flat out outrageous.[/QUOTE
$39,000 per curb cut is insane

[Busy Bee]

Outrageous, Flabbergasting, Inconceivable. Take your pick.

If someone can get a new 40 foot residential driveway poured for 4 or 5 thousand dollars, what the hell kind of bilking is going on with installing an ADA ramp? F***ing ridiculous.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

One key to reducing the poverty rate is to make sure people who don't live in poverty don't leave the city. One way to do that is to show them their tax dollars at work.

If you are a middle class family making $80K a year and you look around your neighborhood with dirty streets and no municipal services, why stay?

You could start street cleaning in a moderate way with very little money.

You can begin burying power lines modestly but set goals to have certain neighborhoods complete in 5/10/15/20 years.

You could require developers who are developing entire blocks (common in NoLibs, Kensington, Port Richmond, Brewerytown, etc) to bury the power lines adjacent to their projects as one way of starting.

Imagine if Bart Blatstein were required to bury the power lines surrounding his Piazza project 10 years ago when it commenced? Half of Northern Liberties would already be underground.

When the city is digging up a street to do a full replacement of water or gas lines, it could be law to due the damn thing and put everything on the street underground (power, cable, etc).

This times a billion.

A lot of Philadelphians (including several posters) seem to have this sense that until we have perfect schools, zero crime, and zero poverty we can't fix small things ("aesthetic") that go a long way to making the city a better place for its middle class.

If the city were a house, these posters would demand the thickest walls, double-paned windows, the sturdiest roof, the most rigged foundation as that's all that technically really matters to protect you from the elements... but on the inside of the house the faucet leaks, the shower doesn't work, the floor boards are decaying, the electrical is spotty, and the paint is peeling. Who the hell wants to live there? The idea is...let's have the house stay up right - we'll patch it from time to time, repair it as needed...but, in the meantime, let's fix the fucking sink.