[Dartmouth] 112-114 Wyse Road | 69 m | 20 fl | Proposed

[Jonovision]

Apparently this already had its public meeting and an open survey for feedback over the holidays that has since closed. But you can watch the meeting presentation here.

https://www.shapeyourcityhalifax.ca/...55/videos/6085

[worldlyhaligonian]

That rendering is gorgeous. My new favourite proposal!

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

That rendering is gorgeous. My new favourite proposal!

Absolutely. As always, the quality of materials can make or break a project like this but I'm hopeful. This location seems perfect.

[Saul Goode]

I'm not at all opposed to this project, but I would definitely question the viability of the proposed street-level retail component, particularly considering the lack of parking.

The Sportsplex and Dartmouth Shopping Centre parking lots will be (officially, at least) off-limits to potential patrons, and there's no street parking in the area. Foot and vehicle traffic at this very busy transportation node are highly transient - it's not exactly a pleasurable urban stroll - and I doubt the walk-up traffic would likely support anything more than a convenience store sort of operation, and maybe not even that. Even were parking easy and readily available, I don't see businesses in the building making it a shopping destination either. I mean, good luck to them, but...

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I'm not at all opposed to this project, but I would definitely question the viability of the proposed street-level retail component, particularly considering the lack of parking.

The Sportsplex and Dartmouth Shopping Centre parking lots will be (officially, at least) off-limits to potential patrons, and there's no street parking in the area. Foot and vehicle traffic at this very busy transportation node are highly transient - it's not exactly a pleasurable urban stroll - and I doubt the walk-up traffic would likely support anything more than a convenience store sort of operation, and maybe not even that. Even were parking easy and readily available, I don't see businesses in the building making it a shopping destination either. I mean, good luck to them, but...

It might be a heck of a location to have the top floor a restaurant.

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I'm not at all opposed to this project, but I would definitely question the viability of the proposed street-level retail component, particularly considering the lack of parking.

The Sportsplex and Dartmouth Shopping Centre parking lots will be (officially, at least) off-limits to potential patrons, and there's no street parking in the area. Foot and vehicle traffic at this very busy transportation node are highly transient - it's not exactly a pleasurable urban stroll - and I doubt the walk-up traffic would likely support anything more than a convenience store sort of operation, and maybe not even that. Even were parking easy and readily available, I don't see businesses in the building making it a shopping destination either. I mean, good luck to them, but...

It's being built in a parking lot and the first concern you have is parking for the retail? I have no doubt they will be able to work something into the existing lot for retail parking. The lot doesn't belong to 100% to Sportsplex as it's the primary lot for the transit terminal park and ride system as well.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

It might be a heck of a location to have the top floor a restaurant.

I'll grant you that.

I often thought that would've been a great idea at Metropolitan Place. The view from the 18th floor is absolutely stunning and panoramic, from the far shore of Bedford Basin at one end, to out past Chebucto Head on one side and Devil's Island on the other.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

I have no doubt they will be able to work something into the existing lot for retail parking. The lot doesn't belong to 100% to Sportsplex as it's the primary lot for the transit terminal park and ride system as well.

The part which is not exclusively for either Halifax Transit or Sportsplex use is fully rented out by the Sportsplex, primarily to people who work at Metropolitan Place. And I can tell you they watch it very closely.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

It's being built in a parking lot and the first concern you have is parking for the retail? I have no doubt they will be able to work something into the existing lot for retail parking. The lot doesn't belong to 100% to Sportsplex as it's the primary lot for the transit terminal park and ride system as well.

Not sure how busy this area is normally but there's tons of parking all around here, including apparently unmetered street parking on some of the side streets. There has been a pattern in Halifax of concern about parking with new developments and predicting problems that haven't materialized, at least in terms of the retail units sitting empty or businesses closing down (the easily objectively verifiable outcome). Personally, I don't think the phenomenon of developers accidentally building new structures that kill off demand for the spaces they are adding is common. And sometimes they take a long view with ground floor spaces that would in any case not be that appealing to live in. There's potentially a lot of construction going in around here in the next few years, and there may be a shift away from car orientation (it would be hard to get more car oriented around there).

This proposal looks quite nice. Fathom has a lot of good projects in the works. I like that they beefed up the podium a bit since this is such an open area. I think podiums on modern towers are often a bit too small. It makes sense to have medium scale or large scale podiums in busy commercial areas and along wide streets.

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

The part which is not exclusively for either Halifax Transit or Sportsplex use is fully rented out by the Sportsplex, primarily to people who work at Metropolitan Place. And I can tell you they watch it very closely.

Interesting. Still, parking would be one of my last concerns in this area as it does seem abundant.

Here's the still from the presentation. I agree above with the podium sizes around Halifax, this one seems to fit the corner perfectly.

side note: Imagine riding a bike on that road without a helmet. Old guy must have a death wish.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

Not sure how busy this area is normally but there's tons of parking all around here, including apparently unmetered street parking on some of the side streets. There has been a pattern in Halifax of concern about parking with new developments and predicting problems that haven't materialized, at least in terms of the retail units sitting empty or businesses closing down (the easily objectively verifiable outcome). Personally, I don't think the phenomenon of developers accidentally building new structures that kill off demand for the spaces they are adding is common. And sometimes they take a long view with ground floor spaces that would in any case not be that appealing to live in. There's potentially a lot of construction going in around here in the next few years.

This proposal looks quite nice. Fathom has a lot of good projects in the works. I like that they beefed up the podium a bit since this is such an open area. I think podiums on modern towers are often a bit too small. It makes sense to have medium scale or large scale podiums in busy commercial areas and along wide streets.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree it's a nice proposal. I'm in favor of it.

I'm simply observing that I know the area very well and the existing parking area is heavily used and largely spoken for, and patrolled. It will not be an easy in-and-out for potential customers of retail spaces on the ground floor, unless the developer also makes provision for customer parking within the complex - which seems doubtful. It's a pretty compact site to begin with and simply building in enough parking for residents will be costly enough.

There is limited street parking, but none that is attractively close for retail custom. It would take a particularly attractive retail outlet for me to want to park a block or two away and cross one or more very busy multi-lane intersections to get to it. It would have to be real "destination" retail because it's not apt to attract much drive-by custom. I think most consumers would likely pass it by for somewhere more convenient.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

Interesting. Still, parking would be one of my last concerns in this area as it does seem abundant.

"Seem" is the key word. I can assure you it's not "abundant", unless by "abundant" you mean "virtually non-existent". As you said in an earlier post, "it's being built in a parking lot". Unfortunately, it's someone else's lot.

And just to be clear: I'm only speaking about the viability of the proposed ground-level retail. I'm sure there'll be adequate parking for the residents.

[ns_kid]

I agree this is an exciting development, with the potential to transform this prominent but architecturally undistinguished intersection. The tired strip malls, gas stations and fast food joints that have surrounded this location since 1955 are surely ready for redevelopment. I'm interested enough in this project to say I would seriously consider moving there, assuming it's completed in the two or three years when we're ready to downsize. (That said, my sense of the building, based on unit size, location and amenities is that its target market is more likely young professionals than retirees.)

What troubles me most about the current plan is the question of access. The original plan had access to underground parking at the northeast corner of the structure, effectively off the signalled Nantucket/Sportsplex intersection and through what is now the Sportsplex parking lot. City planners apparently told the developer that would not be allowed, and don't bother asking, thank you very much (even though that access was permitted for years for the existing office building, former Scotiabank).

Because the rules for the Dartmouth Common lands will protect this city-owned asphalt for parking, our green, safety-conscious municipality will force the developer to move access to Wyse Road or Nantucket, just metres from one of the busiest intersections in the city. (The current plans show the driveway off Nantucket, exactly 24 metres from the corner of Wyse.) Here's the scenario: you exit the building at rush hour, heading for the Macdonald Bridge, literally just across the street. Your car will idle as you wait to turn right into traffic on Nantucket, crossing a sidewalk and the (planned) bike lane. Then, another few metres up the hill, you'll turn right into the Sportsplex parking lot (yes, the same one planners said you couldn't enter directly from the building), either to proceed to the (unsignalled) Thistle Street intersection where you'll edge your way into the traffic crawling to Wyse Road toward the bridge; or, perhaps more likely, you'll pull a u-turn in the parking lot and try to turn left into the bridge-bound traffic on Nantucket.

No doubt I'm obtuse but the logic of this escapes me completely. We'll generate emissions and set up traffic/pedestrian conflicts. But we will protect the integrity of our precious Common lands (i.e. spaces for parked cars).

As a sidebar, it is true that moving the parking access from the north east corner has made the north (Sportsplex) side of the proposed structure much more visually interesting, instead of the blank brick wall that featured in the original drawings. But it also seems to have reduced the already limited number of underground parking spaces from 104 to 100.

Another sidebar: The developer touts the building's location near a major transit hub (Bridge Terminal) as a selling point. It's true, though I can't help but think those 200 metres will seem an awfully long walk across the wind-swept Sportsplex parking lot and traffic lanes on a cold rainy day. Great bridge access though for those inclined to walk or bike the bridge.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the staff report on this one.

[Keith P.]

Saul's and ns_kid's comments about access and parking are spot-on. This is not a pedestrian-friendly location in any way. It is not particularly car-friendly either. There is no on-street parking nearby. Lot parking is by permit only. Being a pedestrian here involves crossing very wide intersections and being on the lookout for heavy and often fast-moving traffic as one has to expect given that it is one of the few ways to exit the peninsula. Plus one has to deal with the habituees of the area which are not the most pleasant. While Sam Austin has vowed to narrow Wyse Rd down to one vehicle lane that will not change any of those things except to make congestion worse.

I suppose there may be a market for these residential units but the traffic noise will not be pleasant to deal with. Those who work in Metropolitan Place or teach at Dartmouth High may take a few units but the majority will be working elsewhere. I'm not sure that having slightly less expensive accommodations will be a big enough draw for those who work in DT Halifax. I can tell you that the walk to and from the ferry terminal is not pleasant unless you are in very good condition due to the hills. Otherwise the bus or a vehicle needs to deal with rush hour bridge traffic which can be nightmarish.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Sam Austin has vowed to narrow Wyse Rd down to one vehicle lane

I missed that. Please tell me you're kidding.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by ns_kid

...either to proceed to the (unsignalled) Thistle Street intersection where you'll edge your way into the traffic crawling to Wyse Road toward the bridge; or, perhaps more likely, you'll pull a u-turn in the parking lot and try to turn left into the bridge-bound traffic on Nantucket.

Or, you can try a right turn just north of the Sportsplex, and try to exit from the parking lot (right beside where the Zamboni dumps its snow) onto and across Wyse and into one of the northbound left-turning lanes for the Macdonald. This can sometimes be tricky to execute, depending on traffic volume, but with enough chutzpah and indifference to car horn noise, it's possible.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I missed that. Please tell me you're kidding.

I hope so too!

[someone123]

Why does the bridge even have a toll plaza these days? The toll bridges around here either go by transponder or they take a picture of the vehicle license plates. Traffic flows normally across the bridge and there are no special tie-ups created on either end.

Ultimately the bridge has 3 vehicle lanes and will be the bottleneck around that area. Having a toll plaza that fans out to 10 lanes will make traffic much worse by creating extra merging. Wyse is similar. It is possible to artificially create traffic tie-ups by adding lots of extra lanes that don't ultimately go anywhere, and Halifax is full of these because they were added around the 50's-70's for traffic expansion projects that were never completed. Another possibility would be to adapt the lanes to the flow on the bridge. There is no reason to have 1 lane of traffic from the bridge that is served at off-peak times by 7 lanes on the connecting streets.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by someone123

Why does the bridge even have a toll plaza these days? The toll bridges around here either go by transponder or they take a picture of the vehicle license plates. Traffic flows normally across the bridge and there are no special tie-ups created on either end.

No argument there. I believe we are in for some changes as part of the recent toll increase announcement. Still, you will have those who will want to pay cash.

Wyse is similar. It is possible to artificially create traffic tie-ups by adding lots of extra lanes that don't ultimately go anywhere, and Halifax is full of these because they were added around the 50's-70's for traffic expansion projects that were never completed. Another possibility would be to adapt the lanes to the flow on the bridge. There is no reason to have 1 lane of traffic from the bridge that is served at off-peak times by 7 lanes on the connecting streets.

Unfortunately, yes, those projects made too much sense for them to ever be built here. So instead we have made a residential street, Woodland Ave, and another, Victoria Rd., one of the main access points to the bridge and condemned the property owners there to traffic hell for the last 60 years. There is a proposal from the '60s in the HRM archives that shows Wyse Rd being put below grade at Nantucket to allow that intersection to actually flow. It is self evident that grade separation there has always been needed. But now I guess everyone is magically going to ride bikes everywhere. Apparently even those need grade separation according to the proponents of the bike flyover at the Halifax end of the Macdonald.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by someone123

Why does the bridge even have a toll plaza these days? The toll bridges around here either go by transponder or they take a picture of the vehicle license plates. Traffic flows normally across the bridge and there are no special tie-ups created on either end.

The plaza, with its multiplicity of lanes, is just an artifact of earlier times when all tolls were coin (either cash or token). Most tolls (I believe ~ 85%) are collected electronically by transponder now.

Based on my own experience, I don't think having what might be considered "surplus" toll lanes has been terribly obstructive at all. I don't think the plaza is a real problem. I'm sure it'll be removed in some future round of improvements.