Great Lakes Cities

[Docere]

Toronto has gotten around to naming its alleys over the past decade or so. There are also a few alley streets like this:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65996...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65331...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.65676...7i13312!8i6656

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i don't know why her mind would be blown because chicago has alley houses too (they're called "coach houses" in chicago parlance), but they're not terribly common.

they've been outlawed by the zoning code since the '50s, so all that remain are older grandfathered units.

In Pittsburgh alleys always have the suffix "way." Almost universally they have allowable traffic in both directions, but are usually so narrow it's impossible to have two travel lanes, making them into sort of ugly woonerfs by default.

Many of the alleys with homes on them were just narrow streets that the city eventually designated as being alleys (for example, this is an alley I used to live on). Others began with lots with street-to-alley frontage, but were later subdivided.

This is probably the most interesting alley in the city. Many of the homes were decorated by artists from around the globe, who were brought to the area through the efforts of a nearby art museum (which actually has an entrance on the alley) and nonprofit.

[pj3000]

^^ It's different in Pittsburgh though... much of the neighborhood is composed of alley houses. The alleys are actual streets with houses fronting them that were built at the same time as the homes on the main streets in the neighborhood. Alley homes were cheaper and smaller, and were often rentals for shift laborers. They didn't add names to the streets just to have mailing addresses; these middle streets in between the larger blocks were part of the original plan... harkening back to Pittsburgh's English midlands industrial roots.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Docere

It's pretty hard to think of "Canadian equivalents" of American universities, since they're all public and serve a different mandate (I've done degrees in both countries).

What for example is the University of Toronto's US "equivalent"? Academically it ranks similar to UCLA and Michigan, but it's in the heart of one of NA's major cities (UCLA is a suburban campus, Michigan is in the American college town of Ann Arbor). Private prestige urban universities like Columbia, Chicago and Penn are much smaller, more private and more physically separated from their surrounding areas, while U of T flows into the city pretty smoothly (I suppose it's like NYU in that respect).

Ohio state
Minnesota
USC
Miami

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Ohio state
Minnesota
USC
Miami

Ohio State and Minnesota are both enormous public universities.

USC and Miami are both smaller, private universities.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by pj3000

^^ It's different in Pittsburgh though... much of the neighborhood is composed of alley houses. The alleys are actual streets with houses fronting them that were built at the same time as the homes on the main streets in the neighborhood. Alley homes were cheaper and smaller, and were often rentals for shift laborers. They didn't add names to the streets just to have mailing addresses; these middle streets in between the larger blocks were part of the original plan... harkening back to Pittsburgh's English midlands industrial roots.

While this is true in the oldest neighborhoods (particularly the rowhouse neighborhoods), it's not universally true, because once you get to the "streetcar suburb" era the alleys stop having buildings fronting on them, but still remain named roads. For example in my own neighborhood (Morningside) there is only one house that I'm aware of that fronts on an alley. The same is broadly true in nearby neighborhoods like Highland Park and East Liberty.

Regardless, I love that the alleys are named, because some of them have such fantastic names, like Asteroid Way, Hyena Way, Antarctic Way, Path Way, Vote Way, Our Way, etc.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Ohio State and Minnesota are both enormous public universities.

USC and Miami are both smaller, private universities.

I think he means the urban settings, not the enrollments.

USC is not a small university, BTW. It has over 40,000 students. And I'm not sure student enrollment is that illustrative in comparing university size. Harvard has an enormous campus and only 20,000 students.

Harvard probably looks many times "bigger" than University of Central Florida, which has the highest enrollment in the U.S.

[Docere]

I think it's pretty easy to name universities in urban settings!

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by eschaton

While this is true in the oldest neighborhoods (particularly the rowhouse neighborhoods), it's not universally true, because once you get to the "streetcar suburb" era the alleys stop having buildings fronting on them, but still remain named roads. For example in my own neighborhood (Morningside) there is only one house that I'm aware of that fronts on an alley. The same is broadly true in nearby neighborhoods like Highland Park and East Liberty.

Regardless, I love that the alleys are named, because some of them have such fantastic names, like Asteroid Way, Hyena Way, Antarctic Way, Path Way, Vote Way, Our Way, etc.

Right, I was thinking more South Side, North Side, Lawrenceville, etc... the older "Victorian era" neighborhoods, the older, pre-auto areas.

I've always been partial to Our Way... I used to use it to bike from Oakland to Downtown.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think he means the urban settings, not the enrollments.

USC is not a small university, BTW. It has over 40,000 students. And I'm not sure student enrollment is that illustrative in comparing university size. Harvard has an enormous campus and only 20,000 students.

Harvard probably looks many times "bigger" than University of Central Florida, which has the highest enrollment in the U.S.

Oh ok, got it.

Wow, I didn't realize that USC was that large.

I would consider Miami to be suburban in setting though. It certainly has a separated campus that is surrounded by affluent suburban neighborhood in Coral Gables. Far from an urban campus setting.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I had a coworker who moved to Pittsburgh from Chicago. She asked why the alleys have names here. I pointed out that there would be no way to deliver mail to the houses in the alleys otherwise. That we have houses in our alleys blew her mind, because in Chicago they're just used for utilities and trash pickup.

naw, in st. louis they put an "R" for rear behind the address for the alley houses.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

naw, in st. louis they put an "R" for rear behind the address for the alley houses.

That's different though. In Pittsburgh, the alleys/houses in older neighborhoods aren't "rear" to anything.

This is what the "alley" streets look like on the South Side, for instance. They are actual streets.



Or Lawrenceville

[Centropolis]

you could certainly slap an R on all of those addresses that are on the other side of the block. i was adressing the fact that its NOT impossible to not name alleys. used to be plenty of full alley streets in st. louis...still are plenty of residences and even businesses that ONLY front the alley...thats my point. density is immaterial in theory...you can do it either way.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

my favorite thing about chicago-style side street urbansim: all the fucking trees and greenery.

chicago side streets are some of the most pleasant streets to stroll through, IMO. urbs in horto.

but yeah, it does come off a bit less intense and comprehensive than east coast urbanism, because it is.

Yeah, but everyone says Chicago has less parkland than it should. The semi public setback and parkway configuration of the neighborhoods more than makes up for it in my opinion. Between my yard and the semi-garden nature of the blocks around my house, I almost never need to go to the park for anything.

[Docere]

Re: Kingston - a link to an SSP phototour:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=191464

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Yeah, but everyone says Chicago has less parkland than it should. The semi public setback and parkway configuration of the neighborhoods more than makes up for it in my opinion. Between my yard and the semi-garden nature of the blocks around my house, I almost never need to go to the park for anything.

Really? Can you just hang out in the green space in front of someone else's home?

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Really? Can you just hang out in the green space in front of someone else's home?

All buildings in Chicago are set back at least 10' from the sidewalk. Many have iron fences containing that space, but if there's no fence its more or less public space. I wouldn't recommend going up someone's front stoop and hanging out on their porch, but the 10' setback is a transitional space from public to private space. Many people spend all summer hanging out on their front stoop.

Where the real garden part comes in is the parkway strip between the sidewalk and street. In almost all residential areas there is at least a 10' parkway between the street and sidewalk planted with grass and trees. This is totally public space and you are free to roam it as you please. All the sidewalks therefore have at least 10' of green space on both sides. Some streets are wider and have more space and are even more park like. Here's a great example of a proper Chicago side street not far from where I live:

https://goo.gl/maps/Fkm38HTr3Ew

The interesting thing about Chicago side streets is the transitional nature of the space. You usually know everyone on your block so the street often becomes something of a shared yard with kids from the area all playing together on it or people walking their dogs and chatting. In the summer there are block parties organized on many blocks where the shut off the street for a day and everyone BBQ's together and shares beer and food. This is also replicated on a neighborhood level where the main retail strips in each neighborhood shuts the street for a weekend and has a street festival which helps bring everyone in the area together.

It's really a unique culture and it's driven by the design of the environment. The kind of thing that is very old school Americana. But it all starts with this semi parkland distributed evenly to all blocks of the city. Remember our alleys also mean that all the nasty stuff is tucked neatly behind the buildings so the street becomes a very clean, pleasant, almost formal space. Even houses with fenced front setbacks almost exclusively use them as gardens. My house is fenced and I've turned the space into a no humans zone where it's solid greenery from my building to the sidewalk. Some people even take over the parkway and cultivate it into a garden as well particularly when the trees get too thick to allow grass to thrive. This really results in a feeling of strips of parkland in front of every house.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Here's a great example of a proper Chicago side street not far from where I live:

https://goo.gl/maps/Fkm38HTr3Ew

that doesn't look substantively different from my street, except for the fact that some of the front yards are fenced off from when daley was on his big wrought iron fence kick back in the '90s. our building's yard is fenced off. i'm half-tempted to bring up the idea of ripping out the fence to our condo association. the fences don't seem to serve much purpose, other than being a visual blight.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9657...7i13312!8i6656

many people from eastern cities will look at the above as quasi-suburban and "open", but it's important to remember that on a functional level, my census tract still maintains a very respectable density of 26,000 ppsm, which is as dense as any tract in a "tighter" city like pittsburgh. it just looks different because the housing units are all stacked vertically into flats to open up more ground space, as opposed to the housing units taking up more horizontal ground space as in a pittsburgh row-house hood.

different looks, but similar functional densities.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that doesn't look substantively different from my street, except for the fact that some of the front yards are fenced off from when daley was on his big wrought iron fence kick back in the '90s. our building's yard is fenced off. i'm half-tempted to bring up the idea of ripping out the fence to our condo association. the fences don't seem to serve much purpose, other than being a visual blight.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9657...7i13312!8i6656

many people from eastern cities will look at the above as quite suburban and "open", but it's important to remember that on a functional level, my census tract still maintains a very respectable density 26,000 ppsm, which is as dense as any tract in a "tighter" city like pittsburgh. it just looks different because the housing units are all stacked vertically into flats to open up more ground space, as opposed to the housing units taking up more horizontal ground space as in a row-house hood.

different looks, but similar functional densities.

Yeah, to my eyes, it looks pretty suburban. I don't mind small setbacks, but I like them to be taken up by front porches or flower beds. I hate hate hate having grass in a front setback, because then there's this social obligation to keep it maintained and trim it every week, while you can let your back yard go to pot for 2-3 weeks and no one will ever know.

I live in a streetcar suburban neighborhood here in Pittsburgh. My home is set back approximately 12 feet from the porch to the sidewalk, but I have what is locally called a "high side" home, meaning there is a small hill with about a 45 degree slope covered with ivy which takes up most of the frontage. Plus of course several sets of steps. If there wasn't a street light directly in front of my home, I could dig out my front yard and put a garage door going directly into my basement with minimal grade change.

I sometimes hang out on my porch in nice weather, but there's literally nowhere flat in my front yard where I'd just hang out, so I'm never out there unless I'm weeding or something. I honestly can't imagine just hanging out in the front for everyone to see, but I know a few families down the block with flatter lawns do it on occasion.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I hate hate hate having grass in a front setback, because then there's this social obligation to keep it maintained and trim it every week,

there's no social obligation to mow your front lawn every week in chicago. if you hate lawn mowing, then you can simply turn you front yard into a garden, like our neighbors to the west of us have done. no grass to mow!

there is no law that says the front setback has to be filled in with grass, that's just what most people do. if you lived in chicago and hated, hated, hated mowing your front lawn, you'd just be one of those people that turns their front yard into a garden.

in our building, i made a deal with my neighbor upstairs that i'd take care of all the snow shoveling in the winter if he took care of all the yard work during the rest of the year. i won!