NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[newyorker]

Please tell me this isn't the end of this project.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by newyorker

Please tell me this isn't the end of this project.

No, we've barely begun the process. But the process has to be completed, similar to the city's own ULURP approvals process.

Another look at the 8 sites where 10 towers are to be developed.

[Sky88]

I imagine Empire State Development will soon have to provide more details and new designs of the towers that will be built on the various sites. Who knows if Empire State Development will have chosen the builders and architects who will take care of the project?

Would we also see if Vornado will present new designs of his towers?

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Sky88

I imagine Empire State Development will soon have to provide more details and [SIZE="2"]new designs of the towers that will be built on the various sites. Who knows if Empire State Development will have chosen the builders and architects who will take care of the project?

There are no designs. This is little more than a site plan with designated FARs. Whatever gets built can be taller, and even shorter than whatever the graphics show. As we know, giving approximate number of stories (floors) on a skyscraper will do little go give accurate heights, especially considering that these are office towers.

This is basically another Hudson Yards rezoning, but in central midtown. It's more like Hudson Yards than midtown east, in that it provides sites for larger floor office towers.

[NYguy]

A more realistic look at sites to be developed. (Even smaller if you remove 1 Penn Plaza).

[NYguy]

A little more background...



1.



2.






3.





4.





5.




6.




Hudson Yards vs Empire Station


7.





8.

New Penn Station entrances, as well as existing and under construction entrances...







9.

15 Penn Plaza and the Manhattan Mall comprise sites 7 and 8. The retail component of the sites will almost double what is there now. Both sites are comparable in size to 270 Park Avenue (80,000 sf) and the zoning in this new district will be equal in FAR to the densest areas of the Hudson Yards (four corners) and Midtown East (Vanderbilt Corridor). Site 2, which consists of 2 towers, will be slightly higher in allowable FAR.






10.

Potential shared streets...




11.

This development overall (with 20 msf) will be the equivalent of constructing two World Trade Centers. As far as the towers go, the norther half of the development will most likely get underway first, while the southern half of the development builds out the Penn Station expansion.

[Sky88]

15 Penn Plaza and the Manhattan Mall comprise sites 7 and 8. The retail component of the sites will almost double what is there now. Both sites are comparable in size to 270 Park Avenue (80,000 sf) and the zoning in this new district will be equal in FAR to the densest areas of the Hudson Yards (four corners) and Midtown East (Vanderbilt Corridor). Site 2, which consists of 2 towers, will be slightly higher in allowable FAR.

Correct ... and I imagined this with a tower of 1,770 ft tall.

[NYguy]

^ Well, that visual is not off, just missing a few towers.

[citybooster]

Originally Posted by NYguy

^ Well, that visual is not off, just missing a few towers.

Damn, New York 2030 is going to be truly amazing to behold!

[Zapatan]

I wonder if we'll finally see New York's signature tower here

~450 meter buildings are great and all but something that dominates the rest would be nice.

Damn, New York 2030 is going to be truly amazing to behold!

Beyond insane is what it'll be

[chris08876]

Super talls are sprouting like weeds.

2024 onward should be promising.

Just for perspective.

When we include potential prospects (not even on that list below), we are looking at a lot of super talls!!!

[Sky88]

Originally Posted by NYguy
^ Well, that visual is not off, just missing a few towers.

Not really with all the towers, but with a few more towers.

[NYguy]

^ That's getting there. The NIMBYs would flip over such visuals, but there's no way of knowing what designs will be at this point. Only Vornado's plans for 15 Penn - which are constantly changing - and a brief look at the Penn East tower have been shown. I'd say the potential here is for at least 6 supertalls.

Just looking at the Penn East tower, one of the smaller sites (site 5), you get an idea of how massive and tall these towers will be. The plan for 15 Penn will continue to evolve now that the Manhattan Mall site is in play for a massive tower. I wouldn't be shocked if there were some type of twin-towered or similar-towered arrangement there, with a wintergarden (there will be a large amount of retail on that site). All of this will be connected to Penn Station, the PATH Terminal, and numerous subway lines.
















Just for fun, remembering Vornado and Related throwing this out there, last go round...

[SkyHigher]

Oh come on.....many of these towers will be downgraded or won't get built simply because there won't be the demand there was before. Acting like things are normal is ludicrous. NYC will bounce back at the earliest in a few years but it won't be the same as before.

Just as long as a tower or two over takes CPT asap I can be happy. It's going to be a long 5-7 years minimum in that case.


Obviously this guy below is about as pessimistic as it gets. But it's still some food for thought. NYC as we knew it is never coming back.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-changed.html


I would have thought we'd see some projects fast tracked and up and running before the full damage of this crisis is seen.

2WTC better get it's ass in gear!

[Zapatan]

Originally Posted by SkyHigher

Oh come on.....many of these towers will be downgraded or won't get built simply because there won't be the demand there was before. Acting like things are normal is ludicrous. NYC will bounce back at the earliest in a few years but it won't be the same as before.

Just as long as a tower or two over takes CPT asap I can be happy. It's going to be a long 5-7 years minimum in that case.


Obviously this guy below is about as pessimistic as it gets. But it's still some food for thought. NYC as we knew it is never coming back.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-changed.html


I would have thought we'd see some projects fast tracked and up and running before the full damage of this crisis is seen.

2WTC better get it's ass in gear!

Luckily I don't think this would start for a while, as far as the article goes it's just an opinion piece, people are often overly negative and exaggerate things.

Remember all the "the US will never see skyscrapers again" articles after 9/11? And yet here we are...

[SkyHigher]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Luckily I don't think this would start for a while, as far as the article goes it's just an opinion piece, people are often overly negative and exaggerate things.

Remember all the "the US will never see skyscrapers again" articles after 9/11? And yet here we are...

Or films about terrorism. Yeh I remember. This is something very different. 9/11 happened and action was taken. So called measures were put in place. Skyscrapers were made as safe as they could be. This pandemic is on going and will be for many years. We are only at the start. It's affects are literally 'everything' and the city has never faced such a grave threat. This isn't part of the city. It is every city.

You can't compare it to anything before because as I said it's ongoing, it's a worldwide event.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by SkyHigher

Oh come on.....many of these towers will be downgraded or won't get built simply because there won't be the demand there was before. Acting like things are normal is ludicrous. NYC will bounce back at the earliest in a few years but it won't be the same as before.

We've done this foolish dance before. We won't do that here.

I would have thought we'd see some projects fast tracked and up and running before the full damage of this crisis is seen.

It's called planning. These towers don't just jump out of the ground because someone thinks it's a good idea. Do you remember the financial crisis, when everything stopped around the world, including the massive development over at the Hudson Yards. Took a little while, but that got started, and is well on it's way to being completed.

Anyone who thinks businesses will lead a mass exodus out of the city is just an idiot.

For the rest of the room, the smart people know that the business of headquarter location and lease signing (new and renewal) will go on, throughout any crises. That means years of planning as well.

Originally Posted by Zapatan

Luckily I don't think this would start for a while, as far as the article goes it's just an opinion piece, people are often overly negative and exaggerate things.

Don't pay attention to "opinion" pieces, we're dead center in the middle of a pandemic, and yet leases are STILL being signed.

Originally Posted by SkyHigher

It's affects are literally 'everything' and the city has never faced such a grave threat. This isn't part of the city. It is every city.

You can't compare it to anything before because as I said it's ongoing, it's a worldwide event.

Yes, it is a worldwide event. We are still in the year of the pandemic. To suggests everything is going to be shut down for years, however, is ridiculous. As far as never happening before, you may want to look into the pandemic of 1918...

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-res...emic-h1n1.html

It is estimated that about 500 million people or one-third of the world’s population became infected with this virus. The number of deaths was estimated to be at least 50 million worldwide with about 675,000 occurring in the United States.

We're not even close.

Many places (including New York) have already shown how to defeat this virus and office buildings among other key places in life have adapted with more safety measures.

But beyond all of that, this thread is about the rezoning around Penn Station. Your concerns about the virus are overstated, and belong elsewhere.

[SkyHigher]

Originally Posted by newyorker

Please tell me this isn't the end of this project.

Probably not but it will be inevitably a lot different now due to the ongoing pandemic.

[chris08876]

Some extra slides:

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by SkyHigher

Probably not but it will be inevitably a lot different now due to the ongoing pandemic.

The pandemic is ongoing, but has no bearing on this project.



The northern half of this project (sites 4 - 8) will likely present office towers before the southern half, which is where the expansion of Penn Station will be taking shape.
As Vornado controlled sites, they are already primed for development.

Sites 7 and 8 in particular, will be massive towers with a lot of retail, just over 400,000 sf (the Manhattan Mall, site 8, currently has about 240,000 sf).











The southern end (sites 1 - 3) is where we will see the actual expansion of Penn Station tracks, followed by office development.







Site 2 will be a massive development of 6.3 msf split between two towers, and a large public plaza.







Site 1 will be a mixture of office, residential, hotel.