Arenas closing in downtown Ottawa

[phil235]

I thought I'd start a thread on what I think is an important issue that isn't getting much attention. As most people know, since the start of the pandemic, a number of the downtown arenas have been converted to Covid testing centres. Currently, virtually every central arena is out of commission. I was speaking to someone from the City tonight, and he told me that at least two of the arenas (McNabb and Tom Brown) would not re-open. Further, as has been mentioned here, Sandy Hill is going to close in the next few years, and Brewer is not likely to re-open for years.

At a time when our official plan aims to increase population density in core neighbourhoods, it seems both wrong-headed and a bit underhanded to use this situation to close downtown arenas. Not only does it leave the central city vastly underserved by rec facilities, but it also runs counter to the principle of 15-minute neighbourhoods that the official plan is based on. Also, arenas like McNabb and Tom Brown serve lower income and immigrant communities that cannot easily access rinks in the outlying areas.

Since this issue seems to be flying under the radar, I wanted to at least raise it and hopefully get people talking about it a little bit. The City shouldn't be allowed to use the cover of the pandemic to do this without proper debate.

[hwy418]

Good point, but it's no secret in the minor hockey community that all these rinks are well past their due date and were already slated to be demolished or replaced entirely in the very near future. There was a condition report on all the City-owned rinks prepared a few years ago, but I can't seem to find it right now. The City will need to replace these rinks with double or triple pads as building single-pad rinks no longer makes economic sense.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by hwy418

Good point, but it's no secret in the minor hockey community that all these rinks are well past their due date and were already slated to be demolished or replaced entirely in the very near future. There was a condition report on all the City-owned rinks prepared a few years ago, but I can't seem to find it right now. The City will need to replace these rinks with double or triple pads as building single-pad rinks no longer makes economic sense.

I know that’s the official position, but is it actually true? Sandy Hill is the same age as Canterbury, where they just invested in a brand new outdoor pad that is constantly booked. Tom Brown is newer than both of them. Both of those arenas have lots of room to add outdoor pads or second surfaces and gain some efficiency. The common denominator with those rinks is that the land values are very high. We’re apparently willing to put a price on recreation land in the densest parts of the city, which makes no sense.

The other question is whether double or triple pads in outlying areas can actually be replacements for downtown arenas. They certainly don’t serve the communities that I mentioned, and they make everyone else drive more. It strikes me as a continuation of a disturbing trend in Ottawa of pushing key services out into the suburbs. Quite the opposite of what they say publicly, or what is in the published plans.

[J.OT13]

The City is hyper-focused on serving newer, low-density suburbs while cramming more people in central areas. Another example of the City's disregard for the urban core is that the small green patch at Tom Brown will now be used for TNext parking for a while, after Mechanicsville already lost Laroche and Lemieux Island.

No arena or community centre should close or be demolished before a replacement has been built. Basic urban planning.

[Dzingle Bells]

This is a big issue in Toronto. I tried to referee hockey when I first moved here. I didn't have a car so tried using transit to get to and from the rinks but eventually had to stop because it took so long to get to all the arenas. There are very few downtown arenas and even the more suburban ones are not near transit stations. I know the vast majority of people drive to arenas because of the equipment needed so transit access isn't a high priority.

It would be great if Ottawa could find a way to keep some of the downtown ice pads.

[DEWLine]

Well, today I'm watching a joint meeting of Planning and Community+Protective Services Committees re: parkland facility planning. Not sure how that will impact the rink situation...?

[J.OT13]

Such a shame that RVL fell through. The NHL arena and Sensplex would have been huge for the downtown area, along with the Abilities Centre.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Dzingle Bells

This is a big issue in Toronto. I tried to referee hockey when I first moved here. I didn't have a car so tried using transit to get to and from the rinks but eventually had to stop because it took so long to get to all the arenas. There are very few downtown arenas and even the more suburban ones are not near transit stations. I know the vast majority of people drive to arenas because of the equipment needed so transit access isn't a high priority.

It would be great if Ottawa could find a way to keep some of the downtown ice pads.

Especially one like McNabb that people in Centretown can walk to. (It's kind of like Moss Park in Toronto).

The bigger issue is that this seems to be an opportunistic move by the City (the arenas are already closed, so we can just leave them closed). It is being done outside the planning process, with very little public debate. And the rec plan is based on number of facilities per zone, so they can close central rinks without replacing them in the same neighbourhoods.

[Coldrsx]

Originally Posted by phil235

I thought I'd start a thread on what I think is an important issue that isn't getting much attention. As most people know, since the start of the pandemic, a number of the downtown arenas have been converted to Covid testing centres. Currently, virtually every central arena is out of commission. I was speaking to someone from the City tonight, and he told me that at least two of the arenas (McNabb and Tom Brown) would not re-open. Further, as has been mentioned here, Sandy Hill is going to close in the next few years, and Brewer is not likely to re-open for years.

At a time when our official plan aims to increase population density in core neighbourhoods, it seems both wrong-headed and a bit underhanded to use this situation to close downtown arenas. Not only does it leave the central city vastly underserved by rec facilities, but it also runs counter to the principle of 15-minute neighbourhoods that the official plan is based on. Also, arenas like McNabb and Tom Brown serve lower income and immigrant communities that cannot easily access rinks in the outlying areas.

Since this issue seems to be flying under the radar, I wanted to at least raise it and hopefully get people talking about it a little bit. The City shouldn't be allowed to use the cover of the pandemic to do this without proper debate.

We have big boxed store our rec centres and are slowly eroding many walkable community amenities.

That said, we are losing a community rink here in Central Edmonton and so a replacement was worked into Rogers Place and is adjacent to it with free skating and even some free hockey lessons for area residents.

[MoreTrains]

I mean, specific to Sandy Hill, I find it concerning that there hasnt been (or maybe there has I dont know) a look into a residential/sportsplex combo. They could, in concert with another developer, add two or three new pads with underground parking and residential above. This style already exists across the world (though usually with retail in lieu of residential) such as in Montreal or Singapore. Even Muscat Oman has an ice rink in the 'downtown' area.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

That said, we are losing a community rink here in Central Edmonton and so a replacement was worked into Rogers Place and is adjacent to it with free skating and even some free hockey lessons for area residents.

In Ottawa, the closest we got to an NHL arena with attached community ice pads downtown was a series of pretty pictures. Thanks Melnyk.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

I mean, specific to Sandy Hill, I find it concerning that there hasnt been (or maybe there has I dont know) a look into a residential/sportsplex combo. They could, in concert with another developer, add two or three new pads with underground parking and residential above. This style already exists across the world (though usually with retail in lieu of residential) such as in Montreal or Singapore. Even Muscat Oman has an ice rink in the 'downtown' area.

Pretty sure that there is an understanding with UOttawa that the land will become a new sports complex for the school, sans arena. That deal should be subject to public scrutiny.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by phil235

Pretty sure that there is an understanding with UOttawa that the land will become a new sports complex for the school, sans arena. That deal should be subject to public scrutiny.

I mean UO technically already has two areas to itself, so if UO is purchasing the land, sure. But as the City I would require a caveat to be made that the general public and municipal sports leagues should then have access to the UO rinks which might make the plan change to include rinks anyways.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

I mean UO technically already has two areas to itself, so if UO is purchasing the land, sure. But as the City I would require a caveat to be made that the general public and municipal sports leagues should then have access to the UO rinks which might make the plan change to include rinks anyways.

Agreed, though the UO rinks are already busy, and the university has priority for bookings. The only real replacement for Sandy Hill would be a complex that includes a new ice pad or two with an arrangement that guarantees community access to the rinks.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Originally Posted by phil235

Pretty sure that there is an understanding with UOttawa that the land will become a new sports complex for the school, sans arena. That deal should be subject to public scrutiny.

The rub is that the land under the Sandy Hill Arena belongs to the NCC not the City.The City leases the land for practically nothing. The NCC takes forever to make a decsion and then act on it.

The last info on what UO wants to build there does not include an ice pad. It does envision BBall/VBall courts and a Competiton (olympic size) swimming pool. The pool could be used by local city clubs for competiton. A field house for track and field indoor winter training is on their want list. It to would be shared with the local community and take some of the pressure off of the Louis Riel Dome.

[JHikka]

It's a common issue in all major urban centres and speaks more to the culture of hockey shifting away from a working-class sport to one for the upper middle-class. Arenas aren't in urban areas because people in urban areas don't play hockey, just as why hockey arenas are in suburban areas because that's where the hockey players are. You can probably argue chicken-and-egg on this issue, but on the whole hockey is simply too expensive and requires too much space in an apartment for equipment to be feasible for many living in dense areas, let alone having the lug the equipment around in the winter. Hockey arenas need parking lots because of this, and etc. etc.

I think UO's future plans for Sandy Hill are fine (widening their breadth of athletic facilities rather than duplicating what's already across the street), but it's no secret that hockey is being removed and retreating from urban Canadian centres. I recall there being a big push during Canada's centennial for hockey arenas to be built and now most of them are coming due, if not already having been removed entirely.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's a common issue in all major urban centres and speaks more to the culture of hockey shifting away from a working-class sport to one for the upper middle-class. Arenas aren't in urban areas because people in urban areas don't play hockey, just as why hockey arenas are in suburban areas because that's where the hockey players are. You can probably argue chicken-and-egg on this issue, but on the whole hockey is simply too expensive and requires too much space in an apartment for equipment to be feasible for many living in dense areas, let alone having the lug the equipment around in the winter. Hockey arenas need parking lots because of this, and etc. etc.

I think UO's future plans for Sandy Hill are fine (widening their breadth of athletic facilities rather than duplicating what's already across the street), but it's no secret that hockey is being removed and retreating from urban Canadian centres. I recall there being a big push during Canada's centennial for hockey arenas to be built and now most of them are coming due, if not already having been removed entirely.

Well, my first comment is that arenas are not just for hockey. A big chunk of available ice time at McNabb is dedicated to skating lessons and public skating.

Also, I know that idea that hockey is on the downswing in those areas is thrown around a lot, but that really hasn't been borne out in central Ottawa in my experience. COVID has caused a bit of a dip in numbers in minor hockey, but prior to the pandemic, numbers of kids participating have been very steady. And at the same time, girls and women's hockey numbers have been increasing consistently. This plan isn't a result of declining demand - the plan replaces arenas, but moves them to outlying areas.

Based on lots of experience, I can guarantee you that it is very possible to live in Centretown or the Glebe or Sandy Hill and play hockey (or at least it was until the city closed all of these arenas).

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by phil235

Well, my first comment is that arenas are not just for hockey. A big chunk of available ice time at McNabb is dedicated to skating lessons and public skating.

Of course, but as you and I both know arenas need to have some sort of revenue generating ability in order to be viable, especially in dense areas. Public skating and skating lessons aren't revenue-generator hours hockey games and teams are.

Something that we really don't do in Canada that we probably should is to have public skating in malls like many places in Southeast Asia do. Obviously health & safety would have a fit, but putting public skating back into the public eye in very open and high-traffic areas would be relatively easy to do IMO, especially considering the fragile nature of mall tenancy these days.

Originally Posted by phil235

Also, I know that idea that hockey is on the downswing in those areas is thrown around a lot, but that really hasn't been borne out in central Ottawa in my experience. COVID has caused a bit of a dip in numbers in minor hockey, but prior to the pandemic, numbers of kids participating have been very steady. And at the same time, girls and women's hockey numbers have been increasing consistently. This plan isn't a result of declining demand - the plan replaces arenas, but moves them to outlying areas.

Unless you have statistics specific to Ottawa, and unless Ottawa's statistics are counter to that of Canada, I have difficulty in imagining that hockey registration numbers are going anywhere but downwards; even with the increase in girl's hockey.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Of course, but as you and I both know arenas need to have some sort of revenue generating ability in order to be viable, especially in dense areas. Public skating and skating lessons aren't revenue-generator hours hockey games and teams are.

Something that we really don't do in Canada that we probably should is to have public skating in malls like many places in Southeast Asia do. Obviously health & safety would have a fit, but putting public skating back into the public eye in very open and high-traffic areas would be relatively easy to do IMO, especially considering the fragile nature of mall tenancy these days.


Unless you have statistics specific to Ottawa, and unless Ottawa's statistics are counter to that of Canada, I have difficulty in imagining that hockey registration numbers are going anywhere but downwards; even with the increase in girl's hockey.

As a matter of fact, I do have some figures. Contrary to popular belief, registrations in Canada have not been going downwards (at least in total numbers). Page 20 of the Hockey Canada annual report shows numbers for the past decade. Numbers have been relatively stable for the past 5 years, and are up roughly 7% over the decade:

https://cdn.agilitycms.com/hockey-ca...l-report-e.pdf

I'm also a director with the OCMHA, the minor hockey association for central Ottawa, so I know the registration figures for the area very well. We dropped about 10% last year (when we were on the ice for about 10 weeks total and there were no games at all), but otherwise our numbers have been very stable for a decade, notwithstanding the growth in girls hockey which siphons off a good number of our players.

As for revenue generation, I'm not sure it's fair to say that hockey is more of a revenue generator for arenas than skating lessons or other activities. For instance, a session of skating lessons with 50 people on the ice (as was often the case at McNabb) would almost certainly bring more revenue than a minor hockey game with 20 or 30 kids playing.

As I mentioned, this is not a question of lack of demand for central arenas. It's a deliberate move by the city to consolidate arenas outside the core.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The City is hyper-focused on serving newer, low-density suburbs while cramming more people in central areas. Another example of the City's disregard for the urban core is that the small green patch at Tom Brown will now be used for TNext parking for a while, after Mechanicsville already lost Laroche and Lemieux Island.

No arena or community centre should close or be demolished before a replacement has been built. Basic urban planning.

Reality.....The recreation complexes for which you speak of in those suburbs are paid for in majority by those suburbs through Community benefit charges applied to development along with other fees. The Urban wards get these charges as well but spend them on other things:

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...-sec-37-regime

As for the Tnext, its probably a minor staging area for the line construction and the other parks are a temporary loss due to other construction projects for infrastructure.

Also: https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...box=1632774025

It looks as if converting rinks to gymnasiums may be the path forward for the Urban core....