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  #16361  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2022, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
I am not suggesting putting back what was there. However, the fact that much of the transit that is being put in that is either a BRT or LRT in many of our smaller cities seems to follow old streetcar lines that have been ripped up over 60 years ago says a lot. Everyone likes to compare Canada's transit to Europe, but they fail to compare the political and systemic reasons that they have happened. Why is a line being completed this year when 20-30 years ago, part of it was filled in? What would it look like if construction had continued? A lot of people here either don't know history, or don't want to learn from history, or both. Let's learn from history, and ensure the bad doesn't happen going forward.
Cities often build using the cheapest possible corridor (with some exceptions like Vancouver, building where rapid transit is needed, or suburban Toronto, with the benefit of a blank cheque). This means using former rail corridors or streetcar routes, such as the Byron strip in Ottawa. That said, Ottawa is building a tunnel under the Byron strip for speed and frequency that the streetcar could never have provided.

Byron is a good corridor, serving dense housing, but Hurdman to Blair for example, a cheap and easy corridor for BRT and now rail, is terrible, serving few people along the way. Rideau-Montreal would have been a far more logical choice to serve thousands more people, often of lower-income.

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Many decisions have been made in the name of economy and for other reasons that have made these future choices impossible. Basically the design choices (and it was discussed at the time) for the Confederation Line make sure that trains cannot be connected at either Hurdman Station (to the Southeast Transitway) or Bayview Station (to the Trillium Line).
Very true. Bayview was designed to make in impossible to interline, and very difficult to extend to Gatineau. Hurdman is a disaster for so many reasons. The offset loop, the tight curves that will be a maintenance issue in perpetuity. I do believe the NCC had a lot to do with that one by limiting the space the City could use, even though the area's an empty field. If they do decide to convert the SE Transitway to rail (and honestly, I could see them doing it because it's easy, even if not necessary), it could be an opportunity to rebuild Hurdman and its curves, if space is still available by then.
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  #16362  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2022, 8:38 PM
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Frankly, I look at that massive flyover to replace the Ellwood diamond as another lost opportunity. In the name of short-term economy, we are building yet another structure (a massive one) on the Trillium Line designed for only single track operations.

We are designing the Trillium Line in hope of failure (or no more than modest success) because if it is a big success, we will create another problem with the Bayview transfer.

I know the history of Ottawa's rail plans and we can thank Larry O'Brien for moving us to a downtown subway, but his inexperience has also left a very negative legacy for the Trillium Line and everybody who lives in the south quadrant of the city.
Very true. I blame Chiarelli for his plans that did not take into account downtown capacity. O'Brien's plans did include an eventual full upgrade of Trillium and direct to downtown service, but it's Watson that gave us the Chevrolet Chevette of transit lines.
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  #16363  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2022, 8:59 PM
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Very true. I blame Chiarelli for his plans that did not take into account downtown capacity. O'Brien's plans did include an eventual full upgrade of Trillium and direct to downtown service, but it's Watson that gave us the Chevrolet Chevette of transit lines.
True in every respect. I think we can extend blame to the entire City Council which approved the 2003 Transportation Master Plan which failed to address the downtown issue after a couple of decades of sticking our heads in the sand about a downtown tunnel. Beyond the lack of a tunnel, the 2003 plan was much more progressive in delivering a badly needed transit grid for Ottawa that subsequent plans have forgotten. The newer plans are all radial, which does not the reflect a city that has become increasingly suburbanized for both residents and businesses.

I think this all goes back to Mike Harris who pulled the rug from capital transit funding in the 1990s, most infamously known for filling in the start of the Eglinton subway tunnel in Toronto.
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  #16364  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2022, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Frankly, I look at that massive flyover to replace the Ellwood diamond as another lost opportunity. In the name of short-term economy, we are building yet another structure (a massive one) on the Trillium Line designed for only single track operations.

We are designing the Trillium Line in hope of failure (or no more than modest success) because if it is a big success, we will create another problem with the Bayview transfer.

I know the history of Ottawa's rail plans and we can thank Larry O'Brien for moving us to a downtown subway, but his inexperience has also left a very negative legacy for the Trillium Line and everybody who lives in the south quadrant of the city.
What about building it such that a new routing is done instead of interlining a potentially busy route?

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Cities often build using the cheapest possible corridor (with some exceptions like Vancouver, building where rapid transit is needed, or suburban Toronto, with the benefit of a blank cheque). This means using former rail corridors or streetcar routes, such as the Byron strip in Ottawa. That said, Ottawa is building a tunnel under the Byron strip for speed and frequency that the streetcar could never have provided.

Byron is a good corridor, serving dense housing, but Hurdman to Blair for example, a cheap and easy corridor for BRT and now rail, is terrible, serving few people along the way. Rideau-Montreal would have been a far more logical choice to serve thousands more people, often of lower-income.
It has always been done on the cheap to serve the most voters. Point is that they seem to be following old lines because there has always been the demand, even after they wasted money on ripping up what they are now putting back.

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Very true. Bayview was designed to make in impossible to interline, and very difficult to extend to Gatineau. Hurdman is a disaster for so many reasons. The offset loop, the tight curves that will be a maintenance issue in perpetuity. I do believe the NCC had a lot to do with that one by limiting the space the City could use, even though the area's an empty field. If they do decide to convert the SE Transitway to rail (and honestly, I could see them doing it because it's easy, even if not necessary), it could be an opportunity to rebuild Hurdman and its curves, if space is still available by then.
Interlining is great before the line become too busy. The Green Line in Boston is a great example of both the good and bad of interlining. Maybe the goal is to force future politicians to agree on new lines that go to other areas instead of following the current line. That actually would be a good thing.
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  #16365  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2022, 1:49 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
What about building it such that a new routing is done instead of interlining a potentially busy route?



It has always been done on the cheap to serve the most voters. Point is that they seem to be following old lines because there has always been the demand, even after they wasted money on ripping up what they are now putting back.



Interlining is great before the line become too busy. The Green Line in Boston is a great example of both the good and bad of interlining. Maybe the goal is to force future politicians to agree on new lines that go to other areas instead of following the current line. That actually would be a good thing.
Sh! We might talk about (mumble, mumble) a Bank Street subway, that we are strictly forbidden from speaking of in Ottawa.
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  #16366  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2022, 4:19 AM
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Sh! We might talk about (mumble, mumble) a Bank Street subway, that we are strictly forbidden from speaking of in Ottawa.
.... Fine, I'll be quiet. ....

But, what about an LRT route under another busy downtown street? Would there be another street that might be good to use?
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  #16367  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 12:07 AM
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I’m still annoyed about how the most important low hanging transit link in Ottawa-Gatineau isn’t likely to get used any time soon. (The bridge north of Line 2.)
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  #16368  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 12:19 AM
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I’m still annoyed about how the most important low hanging transit link in Ottawa-Gatineau isn’t likely to get used any time soon. (The bridge north of Line 2.)
The condition of that bridge is probably too poor. Access has been blocked off even to pedestrians and cyclists too.
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  #16369  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 3:02 AM
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I’m still annoyed about how the most important low hanging transit link in Ottawa-Gatineau isn’t likely to get used any time soon. (The bridge north of Line 2.)
I'm assuming that after the Gatineau LRT is open, construction on an Ottawa connection will start.
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  #16370  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 8:55 PM
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The condition of that bridge is probably too poor. Access has been blocked off even to pedestrians and cyclists too.
This is about to change. The bridge will soon be converted to a multi-use pathway. Closing off the bridge was becoming too much a liability because it became a place for dare devil fools to jump (and die).
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  #16371  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 8:56 PM
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I'm assuming that after the Gatineau LRT is open, construction on an Ottawa connection will start.
Gatineau LRT will come part and parcel with a downtown Ottawa connection. The two will be built at the same time. What I want to see is the capability to connect it an Ottawa LRT route in future. In other words, any downtown routing will be used by both STO and OC Transpo.
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  #16372  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 10:04 PM
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  #16373  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2022, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Gatineau LRT will come part and parcel with a downtown Ottawa connection. The two will be built at the same time. What I want to see is the capability to connect it an Ottawa LRT route in future. In other words, any downtown routing will be used by both STO and OC Transpo.
What kind of connection do you mean? I, for one, do not want the same tracks used by the 2 operators. Definitely, there needs to be a station to transfer. The STO line could perceiveably extend further into Ottawa.
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  #16374  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2022, 4:48 AM
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What kind of connection do you mean? I, for one, do not want the same tracks used by the 2 operators. Definitely, there needs to be a station to transfer. The STO line could perceiveably extend further into Ottawa.
There is serious talk of an interprovincial downtown rail loop. It would be crazy to build such expensive infrastructure and not share the loop between both systems. Obviously, there would need to be some shared arrangement to operate the loop safely. But we also know that there will special federal funding because the loop would be interprovincial, so why would Ottawa residents not also benefit from it by having direct service to the thousands of jobs on the Quebec side. We can't be building rail to end up with countless unnecessary transfers within the downtown area.
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  #16375  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2022, 2:48 PM
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There is serious talk of an interprovincial downtown rail loop. It would be crazy to build such expensive infrastructure and not share the loop between both systems. Obviously, there would need to be some shared arrangement to operate the loop safely. But we also know that there will special federal funding because the loop would be interprovincial, so why would Ottawa residents not also benefit from it by having direct service to the thousands of jobs on the Quebec side. We can't be building rail to end up with countless unnecessary transfers within the downtown area.
This loop wouldn't be interlined with the existing or any other new line, correct?
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  #16376  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2022, 4:00 PM
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This loop wouldn't be interlined with the existing or any other new line, correct?
It certainly would not be interlined with the existing line and we are not looking far enough down the road for any new line downtown beyond the Confederation Line to serve the Ottawa side. This is understandable given the tremendous cost of the full build out of the C-Line. Even the downtown loop is not beyond the 'think about' stage, but the Confederation Line has its limitations as far as serving urban Ottawa. It does not serve south or east parts of urban Ottawa well. So, it is my hope that when the downtown loop gets to the planning stage that at least a preliminary plan is established to allow it to link to a new route to underserved parts of Ottawa. It makes no sense to build additional lines into downtown when a downtown loop may have sufficient capacity for a new Ottawa route to be interlined.
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  #16377  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2022, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
There is serious talk of an interprovincial downtown rail loop. It would be crazy to build such expensive infrastructure and not share the loop between both systems. Obviously, there would need to be some shared arrangement to operate the loop safely. But we also know that there will special federal funding because the loop would be interprovincial, so why would Ottawa residents not also benefit from it by having direct service to the thousands of jobs on the Quebec side. We can't be building rail to end up with countless unnecessary transfers within the downtown area.
OC Transpo users will be allowed to transfer to the STO loop (or whatever will end up being built) for no extra charge. It will benefit residents from both cities.

If anything, I think it's better to keep it STO only for capacity and simpler operations (no need to coordinate with OC, no questions about who maintains).
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  #16378  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2022, 4:10 PM
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OC Transpo users will be allowed to transfer to the STO loop (or whatever will end up being built) for no extra charge. It will benefit residents from both cities.

If anything, I think it's better to keep it STO only for capacity and simpler operations (no need to coordinate with OC, no questions about who maintains).
I guess I dream in technicolor. Forever, there has been a need for a more effective interprovincial transit network. Where best to start, is a rail line, the backbone of the network. The current system requiring everybody to transfer downtown limits ridership. And Quebec residents will be the only ones to access both downtowns directly.

So, when the time comes and we finally decide to build a rail line on the Rideau-Montreal Road corridor, you will be happy to build yet another line across downtown rather than connect it a loop that connects both downtowns? Or, the more likely result, of additional forced transfers to even cross downtown Ottawa.
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  #16379  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2022, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I guess I dream in technicolor. Forever, there has been a need for a more effective interprovincial transit network. Where best to start, is a rail line, the backbone of the network. The current system requiring everybody to transfer downtown limits ridership. And Quebec residents will be the only ones to access both downtowns directly.

So, when the time comes and we finally decide to build a rail line on the Rideau-Montreal Road corridor, you will be happy to build yet another line across downtown rather than connect it a loop that connects both downtowns? Or, the more likely result, of additional forced transfers to even cross downtown Ottawa.
Hoping Ottawa extends Line 2 across the William Commanda Bridge and up to Zibi one day so that both transit agencies have a footing in the other city. That could also help capacity at Bayview by decreasing transfers (anyone from Trillium heading to Gatineau would stay on instead of transferring to Confed. and then the loop, and people from Gat working or going to school along Trilllium would transfer at UQO instead of downtown and again at Bayview).

That said, as long as both cities operate their own transit, full integration will never be possible. We would need the Feds to upload transit in the NCR.
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  #16380  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2022, 5:55 PM
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It certainly would not be interlined with the existing line and we are not looking far enough down the road for any new line downtown beyond the Confederation Line to serve the Ottawa side. This is understandable given the tremendous cost of the full build out of the C-Line. Even the downtown loop is not beyond the 'think about' stage, but the Confederation Line has its limitations as far as serving urban Ottawa. It does not serve south or east parts of urban Ottawa well. So, it is my hope that when the downtown loop gets to the planning stage that at least a preliminary plan is established to allow it to link to a new route to underserved parts of Ottawa. It makes no sense to build additional lines into downtown when a downtown loop may have sufficient capacity for a new Ottawa route to be interlined.
The problem with interlining is that the capacity can only go so far. If we really want people to use it, it needs to be fast and efficient. Having more lines, even if a block away can really make transit better. If anyone has ever ridden the RT in Boston through downtown, it is a great system. You are never far from a station and you can easily transfer to the one you need without much of a wait. Any new routes from Gatineau should be on their own lines through Ottawa.

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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
OC Transpo users will be allowed to transfer to the STO loop (or whatever will end up being built) for no extra charge. It will benefit residents from both cities.

If anything, I think it's better to keep it STO only for capacity and simpler operations (no need to coordinate with OC, no questions about who maintains).
The area is getting to the point where having one transit authority for both cities is becoming a need.

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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
I guess I dream in technicolor. Forever, there has been a need for a more effective interprovincial transit network. Where best to start, is a rail line, the backbone of the network. The current system requiring everybody to transfer downtown limits ridership. And Quebec residents will be the only ones to access both downtowns directly.

So, when the time comes and we finally decide to build a rail line on the Rideau-Montreal Road corridor, you will be happy to build yet another line across downtown rather than connect it a loop that connects both downtowns? Or, the more likely result, of additional forced transfers to even cross downtown Ottawa.
Downtown Ottawa can likely support at least 1 more N/S and E/W route, if not more. Maybe as they get built, the existing interlining gets undone.

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Hoping Ottawa extends Line 2 across the William Commanda Bridge and up to Zibi one day so that both transit agencies have a footing in the other city. That could also help capacity at Bayview by decreasing transfers (anyone from Trillium heading to Gatineau would stay on instead of transferring to Confed. and then the loop, and people from Gat working or going to school along Trilllium would transfer at UQO instead of downtown and again at Bayview).

That said, as long as both cities operate their own transit, full integration will never be possible. We would need the Feds to upload transit in the NCR.
That should be the next priority for when the Gatineau LRT opens. Hopefully there are plans to keep it as a walkway/bikeway and have 2 tracks as well.
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