NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[NYCityBoy]

The rules of urban planning says this area should be the one of the most dense in the city. Multiple types of mass transit = higher density.

NIMBY's can f-off.

[TonyNYC]

[QUOTE=NYguy;9451638]When (if) the theater is removed, and with all the upcoming construction of and around Penn Station, they should do a full rebuild.


MSG had a full gut renovation 7-8 years ago to the cost of $1 Billion. The arena is "new" inside.

They'll obviously be some renovation on the 8th Avenue side once the Theatre comes down, but a full rebuild again, doubt it.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

They'll obviously be some renovation on the 8th Avenue side once the Theatre comes down, but a full rebuild again, doubt it.

The exterior of the arena wasn't rebuilt, just the interior, so even if MSG stays, I think it's long overdue for an exterior gut.

But the whole arena should go.

[mrnyc]

also, come on, that one bil msg reno number is the dolan boast numbers, not reality.

although yeah, they did do a lot inside.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

MSG had a full gut renovation 7-8 years ago to the cost of $1 Billion. The arena is "new" inside.

They'll obviously be some renovation on the 8th Avenue side once the Theatre comes down, but a full rebuild again, doubt it.

I know there was the renovation, but they only did what they could within the confines of the existing building. Basically the same as renovating an old house compared to building a new one from scratch. Most people will tell you that the current building is an eyesore. And it is. It’s not a building worthy of the “world’s most famous arena”, I don’t care what kind of cosmetic surgery the perform on the inside. BTW, people used that same argument for saving 270 Park.

MSG isn’t moving anywhere. Unless they plan on sticking with the arena as is forever (most owners wouldn’t), the time to take advantage is now. They could even get some assistance now that there is serious intent (and funding) to rebuild Penn Station. This would be integral to that. If they had the will.

Originally Posted by NYCityBoy

The rules of urban planning says this area should be the one of the most dense in the city. Multiple types of mass transit = higher density.

NIMBY's can f-off.

As they should.

[NYguy]

• Video Link

[NYguy]

https://nypost.com/2021/11/18/kathy-...ecy-watchdogs/

Gov. Hochul’s Penn Station revamp being planned in secrecy, watchdogs say

By David Meyer
November 18, 2021

Gov. Kathy Hochul is planning the state’s multi-billion dollar revamp of Penn Station in secrecy, according to a group of government watchdogs.

Hochul on Nov. 3 announced plans to move forward with the renovation using tax funding from 10 new commercial skyscrapers — but the state has kept a tight lid on the math behind that funding scheme, the leaders of Reinvent Albany, Common Cause, BetaNYC and NYPIRG charged in a letter to Hochul dated Nov. 10.

The groups accused the state of sharing a taxpayer-funded analysis of the financing with the proposed developer, Vornado — but not with the public. Hochul’s administration has similarly neglected to publish online the agendas and materials of the project’s community advisory committee, the letter said.

“It is completely contrary to the intent of the Freedom of Information Law that a company negotiating with the state on a massive deal, and the state government itself have a partially tax-payer funded report that is being kept secret from the public,” the watchdogs wrote. “This is not consistent with a government agency in a democratic society or the law of the State of New York which states ‘government is the public’s business.'”

Hochul inherited the project from her predecessor Andrew Cuomo. Despite reducing the size of the towers by 7 percent compared to Cuomo’s plan, she still intends to push the project through a “General Project Plan,” which allows the state to tear down privately own buildings without going through the city’s usual zoning process.

Consultants at Ernst & Young have a $600,000 contract with the state’s Empire State Development for “financial advisory services,” according to records obtained by The Post. Vornado agreed to pay half of the cost of the study, the records show.

Yet the community advisory committee remains in the dark about how the state will pay for the $7 billion project, according to Layla Law-Gisiko, who serves on the committee in her capacity as land-use chair of Manhattan Community Board 5. She expressed doubt that taxes on the new towers could actually fund the entire station rehabilitation.

“We asked for the interim reports from their consultant. This request was not granted, which is especially frustrating because Vornado has this information and we don’t,” she told The Post. “We feel the public deserves to see this data.”

“To us it’s really the part that pisses us [off] the most,” Law-Gisiko added. “They’re making a major decision based on this data, and the public doesn’t have this data — [so] they cannot challenge it.”

The advisory committee includes other community board leaders, elected officials, transit advocates, labor leaders and local business organizations..

A rep for Hochul said in a statement that the governor “is committed to ensuring transparency and accountability throughout this process, and we will work with ESD to make more information related to the project available to the public.”

Empire State Development rejected the claim that any Ernst & Young documents were being withheld from the public.

“The Community Advisory Council was provided with E&Y analysis at a meeting on May 25,” said ESD spokesman Matt Gorton. “In fact, no information has ever been provided to any stakeholder, including Vornado, that hasn’t been shared with the Community Advisory Council.”

[mrnyc]

^ again, oh come on.

it's too early in the game for that.

[Busy Bee]

Can we have a no NY Post article policy? One can easily assume most of what they gin up is partisen motivated bullshit. If the governor was a Republican they would write about how fantastic the planning was going or write nothing at all. Worthless rag and worse than its ever been. Thanks Rupert.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ again, oh come on.

it's too early in the game for that.

It was inevitable that the whining would commence.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Can we have a no NY Post article policy? One can easily assume most of what they gin up is partisen motivated bullshit. If the governor was a Republican they would write about how fantastic the planning was going or write nothing at all. Worthless rag and worse than its ever been. Thanks Rupert.

Again, we don't do politics here. If you don't agree with the article, you don't have to agree. You don't have to read it either.

[NYguy]

So, two of the big issues that always come up with the expansion/rebuilding of Penn Station are the removal of MSG, and the through running of trains through the station.

Both issues have been discussed (and shot down) in the past, and here we can see how those plans fit in with the new rebuilding of the station.

First, we have the issue of Madison Square Garden, and a question an answer session from one of the meetings earlier this year to give us some insight...




1.






2.



3.



4.



5.



6.




7.




8.



9.



10.




11.



12.




13.



14.



15.

[DCReid]

In the 12 comment, there is criticism of lack of public spaces in Hudson Yards, which is interesting. However, I am not sure the criticism is valid as only phase 1 is complete and it appears that phase 2 will have much more public space, along with the plans for the adjacent parcels. I wonder now how much added scrutiny phase 2 will get from the various land use and government committees.

[Busy Bee]

My takeaway from the above is that many CB's and other stakeholders really desire a grand above ground Penn, but they're told since MSG and 2PP are privately owned they're shit out of luck. MSG will cost a lot of dough to buy out and move and we don't don't have that dough right now so we're not going to pursue this once in lifetime opportunity to give New York City a new civic monument in a grand new Penn. Everyone knows "nothing precludes future MSG relocation" means never. What the railroads want will be good enough.Through running is kinda sorta possible, but its complicated and maybe its a priority maybe not? Gale Brewer says tall buildings are scary and unnatural across the street from the nations busiest train station. Something about Hudson Yards not being ped friendly...huh?

I get the nervous feeling they are going to steam through this and temper their ambitions and we're going to have to wait another generation or two to get the Penn we deserve. I was pleasently surprised though how many CB members really eagerly want to tell MSG to get the fuck out...

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by DCReid

In the 12 comment, there is criticism of lack of public spaces in Hudson Yards, which is interesting. However, I am not sure the criticism is valid as only phase 1 is complete and it appears that phase 2 will have much more public space, along with the plans for the adjacent parcels. I wonder now how much added scrutiny phase 2 will get from the various land use and government committees.

I think what they aren't realizing is the fact that what a lot of people feel about Hudson Yards being "unlike" New York is the fact that there may be too much open space. People say they want a lot of open space, but not really. People want the city to look and feel like the rest of the city, which for Manhattan means canyonized streets, with some open plazas. The way the Hudson Yards was zoned was that the FAR was pushed to particular sites (creating larger buildings) to give more open space. I'm for open space, and public plazas, but I'm also for needed density, especially around transit centers. They say they want to make it feel more like New York, with it's established street grid, and they should stick to that. Too much open space ruins it.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

My takeaway from the above is that many CB's and other stakeholders really desire a grand above ground Penn, but they're told since MSG and 2PP are privately owned they're shit out of luck.

That's not really it. The point they are stressing is that removing MSG does nothing to improve the capacity and circulation of Penn itself (MSG is basically a roof). More importantly though, there are no viable and realistic alternatives to moving MSG. The City knows it. There was a window to get MSG moved into the Farley Building, where it still would have been connected to multiple modes of transit, and didn't require eminent domain of any kind. That was the last realistic choice. As I've said before, the best option now is to rebuild MSG at the same time Penn is "rebuilt". You can integrate the two into a cohesive and pleasing design, but the window for that too is closing.

[mrnyc]

very interesting and these were all valid arguements up in the discussion.

regarding msg the timing problem is the crux imo. and the reminder that its sadly true msg doesnt really affect penn station expansion and redevelopment other than aesthetically.

[streetscaper]

I’ve been thinking how they could reclad MSG to make it look good, stylish, approachable, or maybe even beautiful… but I’m coming up dry!

If MSG is gonna be surrounded by a plaza network and pretty new buildings and activated public space, can’t have the current eyesore be the centerpiece.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

very interesting and these were all valid arguements up in the discussion.

regarding msg the timing problem is the crux imo. and the reminder that its sadly true msg doesnt really affect penn station expansion and redevelopment other than aesthetically.

Which is why I say, with Penn Station and surrounding area becoming a construction zone for more than a decade, we should be getting a Madison Square Garden #5 out of it.



https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...o64-story.html

Madison Square Garden would cost $8B to relocate, NY officials said during confidential meeting





By CLAYTON GUSE
NOV 19, 2021

Madison Square Garden is too expensive to move — and New York officials earlier this year weren’t keen on collecting property taxes from the venue’s owners, the state’s economic development agency says.

Empire State Development Corporation officials spent months earlier this year advocating for former Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s proposed overhaul of Penn Station that since the 1960s has been buried by the famed sports venue.

But forcing the relocation of Madison Square Garden — which controls owns a lease on the air rights above the train hub — was out of the question, according to details of a June 1 meeting hosted by ESD that were published Thursday by the good government group Reinvent Albany.

The meeting was confidential. It was attended by a slew of community board members, trade group leaders, surrogates for elected officials — and Manhattan Borough President Gale Brewer herself.

.....Madison Square Garden and its CEO James Dolan — who also owns the Knicks and Rangers — already enjoy a lucrative tax break brokered in 1982 by then-mayor Ed Koch when the venue’s former owners threatened a move to New Jersey.

The tax exemption has so far cost the state $550 million and its total cost could exceed $1 billion by 2030, according to the city’s Independent Budget Office.

Officials who stumped for Cuomo’s plan during the June meeting said forcing Madison Square Garden to pay property taxes wouldn’t do much to pay for the Penn Station project, the minutes show.

[NYguy]

The issue of through-running was discussed at an earlier meeting. It seems there will be some through-running in the future, but not enough to offset growth.



1.



2.



3.



4.



5.



6.



7.



8.



9.



10.



11.



12.



13.



14.



15.



16.



17.



18.



19.



20.



21.



22.



23.



24.



25.



26.



27.



28.



29.



30.



31.



32.



33.



34.



35.



36.



37.



38.



39.






And to add to the discussion, the dire need for the Gateway tunnel....



• Video Link

[NYguy]

• Video Link

[NYguy]

Second meeting this week...(live version)


• Video Link