Soaring rents in Toronto

[Dariusb]

I thought this was an interesting video about rising rents and being priced out in Toronto. What are your thoughts? https://youtu.be/wxyDP_dS3EU

[softee]

In the three years since that story was shot, the rents have increased by quite a bit. That 450 sq. ft. condo shown at the beginning might rent for $2,500 a month now.

[Dariusb]

Wow! Certainly hasn't slowed the city down. Are rising rents becoming a concern in Toronto or not so much?

[edale]

Originally Posted by Dariusb

Wow! Certainly hasn't slowed the city down. Are rising rents becoming a concern in Toronto or not so much?

Also curious to know if homelessness is becoming more of an issue as housing affordability continues to become more of an issue. A lot of homeless advocates like to link high housing prices to the homelessness crisis we're experiencing in LA. I'm sure the 'safety net' is probably bigger and better in Canada, so it's not entirely an apples to apples comparison, but I'm just a little skeptical of people who claim that high cost of housing directly translates to more people living on the street. I mean, it seems like there are several steps between being priced out of an apartment through a big rent increase, and sleeping on a tent and shitting on the sidewalk.

[samne]

Originally Posted by edale

Also curious to know if homelessness is becoming more of an issue as housing affordability continues to become more of an issue. A lot of homeless advocates like to link high housing prices to the homelessness crisis we're experiencing in LA. I'm sure the 'safety net' is probably bigger and better in Canada, so it's not entirely an apples to apples comparison, but I'm just a little skeptical of people who claim that high cost of housing directly translates to more people living on the street. I mean, it seems like there are several steps between being priced out of an apartment through a big rent increase, and sleeping on a tent and shitting on the sidewalk.

Yes homelessness is an increasing issue.

Speaking anecdotally, Ive never experienced so much panhandling in the city as now. It appears someone is approaching cars at almost every high traffic intersection. Its not just your typical homeless looking guy....a lot of just average looking men and women, like its their side hustle.

[CherryCreek]

Looking around rentals.ca, the rent prices don't seem that crazy, as least compared to my city Denver.

My friends rent a very smallish (800 SF) two bedroom in newer building very close to downtown Denver and pay $2500 USD a month. That's about $3200 CAD. Looking at Rentals.ca and looking for 2 bedroom for a maximum of $3200 CAD, i see tons of great choices.

https://rentals.ca/toronto?rentrange...ting-id=280974

Maybe that just means Denver is as expensive as Toronto, LoL.

[softee]

^ People in Toronto don't pay their rent in American dollars, though. $3,200 CAD will still get you get you a pretty nice place in Toronto. $2,500 CAD will get you a small (5-600 sq. ft.) one bedroom if you want to live in a new building downtown.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by CherryCreek

Looking around rentals.ca, the rent prices don't seem that crazy, as least compared to my city Denver.

My friends rent a very smallish (800 SF) two bedroom in newer building very close to downtown Denver and pay $2500 USD a month. That's about $3200 CAD. Looking at Rentals.ca and looking for 2 bedroom for a maximum of $3200 CAD, i see tons of great choices.

https://rentals.ca/toronto?rentrange...ting-id=280974

Maybe that just means Denver is as expensive as Toronto, LoL.

As mentioned recently in another thread about cost of living in Toronto, the exchange rate is irrelevant. Canadians don't get paid in USD.

The average price of a 2-bedroom apartment on the market today is CAD$2,850. That's cheap compared to the US from the perspective of someone from a third country, but then the average household income in Toronto is CAD$78,300, which is also low compared to the US.

Edit: what he said

[Innsertnamehere]

It’s well documented that Toronto’s homeless shelters have been rammed these last few years. The city has had to set up a lot of emergency shelters with those giant inflated tents because of it.. unfortunately our climate means people “need” shelter more than they do in LA too in the winter time, so shelters get much more demand.

[yaletown_fella]

I consider living in a rooming house and sharing a bathroom with strangers to be a form of homelessness. Having done this in the past, it's a very depressing and mentally damaging way to live.

Everyone should be able to pay for a micro self-contained unit.

The high rents are mainly due to cheap money and artificially low interest rates. And if we are intellectually honest, it's also due to the Places to Grow Act restricting supply, inflating land values (therefore driving up rent prices) and increasing competition among renters. But too many people insist on defending the Greenbelt like it's a religion, even the reasonable proposal of developing the brownfield former industrial or mega-farm wastelands with no natural beauty.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by samne

Yes homelessness is an increasing issue.

Speaking anecdotally, Ive never experienced so much panhandling in the city as now. It appears someone is approaching cars at almost every high traffic intersection. Its not just your typical homeless looking guy....a lot of just average looking men and women, like its their side hustle.

I wonder if panhandling is becoming bigger now in the last 3-5 years in general. I've seen an increase in panhandling all around suburban Wilmington. There seems to be a beggar at the entrance to every significant shopping plaza or at strategic intersections. One intersection near where I work has 3 or 4 separate beggars who rotate in shifts, it seems. They have fairly standard hours, and/or territories that they work at consistent times of the day. (I rarely give them money, because they all smoke, and I'm not going to facilitate irresponsible decisions and pay for someone's cigarettes and then they don't have, or claim to not have, a place to live or sleep at. Most of these people are able-bodied men within 10 years of my age, and the gas station that they sometimes work for money is desperate for workers.)

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by edale

Also curious to know if homelessness is becoming more of an issue as housing affordability continues to become more of an issue. A lot of homeless advocates like to link high housing prices to the homelessness crisis we're experiencing in LA. I'm sure the 'safety net' is probably bigger and better in Canada, so it's not entirely an apples to apples comparison, but I'm just a little skeptical of people who claim that high cost of housing directly translates to more people living on the street. I mean, it seems like there are several steps between being priced out of an apartment through a big rent increase, and sleeping on a tent and shitting on the sidewalk.

Canada dosent have a real safety net like a UBI.

The one semblance of a safety net that's absent in US is a public health care option system. But other than this the government does absolutely zero to protect working people without egregious means-testing.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

It’s well documented that Toronto’s homeless shelters have been rammed these last few years. The city has had to set up a lot of emergency shelters with those giant inflated tents because of it.. unfortunately our climate means people “need” shelter more than they do in LA too in the winter time, so shelters get much more demand.

Shelters just perpetuate the problem of economic homelessness. People obsess over mental health but conveniently ignore the fact that 40% of homeless have part time jobs.

More resources need to go to permanent housing subsidies or UBI.

[yaletown_fella]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

I wonder if panhandling is becoming bigger now in the last 3-5 years in general. I've seen an increase in panhandling all around suburban Wilmington. There seems to be a beggar at the entrance to every significant shopping plaza or at strategic intersections. One intersection near where I work has 3 or 4 separate beggars who rotate in shifts, it seems. They have fairly standard hours, and/or territories that they work at consistent times of the day. (I rarely give them money, because they all smoke, and I'm not going to facilitate irresponsible decisions and pay for someone's cigarettes and then they don't have, or claim to not have, a place to live or sleep at. Most of these people are able-bodied men within 10 years of my age, and the gas station that they sometimes work for money is desperate for workers.)

Most of these transient types are too physically intimidating to deal with the public/customers etc. Women are more preferred for any position dealing with people. Strange men are seen as a liability.

[iheartthed]

If that place was in NYC it would've rented for at minimum 2.5x $1700CAD in 2017. And had a waiting list and 15% of annual rent broker's fee.

[suburbanite]

New York also has higher average incomes. Prices in isolation don't mean anything. Fact is, more people are being priced out of Toronto as wages haven't come anywhere close to keeping pace with a soaring cost of living. Covid has brought prices down, but also probably disproportionately increased unemployment.

[chris08876]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If that place was in NYC it would've rented for at minimum 2.5x $1700CAD in 2017. And had a waiting list and 15% of annual rent broker's fee.

Anything is a bargain versus NYC or even SF rents/costs even once you factor in the currency conversion rate.

Markham, Ontario seems fair. Toronto has some nice suburbs.

A 100k CAD salary will go far in Toronto. Similar salary in NYC/SF will get you a shoe box with a view that is a brick wall.

On a side note, the HOA in NY iheartthed is absurd.

Originally Posted by suburbanite

New York also has higher average incomes. Prices in isolation don't mean anything. Fact is, more people are being priced out of Toronto as wages haven't come anywhere close to keeping pace with a soaring cost of living. Covid has brought prices down, but also probably disproportionately increased unemployment.

Its not all its cracked up to be in NY. Once you factor in the taxes, and the city tax and all the other BS, a 100k will not go far at all. Somebody making 70k outside of NYC in a lower cost area is better off than someone making 100-110k in NY.

At the end of the day, throwing one's money all towards living expenses is not good. Some of these folks have paltry savings.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

New York also has higher average incomes. Prices in isolation don't mean anything. Fact is, more people are being priced out of Toronto as wages haven't come anywhere close to keeping pace with a soaring cost of living. Covid has brought prices down, but also probably disproportionately increased unemployment.

Average income is higher, yes. Median is not that much higher than Toronto. Depending on the currency exchange rate, it could be lower than Toronto.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If that place was in NYC it would've rented for at minimum 2.5x $1700CAD in 2017. And had a waiting list and 15% of annual rent broker's fee.

You forgot monthly "amenities fees" for newer buildings, last month's rent added to security deposit, two years of tax returns, and an interview with board if renting in a coop or condo.

But yeah, incomes, apples-to-apples, are much higher, esp. for the types of professions renting in prime neighborhoods. They're higher than basically anywhere.

And most younger people share apartments, so income to rent ratio is rather low, especially in Manhattan. Four banking analysts rooming together have tremendous buying power. And they're never in their apartment anyways.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Average income is higher, yes. Median is not that much higher than Toronto. Depending on the currency exchange rate, it could be lower than Toronto.

I should say, incomes for people competing for centrally located apartments. People working downtown jobs and renting close by will make considerably more in New York. I'm pretty sure rent burdens (as a percent of income) are highest in Vancouver and Toronto.