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  #61  
Old Posted May 25, 2021, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
It would also reduce the number of provinces, which I personally would be happy with. Accomplishing major national projects is a nightmare given our overly decentralized federation and the power afforded to provinces.
Are there many good examples of national projects that PEI or NB made significantly more complicated? I tend to see the larger provinces as the "empire building" provinces that tend to push more against the federal government or smaller provinces and generally seem more dysfunctional. In the US the largest states are the most heavily regulated and hidebound.

This concern about obstructionist provinces also seems somewhat at odds with the idea that merging the Maritimes would give them more clout federally.

What province did better during covid, Ontario due to its larger and more efficient scale, or PEI? We can debate what the differences were but I think the decision-making power being finer-grained on PEI and "closer to the people" was one advantage.

I think a lot of the reasons people bring up for a merger are essentially orthogonal to what the provincial border ends up being. A province can add or remove MLAs, or harmonize rules with neighbours, etc. I think we hear less about that stuff because it requires the knowledge of the nuts and bolts like say what the differences in accreditation for plumbers is between NS and PEI.
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  #62  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 12:04 AM
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MonctonRad seems to agree with me although we can quibble over details. If as he suggests NS is more or less becoming a city-state ruled by pretentious people in Halifax who don't care about places like Moncton, why would they be for a Maritime merger or moving the capital up north somewhere? How would this merger happen if the largest and most influential portion of people in the biggest province to be merged would tend to be against it? Something would have to change. But the region has actually been doing better as a whole lately economically and demographically so I think the merger is even farther away. And the bulk of the gains that are generally thought to come via mergers really come down to a bunch of small things that can be fixed whether or not a merger happens.
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  #63  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 12:08 AM
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Although we often think in these terms, you need a reason to redraw borders. Would it make Canada work better as a country? Would some of these new and more representative divisions end up being welfare provinces, while others foot the bills? Would division of certain politically dominant sections of the country (Quebec & Ontario) create less polarity and a more democratically harmonious country?
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  #64  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 12:19 AM
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MonctonRad seems to agree with me although we can quibble over details. If as he suggests NS is more or less becoming a city-state ruled by pretentious people in Halifax who don't care about places like Moncton, why would they be for a Maritime merger or moving the capital up north somewhere? How would this merger happen if the largest and most influential portion of people in the biggest province to be merged would tend to be against it? Something would have to change. But the region has actually been doing better as a whole lately economically and demographically so I think the merger is even farther away. And the bulk of the gains that are generally thought to come via mergers really come down to a bunch of small things that can be fixed whether or not a merger happens.
I understand the sentiment, but it's certainly possible for such things to happen without the support of the largest city, and most-densely populated countryside:

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  #65  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 12:30 AM
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I understand the sentiment, but it's certainly possible for such things to happen without the support of the largest city, and most-densely populated countryside
The demographics were pretty different in 1948. I'd guess that St. John's was a much smaller portion of the province and the farther rural areas were much more significant than now. People living even a bit outside of town on the Avalon would have been "rural", living a truly resource-based existence for the most part, whereas today most people can easily travel 100 km.

I don't think it is impossible but like I said I think a bunch of stuff has to change. And in this thread there's no clear connection for why say rural NS would want some NB/PEI/NS merger. MonctonRad was just saying that some Cape Bretoners wants to separate from NS. If they feel their concerns are not addressed in NS why would it get better to add more people into a bigger province? I guess they might just have a hate-on for the city, but it's hard to imagine anyone might feel that way.
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  #66  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 12:43 AM
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I understand the sentiment, but it's certainly possible for such things to happen without the support of the largest city, and most-densely populated countryside:

St.John's did not have the dominance it has today in population and representation. The rural areas were the majority in 1949.
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  #67  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 12:52 AM
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The 25 Provinces of Canada:



1) - Vancouver Island, capital - Victoria. Rationale - geographically separate from mainland BC, used to be it's own colony in the past, has political and philosophical differences compared to mainland BC.
2) - Cascadia, capital - New Westminster. Rationale - urban and sophisticated compared to the remainder of former BC, very progressive and liberal in it's orientation. Consists of lower mainland, extending up Howe Sound to Squamish and to Whistler, but not to Lillooet. Also includes Sunshine Coast.
3) - British Columbia, capital - Kamloops. Rationale - rural and conservative compared to "Cascadia", resource based economy. Different mindset compared to the former coastal portions of BC.
4) - Alberta, capital - Calgary. Rationale - very conservative, individualistic, resource based economy, agricultural sector based on rangeland and cattle ranching.
5) - Athabaska, capital - Edmonton. Rationale - also resource based economy, but not as politically conservative. Agricultural sector dominated by farming rather than cattle ranching.
6) - Assiniboia, capital - Regina. Rationale - was a proposed province back in about 1900. Oil and gas sector, potash mining, less productive farmland compared to the north.
7) - Saskatchewan, capital - Saskatoon. Rationale - better quality farmland and more moisture. Also includes norther hinterland.
8) - Manitoba, capital - Winnipeg. No change from current status.
9) - Yukon, capital - Whitehorse. No change from current status except a province rather than a territory.
10) - Nahanni, capital - Yellowknife. Former NWT, now a province.
11) - Nunavut, capital - Iqaluit. No change from current status, except a province rather than a territory.
12) - Nipigon, capital - Thunder Bay. Rationale - geographically remote from and ignored by power centres in former Ontario, resource based economy with shipping and industry based in the Lakehead.
13) - Nipissing, capital - North Bay. Rationale - also an ignored part of northern Ontario, but linguistically different from NW Ontario with a large francophone minority. May be constituted as a bilingual province.
14) - Ontario, capital - Toronto. Rationale - rump Ontario, still the most populous and influential province in the federation.
15) - Laurentia, capital - Montreal. Rationale - now politically divorced from the remainder of Quebec, the anglophone minority of this new province might garner a little more respect. At the very least, Montreal will be constituted as a bilingual city in this new francophone province. It will be a powerful rival for rump Ontario. Laurentia would include the Estrie, the Outouais and the Laurentians.
16) - Quebec, capital - Quebec City. Rationale - the francophone heartland of Canada, this province will be 99% French speaking. In addition to Quebec City. this province will include the Saguenay, the Beauce and the Bas St-Laurent.
17) - Nouveau Quebec, capital - Rouyn-Noranda. Rationale - resource based economy in northern Quebec, but geographically remote from other population centres in the former province of Quebec.
18) - Gaspe, capital - Rimouski. Rationale - Culturally different than the remainder of former Quebec. The economy is fishing based. This region is even referred to as la Quebec Maritime. The Gaspe deserves to be a province.
19) - Acadia, capital - Moncton. Rationale - northeastern NB is majority francophone, very liberal, and has little in common with anglophone conservative southwestern NB. Unfortunately, in order to give Acadia workable boundaries, a large anglophone population will be included, totalling about 35-40% of the population. This province will have to be bilingual. The capital (Moncton) is majority anglophone.
20) - New Brunswick, capital - Fredericton. Rationale - this rump province will be 95% anglophone, and will be freed from the shackles of enforced bilingualism. There will be great rejoicing in the streets.
21) - Prince Edward Island, capital - Charlottetown - no change from current status.
22) - Nova Scotia, capital - Halifax - will be divested of Cape Breton. Otherwise, there is no change.
23) - Cape Breton, capital - Sydney. Rationale - used to be it's own separate colony. Long neglected by Halifax, Cape Breton will see a renaissance spawned by it's political autonomy, with decisions made at home rather than by disinterested political mandarins in far off Haligon.
24) - Newfoundland, capital - St. John's. Rump Newfoundland will be little different after cleaving off Labrador.
25) - Labrador, capital - Goose Bay. Rationale - geographically remote from St. John's, Labrador will benefit from political autonomy. The native population of Labrador will have much more political clout.

One interesting thing about dividing Canada up in this way is that there would be six provinces with significant francophone populations. It would be interesting to see how this would affect the dynamic of the country.
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Last edited by MonctonRad; May 26, 2021 at 12:33 PM.
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  #68  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 1:24 AM
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I'm not really sure about a Maritime Union. Others brought up how Nova Scotia likely wouldn't want to compromise by moving Halifax elsewhere and I agree. I'm not sure if NB or PEI would be fine with being governed from Halifax, either. That would leave a New Brunswick-PEI union but I don't feel like that has the same teeth to it as a full Maritime Union. I'm not sure if PEI and NB's interests are that aligned. The Maritimes as a region have some cohesion and similarity, but ultimately, each province grew into its own thing and have variations such that putting two of the provinces together doesn't feel as natural. It's all in or nothing IMO and I don't think NS would be too interested in it.

Overall, the subnational boundaries in Canada don't bother me as much as in the US, where state lines randomly cut through metro areas like Kansas City, New York, and Memphis, and were clearly made without any rhyme or reason as to how these places would end up developing. Which is the case for most colonized places, it's just that in Canada, outside of Ottawa and Lloydminster, there aren't really major cross-border communities and the central areas tend to not be adjacent to other provinces, meaning each can form its own identity in a way.

That being said, the Nunavik region in Northern Quebec isn't really culturally Quebec like Trois Pistoles or Granby is. I'm not sure if merging it with Nunavut or making it its own territory makes most sense, but that should ultimately be up to the Indigenous peoples of Northern Quebec.

I also agree with many that Northwestern Ontario ought to be part of Manitoba. For all intents and purposes, it is an extension of Manitoba. It's where Manitobans vacation and Northwestern Ontarians utilize Manitoban services regularly. Somewhere between Terrace Bay and Marathon could be the border.

The BC Peace Region should be united with Alberta, too. Remake the Yukon-BC border a bit by giving Atlin to the Yukon and have a more natural border following the Liard River to the east.

I find the Canada-US border the most odd. Again, clearly made before any major colonial settlement had occurred and without any regard for the people already living there or the identities that would form later and often even without regard for geography (Point Roberts and Angle Inlet, anyone?).

With that in mind, the Alaska Panhandle should be given to Canada. Or, at the very least, Haines and Skagway should, as they do have highway access to the rest of North America but only via Canada.

The 49th Parallel should at least be fixed for Angle Inlet and Point Roberts. But a better idea would be to have a more natural border for the Lower Mainland, where it all is part of Canada. This could either be in the hilly terrain between Bellingham and Burlington-Mt Vernon, around Lake Samish and Whatcom, or following the Skagit River, making Burlington-Mt Vernon border twins. To the east, I'm not sure why the border stopped following the Great Lakes. From Thunder Bay east, consistently, the US-Canada border follows that the northern shores of the lakes go to Canada while the southern shores go to the US. But that just ends SW of Thunder Bay. A better border would be to have it continue to Duluth, where the St Louis River becomes the border, with Superior WI still within the United States. It can follow that until about Floodwood, but I'm not sure beyond there if there's a natural geography to follow. Perhaps at that point a line could be drawn across the Great Plains? It would mean Grand Forks and Minot are part of Canada, but Fargo and Bismarck are not. Perhaps once it hits Lake Sakakawea it can follow a more natural border again with the Missouri River, until the Marias River, then follow that through Montana.

In the east, Ontario and Quebec's borders are mostly fine, I think. Maybe Quebec's could be cleaned up a bit with New Hampshire and Maine, but it's mostly fine. But Maine should at least partially be part of Canada. The entire state could be another Maritime province, I suppose, but at least the northern "hump" of the state could go to Canada. The US doesn't really do much with this land anyway, but it would be tremendously beneficial to Canada as it would improve links between Quebec and the Maritimes. Even if you drew a straight line from Houlton across, that would be good.

Also St Pierre and Miquelon would be interesting. Obviously it would depend on the will of the people there, but I could see an arrangement where it's either its own territory, part of Newfoundland, or Quebec.
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  #69  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 2:17 AM
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Did you know that the easternmost point in Manitoba is located to the east of Thunder Bay???? 16km east, in fact. If it were on the lakeshore, it would end near McKenzie.

I imagine that given Ontario's significantly lower income taxes (about two thirds of Manitoba's), if the border were located there, the population east of that line would be rather significant, like the Lloydminster situation.
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  #70  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 2:20 AM
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Are there many good examples of national projects that PEI or NB made significantly more complicated? I tend to see the larger provinces as the "empire building" provinces that tend to push more against the federal government or smaller provinces and generally seem more dysfunctional.
That’s more a complaint about the whole federal setup in general. But one thing right now would be the idea of a national 10-dollar-a-day childcare program. As a parent facing down a daycare bill that’s basically a second mortgage, I’d like to see it come to pass. But as always with these things, it will come down to whether the government can work with the provinces. NS has expressed enthusiasm, whereas NB’s premier has basically decreed it a vote-buying effort aimed at big-city dwellers. Can we implement a national level program for Canadians in spite of all this junior-level jockeying by provincial pols? I’m skeptical.

Just imagine if we ever try to do pharmacare.
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  #71  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 2:41 AM
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Did you know that the easternmost point in Manitoba is located to the east of Thunder Bay???? 16km east, in fact. If it were on the lakeshore, it would end near McKenzie.

I imagine that given Ontario's significantly lower income taxes (about two thirds of Manitoba's), if the border were located there, the population east of that line would be rather significant, like the Lloydminster situation.
Do you think Thunder Bay, Kenora, and Dryden would be smaller if part of Manitoba?
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  #72  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 3:00 AM
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Do you think Thunder Bay, Kenora, and Dryden would be smaller if part of Manitoba?
Thunder Bay would likely be bigger, at Winnipeg's expense. The province would be balanced like Saskatchewan, with the farming western portion and the boreal eastern portion roughly equal in population, around 700,000 each with two thirds of it in the core city.
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  #73  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 3:18 AM
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Also St Pierre and Miquelon would be interesting. Obviously it would depend on the will of the people there, but I could see an arrangement where it's either its own territory, part of Newfoundland, or Quebec.
Eh, it wouldn't be that interesting. Pierre & Miquelon has less than half the pop. of the Iles-de-la-Madeleine, and that's with significant financial help from France. If it were to join NL/QC it would likely decline without significant investment.

The more I think about a Maritime merger the more I consider that it might be in NB's best interest if it resulted in them not being as dominated by the Irving family as they currently are. Surely it would be difficult for Irving to control a larger Maritime province than a smaller NB, but who knows; perhaps it would just give them a larger province to play and dictate local policy with.
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  #74  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 1:52 PM
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Eh, it wouldn't be that interesting. Pierre & Miquelon has less than half the pop. of the Iles-de-la-Madeleine, and that's with significant financial help from France. If it were to join NL/QC it would likely decline without significant investment.

The more I think about a Maritime merger the more I consider that it might be in NB's best interest if it resulted in them not being as dominated by the Irving family as they currently are. Surely it would be difficult for Irving to control a larger Maritime province than a smaller NB, but who knows; perhaps it would just give them a larger province to play and dictate local policy with.
I actually think NB would have the most to gain in some ways. Its provincial power structures, government and business, are incredibly parochial and inward-looking, to the detriment of the province (IMO). That's partly about the Irvings, though not entirely. (It certainly is now; the current premier is basically an Irving lackey.)

A bigger playing field might reduce the old-boys' club effect on those power structures.
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  #75  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 1:58 PM
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Also St Pierre and Miquelon would be interesting. Obviously it would depend on the will of the people there, but I could see an arrangement where it's either its own territory, part of Newfoundland, or Quebec.
All Quebec would have to do is offer them the opportunity to host a single Habs exhibition game and they would sever any tie that exists with Newfoundland. And you can tell them I said so!
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  #76  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 2:56 PM
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I actually think NB would have the most to gain in some ways. Its provincial power structures, government and business, are incredibly parochial and inward-looking, to the detriment of the province (IMO). That's partly about the Irvings, though not entirely. (It certainly is now; the current premier is basically an Irving lackey.)

A bigger playing field might reduce the old-boys' club effect on those power structures.
If we're being honest, the anglo-franco divide in NB often makes it difficult to get everyone pushing in the same direction, or on the same page.

Some periods in history have been better than others on this front, but it's often been a pretty big challenge for the province.

(And it looks like we might be in the midst of a low point right now.)
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  #77  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 2:57 PM
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For Francos in NB it is probably preferable to the situation in Ontario, where there is little to no protection or advocacy on behalf of their linguistic group. And thus, assimilation is much higher.
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  #78  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 3:06 PM
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For Francos in NB it is probably preferable to the situation in Ontario, where there is little to no protection or advocacy on behalf of their linguistic group. And thus, assimilation is much higher.
Francophones in Ontario and New Brunswick are in a bad spot. They're concentrated in areas that are in economic decline and when they have to move to a location with decent economic prospects, fluent English-speaking skills are a requirement.

Unless one makes a concerted effort to go against the grain (i.e. choose a Francophone-majority area and Francophone spouse) it'll be an uphill battle.

It's less a governmental design and more demographic momentum.

I've said it before, but I suspect that Quebec will eventually be the final outpost of the French language in Canada.
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  #79  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 3:25 PM
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For Francos in NB it is probably preferable to the situation in Ontario, where there is little to no protection or advocacy on behalf of their linguistic group. And thus, assimilation is much higher.
Yes, even if there are challenges there NB is overall a better place for francophones than Ontario is. Owing to population share and concentration.

There are 2.5 times a many Franco-Ontariens in sheer numbers, but they make up less than 5% of the population whereas in NB francophones are close to a third of the population.

Fairly large areas of NB are also between 90-100% francophone. You don't really have that in Ontario outside of a few very small towns that you can count on one hand.
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  #80  
Old Posted May 26, 2021, 3:29 PM
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External; Canada needs a renewed focus on amalgamating with an island nation.

I want Canada to have it own Hawaii, not taken by force, but by shared economic interests.

Oh how I desperately wish that was a reality.
I agree completely. we should quit beating around the bush and formalize our nation's deep historic ties to our communist neighbour to the south

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