Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5 - Page 375

Comrade · #**7481** Posted **Jun 21, 2020, 10:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orlando

Well, you should believe me. Office & residential development in Lehi & Draper have far outpaced downtown SLC. Building Salt Lake posted a few articles about it a while ago. I'm from the Salt Lake area but have lived in Atlanta, Orlando, Philly, Portland, and now Seattle. Atlanta and Orlando are two very sprawlish metros and their downtown areas have lacked the urban vibrancy that you see in Portland and Seattle, although Atlanta is seeing a lot of dense mixed-use infill now. I continue to see all of the new single family residential development and stand-alone office parks pop up in Lehi land. I continue to see all of that development down there far outpace the development in downtown SLC. It is the opposite up here in Seattle and Portland. There's so much more demand to build in downtown Seattle. A lot of that has to do with how Amazon and Paull Allen's Vulcan development created an Innovation Zone just north of downtown in South Lake Union. There have been 40 highrises built in the downtown Seattle area in the last decade.

A lot of it also is about demographics. There are more married couples and families per capita in Utah than, I believe, every state, which creates more of an incentive to not live in a 1 or 2bedroom condo downtown versus owning a 3 or 4 bedroom home in the burbs.

This is a direct result of Salt Lake having a small market mindset. The city is failing to grow the right way and failing to take the steps needed to implement the type of development we likely need to keep up with most other major cities in the area.

To put it bluntly: Salt Lake is developing like a suburb of Portland or Seattle - not like the actual central city of a major metropolitan center. Our leaders are some of the most shortsighted folks you could ask for. We just do not have a big city political mindset and I fear by the time we realize it's needed, it'll be too late.

Salt Lake absolutely operates out of a reactive mindset. Everything is a reaction to something - it's never a proactive approach. To be honest, I can't even recall the last time Salt Lake City really proactively pushed for the creation of significant development. It's likely the Gateway. Everything else is minor, incremental changes that, over time, don't dramatically change.

I go back to 400 South as an example of this. The development we're seeing there is on the level it was back in 2010 and the early 2000s. Maybe there's more of it - but it's not dramatically different. Because of that, 400 South is no more urban than it was a decade ago. It's more dense - but certainly not more urban.

But this is the reality of the city. I could confidently say the last time it felt like we actually had a mayor with that type of vision was Rocky & Deedee. Since? The three mayors we have had would be good for smaller communities like Ogden or Provo but they are absolutely not up for the challenge to lead the center of a metro, or CSA, as big as Salt Lake City.

Comrade · #**7482** Posted **Jun 21, 2020, 10:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC14

I have been assuming 370 millennium was dead given there is a large "For Sale" sign on the property but with this project, who knows.

Not a surprise. That site is cursed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

I work just a block away from the held site. I can confirm that although it used to have signs for leasing the signs now and have been for a while for sale. I'm 99% confident that that project is dead in the water.

Being a bar owner downtown I can confirm that there is little to no happy hour culture in Salt Lake City. Part of that is because about ten years ago they made happy hours illegal. Some bars do well around 5pm but almost all of those bars are food focused. I think that a big factor in why this is the case is that although a lot of the younger work force is non-mormon and want to go out and blow off steam after work, the management and boss tier positions are widely older and LDS. Building workplace culture usually comes from the top down so if the boss isn't taking you out for drinks after work it just isn't part of the culture.

I know it's not a fair comparison at all - but I relocated to Chicago for work and it's insane how dramatically different the culture is there. Just so much going on at all times. I never really understood the happy hour culture because of living my whole life in Salt Lake, but the tower I worked at connected over into an area where there were bars that we hit up every day during happy hour (when things were open). It was such a surreal experience.

The thing is, it wasn't just in the heart of Chicago, either. I lived in Deerfield, which is suburban Chicago, and you had happy hour events at a lot of the local places there, too.

Maybe I am being too hard on Salt Lake. Maybe it's not the leaders. Maybe it's just the demographics. Salt Lake absolutely, positively does not feel like a big city. Or even a medium sized city. It feels like a suburb. There's just not the dynamic, or culture, that comes with city life.

Even Phoenix felt way more cosmopolitan than Salt Lake when I spent a few days down there last year for work. On a work day, we went out to Westgate there. Truth be told, there is absolutely nothing comparable to that in Salt Lake City - or any of its suburbs - and I know the Phoenix metro has multiple sites like it. On a week day night, it wasn't the busiest place but there was still a fairly decent crowd. I don't think you would ever find a crowd like that downtown on a weekday night.

But again, that could be the culture.

My question, though, is what is Salt Lake doing to change it?

Why is happy hour not legal in Salt Lake?

Silly shit like that is so frustrating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePusherMan

In other news: The AT&T store is officially no more. I'm happy to see projects expanding west and south. Makes more of the the D2 area feel like it is part of downtown. When we were looking at placing my bar one of the places we looked was State and 6th next to the AAA Jewelers (it's still vacant). At the time it felt very far from the downtown core but a couple massive apartment complexes later and it feels very much so apart of the city. I hear both sides of the vibrancy/street engagement vs density argument. Are there no non commercial/retail to making these apartment buildings more engaging? Art? I just feel like there's got to be something in between these two extremes. Also, more height please and thank you.

That I like to hear. That whole area of downtown feels so isolated from the rest of the core. It'll be nice to see some development there.

Rileybo · #**7483** Posted **Jun 21, 2020, 11:44 PM**

I’d like to echo most of what Comrade has said. I get the “big city vibe” while in downtown SLC, but that sense of vibrancy dies down pretty quick the farther you venture from the core. Compare 300 S to 600 S. Granted, these are massive blocks, but the overall feeling is night and day with only a few streets between.

As a younger man, I was excited to finally visit hot local bars, clubs, and venues that everyone in town knows about. Now as an adult, many of those places are disassembled, unrecognizable, demolished and replaced with boring ass crap, or are on the short path to that. I love in the venue, and knowing what that block will become in a couple years breaks my heart, and hurts my head. Classic staples of our city I remembered as a child are now gone and unrecognizable, and I’m by no means old, or really even that seasoned.

Could enough voices together pressure the city to adopt new policies to encourage or even enforce a more urban and attractive city? Perhaps if just the people on this and similar forums voiced their disdain every time one of these underwhelming and culture destroying developments comes around, meaningful change could start to happen. Everyone who I’ve ever met in this valley who actually participates in the local scene says they desire more, but the city never hears of this at any public meetings. Our leaders need to know that we demand more. At one point, SLC was certainly comparable to and even farther along than other mid sized cities; particularly in the last couple decades we have really began trailing behind. Portland reminded me of Salt Lake when I visited a number of years ago, and recently that place has really stepped things up while still valuing the existing urban fabric. Oh just because it was mentioned, too..I’d say SLC has made much smarter choices in the long run compared to PHX. Personally, I prefer the feel of Salt Lake over Phoenix much more. Not that that really matters.

If things continue the way they are in SLC, I wonder how long it will take for my loyalty to this place to completely diminish.

Atlas · #**7484** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 12:52 AM**

I like a lot of the development happening in SLC: the Exchange, 95 State, Liberty Sky, the CCH, Moda Luxe, Block 67, the Greek Cathedral project, and all of the current Lowe projects will be great for the city. I'm not too broken up about the Pantages Theater and I look forward to that tower project and Kensington in the future. I'm an optimist, and I do think we are generally improving.

That said, some of these other apartment projects, particularly the ones we have been talking about recently in the Depot District and elsewhere, are really subpar and I don't think it's wrong to call it out. The Depot District area is literally a "gateway" to downtown and, now that the area has been cleaned up and its reputation is improving, I think there is tremendous potential there that shouldn't be squandered by building cheap, single-use apartment complexes at prime locations.

Imagine Dixon Place at the Central West/In the Venue location (they're the same size) and tell me that wouldn't be a thousand times better than Central West. The materials are better, the design is better, and it has a space for a coffee shop or something on the street. That area is begging for a nice coffee shop too (among many other things). New residents will bring increased demand and dollars for retail.

Makid · #**7485** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 2:09 AM**

I know there may be some that disagree but I do think that Becker was a good mayor for SLC.

He fought for the broadway style theater (Eccles Theater) to be downtown. He fought to improve transit in SLC. He pushed for the S-Line and was one of the key people pushing for the Airport extension to go down North Temple and be center running. He also pushed for it to be a concrete base rather than gravel as in front of the Gateway.

He pushed for the Downtown and Granary streetcars (still included in the transit master plan). He also pushed for a transit hub on 200 South between State and 7th East (currently planned for 5th East).

He also pushed for fixes in the Planning Department and the RDA process to speed up developments while working to improve the urban environment.

SLC, as a whole, was riding a wave of momentum until Jackie.

Jackie came in and decided she knew better. Requested resignation letters from every department head and accepted 95% of them. As a result, SLC lost years, decades in some cases, of experience and growth that put SLC on a forward path. The City Council had to step in and force the S-Line, Downtown, and Granary streetcar lines to be added back into the transit plan as Jackie was anti-rail and didn't want it listed in the Transit Master Plan.

Some departments had to start their growth over nearly from the beginning. It took them a while to figure out what was lost and how to replicate it. Changes are still happening even today. In some cases, around development, these changes are being pushed by the City Council directly.

The City Council is pushing for increased height, density, design, and function. They are pushing improved transit within the City. They are pushing a City first mentality rather than just being the focus of the Region.

I will say that it did take a bit of a wake up call for the City Council to fully change. It started last August regarding the area just east of the Central Station. Finding out that the City had lost out on a headquarters for a Tech Unicorn because the location wouldn't allow for the height. This lead to the push to overhaul the heights throughout the City and as I have stated previously, the study should start soon.

I think the biggest issue affecting SLC directly at this time isn't in the control of the City but rather the State. For this, just look at the last 15 years. 3 years of Huntsman and 12 years of Herbert.

Huntsman pushed for and got rid of the Zion Curtain, liberalized alcohol laws, pushed for a more world view for SLC and the State.

During Herbert's time, we added back the Zion Curtain, for new businesses, then replaced it with a Zion moat, followed by the current "This is a Bar"/"This is a Restaurant". Happy Hour was banned, reduced alcohol prices was banned, lower BAC happened, a push to build a new heart for the Wasatch Front was made in Draper, and so forth.

The City itself can only control so much when the State decides it knows better. Think the Real Stadium. It was originally going to be Downtown (4th South and West Temple), then the State stepped in and stopped the City from using RDA funds to support Sports Infrastructure. Then there was the push to get the Stadium at the Fair Park or just South of the Park but the State wouldn't supply funding nor support the plan as it might "Interfere with the State Fair". Then the Stadium selected a site in Sandy and the State rescinded the law that stopped SLC from using RDA funds for Sports Infrastructure. Even the County wouldn't support the Stadium in Sandy and the State had to basically force the County to fund the Stadium infrastructure.

Even after the Stadium, look at what is happening with the Inland Port. They are using the SLC Master Plan but taking control because they felt it was too important for a City to control. It was the City Council that stepped up and worked with the State to get any kind of say in what happens with the Port. They now have more control and access to funds that were originally stripped.

To get a bit political, if we want SLC to grow and attract National and International attention, while also fixing some other aspects of control (Happy Hours), we need to get Huntsman back in as Governor.

Huntsman not only supports SLC, but outside of the Governor's Mansion, he actually lives in SLC. He lives in the 95 West Tower at City Creek. His Brother owns the SL Tribune. His Family supports the University of Utah, the U Hospital and the Huntsman Cancer Institute. He wants to do what he can to make SLC an international draw, not just for tourism but for Commercial and Industrial growth.

SLC as a whole is on the right track now and it is picking up steam. Provided that the City doesn't get derailed by the State, we should see good growth in the City over the next 10 plus years.

wrendog · #**7486** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 2:30 AM**

This is an awesome aerial from 1948. I can stare at the different parts of it for a long time. From reddit:

Rileybo · #**7487** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 3:46 AM**

The state acts more like an antagonist against the city rather than an ally. I still love Salt Lake but the state government is just awful and often evil. It’s really unfortunate how Utah as a whole is perceived in the rest of the country. Most critiques about the state are more than valid IMO, but I wish SLC wasn’t always lumped in. Friends of mine who have visited from out of state tend to comment that aside from the weird alcohol serving laws in bars and the state liquor stores, Salt Lake felt like a typical bigger American city. I think people come here and anticipate being overwhelmed by missionaries and polygamists on every corner, and not a single pint in sight.

Also, that 40’s shot is awesome.

Always Sunny in SLC · #**7488** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 3:46 AM**

Makid, I love your post. I agree that Becker was an underrated mayor. That Jackie was a dumpster fire and set SLC back years and Huntsman is the ONLY Governor that cares about SLC and has any understanding of what it takes to be a modern city. He can balance all the sides without being anyone’s lap dog (looking at you Herbert). Cox is a really nice guy, but has no understanding of urban principles. He lives in rural Utah and it shows. I am positive, despite my comments, that SLC has a solid future. I point to Portland and Denver as cities we can learn what works and what doesn’t, but I want SLC to be SLC and not a clone of some other city.

Always Sunny in SLC · #**7489** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 3:57 AM**

I didn’t appreciate that already by 1948 there had been so much wealth destroyed to make way for the automobile and its needed parking lots. That is a great find. I also didn’t realize how extensive the railroad tracks were and how many buildings that still exist, have funny shapes because of the track routes. I agree, I could spend hours.

DMTower · #**7490** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 7:02 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blah_Amazing

I personally think a lot of you are being a little overdramatic about this. You are basically demanding that this area goes from 0 to 100 instantly as if that is some normal occurrence. Do you really think if we start going through Portland or Denver block by block that we wouldn't find Alta Depot style structures even with all of their regulations? Of course we would.

No, actually you would not. I now live in Portland, and the very worst development I have seen go up in the last three years is still far better than 95% of the projects going up in Salt Lake right now. There is a fundamental difference in the expectations people here have from projects vs what people find acceptable in Salt Lake. Projects like the ones being built in the Gateway area would never fly here.

delts145 · #**7491** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 7:12 AM**

^^^
99% of the suggestions on these many past posts are constructive criticisms on how Salt Lake City must improve its developments in certain areas. However, I find your last three posts to be nothing but hate-filled vitriol aiming to settle some massive 'Salt Lake done me wrong' chip on your shoulder. I'm sure Portland would not appreciate me coming on to their thread and offering up the same tone. Seriously, both Portland and Salt Lake City are exceptional. Also, both have areas where improvement is needed. Believe me, I hear enough about Portlands shortcoming from my friends who are transplants here in Los Angeles. Of course, Los Angeles has its own set of unique issues to deal with.

delts145 · #**7492** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 7:48 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Always Sunny in SLC

Makid, I love your post. I agree that Becker was an underrated mayor. That Jackie was a dumpster fire and set SLC back years and Huntsman is the ONLY Governor that cares about SLC and has any understanding of what it takes to be a modern city. He can balance all the sides without being anyone’s lap dog (looking at you Herbert). Cox is a really nice guy, but has no understanding of urban principles. He lives in rural Utah and it shows. I am positive, despite my comments, that SLC has a solid future. I point to Portland and Denver as cities we can learn what works and what doesn’t, but I want SLC to be SLC and not a clone of some other city.

Very much agree Always Sunny. There's such a thing as constructive criticism and Makid was point on. Hopefully, Huntsman will prevail. I think he will, at least that seems to be where the polls are trending.

DMTower · #**7493** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 8:06 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by delts145

...And we're very happy for you. Now please stay in Portland and quit trolling this thread.

Thank you!

I am critical of these shit developments because I love and care about SLC. One of the reasons I left was because I became so discouraged by so many objectively horrible developments being approved, again and again, and no signs of design maturity on the city planning level in sight. You are one to always take a Pollyanna view of everything proposed in SLC, which is fine, but my criticisms come from my love of SLC and because of the potential I know it has. It's because of this great potential that development proposals such as Alta Depot should be criticized and rejected. Enabling developers to build sub par, short-sighted monstrosities only hurts SLC and shows a lack of faith in the potential of downtown.

delts145 · #**7494** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 8:33 AM**

You'll note that I had changed my post and I hadn't even read your response yet. Of course, I'm not surprised that you're telling me to F off. I mean that's pretty much the temperament of your last few posts.

Look, you seem to have difficulty when it comes to not casting overly broad strokes. Among other things you continually insist that ALL developments and ALL people in the Salt Lake area are inherently stupid. That's simply ridiculous. You've been on this forum long enough and should know the difference between sharing a criticism and trolling.

Blah_Amazing · #**7495** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 11:09 AM**

Did anyone else see this KJazz article/photos showing the rubble of the Capitol Motel: https://kjzz.com/news/photos-slcs-ca...tion-aftermath

Quote:

SALT LAKE CITY (KUTV) — Salt Lake City's Capitol Motel is now several large piles of rubble.
The motel's red neon sign was spotted among the rubble.

2News has collected photos of what remains of the motel, along with a few photos of what it looked like before in our gallery above.

On Friday, crews demolished the motel and few other small buildings located at 1749 S. State St.

The Capitol Motel was demolished to make way for this project:

According to a Building Salt Lake article from 2018: https://www.buildingsaltlake.com/cou...capitol-motel/

Quote:

Another crime-prone motel is poised to be redeveloped into a mixed-use, mixed-income project. On Tuesday the Salt Lake City Council, acting as the Board of Directors for the Redevelopment Agency of Salt Lake City, approved a $3.2 million for Housing Assistance Management Enterprise (HAME) to purchase and develop four parcels on the 1700 South block of State Street.

“The entire community is excited about this project, we hope it’s the first of four or five similar projects along State Street,” said Councilmember Erin Mendenhall.

HAME, in collaboration with the Housing Authority of Salt Lake City (HASLC), wants to build a four-story, mixed-use project with 108 units. The units will have a mix of 40 studio, 60 one-bedroom and eight two-bedroom apartments, 67 percent of which will be income restricted.

The project will also include 1,030 square feet of ground floor commercial space that would initially be used as community space but later converted to a commercial use as the demand for commercial increases in the area.

Map of the Capitol Motel Development site. The property is outlined in red. Image courtesy Salt Lake City public documents.

Blah_Amazing · #**7496** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 11:13 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by RC14

I have been assuming 370 millennium was dead given there is a large "For Sale" sign on the property but with this project, who knows.

Oh, that's too bad, but not surprising. It's hard enough getting an all residential tower financed, let alone such a complex building like 370. Hopefully that will change over time.

Atlas · #**7497** Posted **Jun 22, 2020, 5:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrendog

This is an awesome aerial from 1948. I can stare at the different parts of it for a long time. From reddit:

Does anyone know anything about the building that was on the southwest corner of 400 S and Main on Block 40? It looks comparable in height to the Exchange Place buildings across the street. Another angle. Now that whole block is a giant parking lot. While I was trying to figure that out I found this great blog post with wonderful old photos of Sugar House and downtown: https://classof45a.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/sugarhouse/

Here's a great shot of Main Street and the Utah Theater from what I'm estimating is 1938: