Basketball in Canada

[suburbanite]

Ya you're completely moving the goalposts now that you got attached to Kawhi throughout the year. It was pretty much consensus this time last year that Kawhi was going to LA in free agency. Everyone in the league understood that including Masai when he made the trade. We all understood it was a ballsy but necessary move and that it was 100% worth it if we won our first championship.

Now that we've had a taste, people are forgetting the original proposition.

If people boo Kawhi in his first game back I have no hope for this fanbase.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by esquire

He delivered a championship, what more do you want from him?

It's a bit hollow when it's "here's your championship, I never wanted to be here, I'm outta here."

He's extinguished all of that good feeling from the buildup of the exciting season to the playoff win. It's all gone.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It's a bit hollow when it's "here's your championship, I never wanted to be here, I'm outta here."

He's extinguished all of that good feeling from the buildup of the exciting season to the playoff win. It's all gone.

I don't quite look at it that way. I think it was great that he was here, it was fantastic that the Raps won the championship and that it probably would not have happened without him, for a number of reasons.

But... I'm kinda getting tired of "all Kawhi all the time" in the media. All I seem to hear is that Kawhi won Toronto the championship. During the 'negotiations', all I heard about the Raptors was about Kawhi, as if the rest of the Raptors team didn't exist. This seriously undermines the team that provided Kawhi the foundation on which to do the wonderful things he does on the court.

It was a Raptors win, not a Kawhi win. Sure they may not have won without Kawhi's efforts, but they also wouldn't have won without VanVleet's 3 pointers, or Siakam's hustle, or Gasol's basketball intelligence. It was a team effort, but nobody's talking about the team.

Kawhi moved on, good on him - he's living his life the way he wants to and didn't do anything illegal to get there. No harm, no foul. Danny Green moved on, which is fine as well, he gets to play with Lebron (not that I'd wish that on anyone... lol). It's time to let the entire Raptors team revel in their championship, and let Kawhi go home to LA and get on with his life.

The rest of the team is still around, and they now know the kind of grind and hustle it takes to win a championship. They had great promise before Kawhi, but always fizzled out in the playoffs. Now they know how to do the playoffs, and I'm sure they will be hungry for more (hearing Kyle say "we're not satisfied"...). Kawhi helped them win the championship, but he also taught them how to work for one.

I'm reading that Masai knew by the demeanor of the Leonard team that this wasn't going to go the way we wanted it to, and he knew that it wouldn't be wise to trade the future of the team to OKC for what could have been one of two more years of Kawhi... or zero years, who knows? But, Masai got the team to where it is now, and I'm sure he has a trick or two up his sleeve to ensure that the Raps will be in the hunt again, and frankly I'm excited to think about how the future looks for the Raptors.

Stay tuned! Things are looking good. And in the meantime, enjoy the championship that the Raptors won... yes THEY WON IT!!!

[suburbanite]

Masai is more important to the team than any other individual component. Keeping him was always the top priority in my mind.

He's going to give the team their fair chance to prove they're still a mid-seed playoff team, and if not, will likely look to trade Lowry, Gasol, and Ibaka at the deadline. Im actually kind of looking forward to see what he could do with a full rebuild around Siakam and OG. Hes only ever really retooled around a somewhat consistent core during his time as GM, and has already hit several homeruns with non-lottery picks.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

If people boo Kawhi in his first game back I have no hope for this fanbase.

I give that a 0% chance of happening.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

...it was fantastic that the Raps won the championship and that it probably would not have happened without him,...

Replace "probably" with "definitely."

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

All I seem to hear is that Kawhi won Toronto the championship.

That's because it's true.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

It was a Raptors win, not a Kawhi win.

It was mostly a Kawhi win. You have to have at least two superstars on a roster to win a championship, but there are rare cases where just one will do (this year's Raptors, the Mavericks in 2011), and there was a miracle in 2004 when Detroit won it without any superstars on the team.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Kawhi moved on, good on him - he's living his life the way he wants to and didn't do anything illegal to get there. No harm, no foul.

I understand the mercenary view of pro sports, but I don't see the point in watching in such a detached way. How can you get behind your home team if you don't feel like they're "your guys"? What kind of relationship is that?

It turns out that Kawhi's inscrutability this whole year was because he was holding his breath until he could escape Toronto. He was just biding his time to leave.

Fuck that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Replace "probably" with "definitely."


That's because it's true.


It was mostly a Kawhi win. You have to have at least two superstars on a roster to win a championship, but there are rare cases where just one will do (this year's Raptors, the Mavericks in 2011), and there was a miracle in 2004 when Detroit won it without any superstars on the team.


I understand the mercenary view of pro sports, but I don't see the point in watching in such a detached way. How can you get behind your home team if you don't feel like they're "your guys"? What kind of relationship is that?

It turns out that Kawhi's inscrutability this whole year was because he was holding his breath until he could escape Toronto. He was just biding his time to leave.

Fuck that.

But the point is that people should be watching in at least a partly detached way because they really are mercenaries. Most of these guys knew nothing about Toronto or Canada until the day they signed their contract.

Seeing them as "your guys" and being so bitter about this as a horrible betrayal is asking for too much and just more proof that Raptors mania has gone way overboard and turned into something it is not and cannot ever be.

Without things being perfect, if you really want to cheer on "your guys" you should be supporting one of Canada's national teams (pick any sport). Or even the Leafs or Argos which would be better choices.

[Acajack]

Cheering on the Raptors as "your guys" with such a symbiotic vision of their relationship to Toronto and Canada is almost like going to the movies in Etobicoke and cheering on Spiderman as "your guy".

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don't quite look at it that way. I think it was great that he was here, it was fantastic that the Raps won the championship and that it probably would not have happened without him, for a number of reasons.

But... I'm kinda getting tired of "all Kawhi all the time" in the media. All I seem to hear is that Kawhi won Toronto the championship. During the 'negotiations', all I heard about the Raptors was about Kawhi, as if the rest of the Raptors team didn't exist. This seriously undermines the team that provided Kawhi the foundation on which to do the wonderful things he does on the court.

It was a Raptors win, not a Kawhi win. Sure they may not have won without Kawhi's efforts, but they also wouldn't have won without VanVleet's 3 pointers, or Siakam's hustle, or Gasol's basketball intelligence. It was a team effort, but nobody's talking about the team.

Kawhi moved on, good on him - he's living his life the way he wants to and didn't do anything illegal to get there. No harm, no foul. Danny Green moved on, which is fine as well, he gets to play with Lebron (not that I'd wish that on anyone... lol). It's time to let the entire Raptors team revel in their championship, and let Kawhi go home to LA and get on with his life.

The rest of the team is still around, and they now know the kind of grind and hustle it takes to win a championship. They had great promise before Kawhi, but always fizzled out in the playoffs. Now they know how to do the playoffs, and I'm sure they will be hungry for more (hearing Kyle say "we're not satisfied"...). Kawhi helped them win the championship, but he also taught them how to work for one.

I'm reading that Masai knew by the demeanor of the Leonard team that this wasn't going to go the way we wanted it to, and he knew that it wouldn't be wise to trade the future of the team to OKC for what could have been one of two more years of Kawhi... or zero years, who knows? But, Masai got the team to where it is now, and I'm sure he has a trick or two up his sleeve to ensure that the Raps will be in the hunt again, and frankly I'm excited to think about how the future looks for the Raptors.

Stay tuned! Things are looking good. And in the meantime, enjoy the championship that the Raptors won... yes THEY WON IT!!!

That's the nature of basketball. With only a handful of players with any impact on the game, one superstar changes the team more than in any other sport. One player can take a mediocre team and singlehandedly turn it into a contender. Soccer has 11 players on the field, football has two rotations of 11-12, and hockey has frequent line changes. These sports don't allow one player to dominate the way that basketball does. Basketball fundamentally lends itself to celebrity worship and big egos.

Kawai has a bigger impact on his team than Auston Matthews or Vlad Guerrero Jr. ever will. He's rightly getting the credit for this championship and it's a completely different team without him.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Cheering on the Raptors as "your guys" with such a symbiotic vision of their relationship to Toronto and Canada is almost like going to the movies in Etobicoke and cheering on Spiderman as "your guy".

Ha... you summarized it perfectly here.

Although in deference to rousseau, I can sympathize a bit with his situation. In the NHL, which I am admittedly much more familiar with, there is the phenomenon of 'rental players' who typically show up as pending free agents around the trade deadline and everyone knows going into the playoffs that they're only around for a short while. If your team wins the cup and the rental player hero leaves a month later, there are no hard feelings because that was the deal going in.

I guess with Kawhi, I don't know, maybe people weren't following along at the start of the season and just never internalized that he was only there for a short while as basically a 'rental player' (I certainly wasn't aware of that status). So I suppose that for those fans who thought this was the beginning of a dynasty, his departure comes as a bit of a rude awakening.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

I give that a 0% chance of happening.

I hope you're right but I dunno... there seems to be a lot of bitterness around.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Ha... you summarized it perfectly here.

Although in deference to rousseau, I can sympathize a bit with his situation. In the NHL, which I am admittedly much more familiar with, there is the phenomenon of 'rental players' who typically show up as pending free agents around the trade deadline and everyone knows going into the playoffs that they're only around for a short while. If your team wins the cup and the rental player hero leaves a month later, there are no hard feelings because that was the deal going in.

I guess with Kawhi, I don't know, maybe people weren't following along at the start of the season and just never internalized that he was only there for a short while as basically a 'rental player' (I certainly wasn't aware of that status). So I suppose that for those fans who thought this was the beginning of a dynasty, his departure comes as a bit of a rude awakening.

This is a good explanation.

Also Mister F made a good post about why a superstar like Leonard leaving a basketball team is a bigger deal than a similarly renowned star doing the same in most any other team sport.

[esquire]

I guess the bottom line is unrequited love sucks whether you're a 12 year old middle schooler or a spurned NBA team season ticket holder.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I hope you're right but I dunno... there seems to be a lot of bitterness around.

Edwin Encarnacion got a standing ovation when he came back to the Skydome as a Cleveland Indian.

Not quite the same situation, but still.

I think Toronto fans will be ok. Hopefully they keep it classy.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

Edwin Encarnacion got a standing ovation when he came back to the Skydome as a Cleveland Indian.

Not quite the same situation, but still.

I think Toronto fans will be ok. Hopefully they keep it classy.

I am not up on what happened with Edwin. Was his departure from the Blue Jays seen as a "betrayal"?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not up on what happened with Edwin. Was his departure from the Blue Jays seen as a "betrayal"?

A little, but not quite the same. The Jays gave him a really good offer, but Edwin's team misread the market, thinking he was worth more. He turned down the Jays offer, apparently thinking that they offered him below market value, and then Jays hired Kendrys Morales for his position. Finally, Edwin signed with Cleveland for less than the Jays' initial offer.

So, kind of a bumbled deal, kind of Edwin showing he wasn't 'loyal' to Toronto, even though the Jays supported him when he wasn't doing so well as a player.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Mister F

That's the nature of basketball. With only a handful of players with any impact on the game, one superstar changes the team more than in any other sport. One player can take a mediocre team and singlehandedly turn it into a contender. Soccer has 11 players on the field, football has two rotations of 11-12, and hockey has frequent line changes. These sports don't allow one player to dominate the way that basketball does. Basketball fundamentally lends itself to celebrity worship and big egos.

Kawai has a bigger impact on his team than Auston Matthews or Vlad Guerrero Jr. ever will. He's rightly getting the credit for this championship and it's a completely different team without him.

Good points. I was mostly alluding to the fact that the rest of the Raptors have been seemingly ignored even though they just won the championship.

And also, they just won the championship... enjoy it because it may never happen again... forget about Kawhi, it's done.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I understand the mercenary view of pro sports, but I don't see the point in watching in such a detached way. How can you get behind your home team if you don't feel like they're "your guys"? What kind of relationship is that?

It turns out that Kawhi's inscrutability this whole year was because he was holding his breath until he could escape Toronto. He was just biding his time to leave.

Fuck that.

Everybody knew from the start that Toronto wasn't his goal, but he did give it everything while he was there. You can't deny that.

I think people feel slighted because they held the hope that winning the championship and all the 'love' that Toronto gave him would somehow persuade him to give it another year at least. I can't deny that I was hopeful as well, and disappointed that he didn't stay.

But... you're talking about viewing it in a detached way, yet that's exactly what you're doing by not acknowledging that almost the entire rest of the team is returning for another year. Don't understand the total downer about Kawhi, while ignoring that the entire team won the championship, and are still current NBA champions. There's your 'relationship'...

Jesus... just enjoy that and let next year take care of itself. If it's that much of a downer, then maybe it's time to stop following professional sports, because that's just the way it is. It's a job for the players and it's a business for the team owners and the league. It's only fun for the fans (and when it's no longer fun, it's time to move on and take up another interest...).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Good points. I was mostly alluding to the fact that the rest of the Raptors have been seemingly ignored even though they just won the championship.

And also, they just won the championship... enjoy it because it may never happen again... forget about Kawhi, it's done.

Thank you for reminding everyone that it's a team sport. Your primary loyalty is to the team, not to individual players, especially in this day and age.

Of course some players do come to embody the team and become civic icons too. And of course without players, there is no team.

What Kawhi Leonard represents for the Raptors is a far cry from Larry Bird for the Celtics, Magic Johnson for the Lakers or Michael Jordan for the Bulls.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What Kawhi Leonard represents for the Raptors is a far cry from Larry Bird for the Celtics, Magic Johnson for the Lakers or Michael Jordan for the Bulls.

Indeed - Kawhi is a mercenary and a sell-sword, pure and simple. He is the Michael Ignatieff of the Toronto Raptors (just visiting). Toronto fans have to learn to accept this.

Kawhi is not a franchise player like the other that you mentioned. In the long term, I think this will affect his legacy in the NBA. The only loyalty Kawhi has is to himself............