HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development


Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #15541  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 8:59 PM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 697
Re: 4146 Parkside, I was wrong above. The lot being vacant at the time.of designating the district means the commission can only comment and recommend things. Naked Philly actually covered this project before.


http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...parkside-block

It won't be a replica, but at least looks like they're going with similar motifs and massing and not a metal box.
     
     
  #15542  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 9:11 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut View Post
Re: 4146 Parkside, I was wrong above. The lot being vacant at the time.of designating the district means the commission can only comment and recommend things. Naked Philly actually covered this project before.


http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...parkside-block

It won't be a replica, but at least looks like they're going with similar motifs and massing and not a metal box.
If that’s how it’s built, I’m happy. It does Furness honor without just copying his design.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #15543  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 9:12 PM
iheartphilly's Avatar
iheartphilly iheartphilly is offline
Philly Rising Up!
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: motherEarth
Posts: 3,257
^
If they execute this design with craftsmanship and not cheap materials, it should turn out nice and complement the adjacent homes.
     
     
  #15544  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 9:43 PM
Jayfar's Avatar
Jayfar Jayfar is offline
Midrise
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,535
Quote:
Originally Posted by aprice1828 View Post
I'm assuming this will occupy part of the former Century 21 space.
Possibly, but I'm thinking Giant Heirloom may occupy only the portion that was NOT used by Century 21. C21 had their awnings with signage all along the building, but didn't have an actual presence inside the eastern portion where Heirloom is expected.

Yesterday as I was zipping by on a bus, I caught a glimpse of a coming soon sign for <something, something> family department store. I regret I didn't catch the name. I'm guessing that new tenant will take up some or all of the former C21 space.

EDIT: The tenant named on the "coming soon" signage over on the western section is SHOPPERS WORLD, with the taglines "Always New, Always for LESS!" and "Your Family Department Store!" The sign appears in the window to the left of the former Century 21 Market St entrance.

Who the heck is Shoppers World? They're in several states, mostly in the mid-atlantic, but their only PA store thus far is on Aramingo Ave:

3399 Aramingo Avenue, Philadelphia, PA 19134 • (215)291-4923, (215)291-4924

COMING SOON • Fashion District Philadelphia, 821 Market Street (#1130), Philadelphia, PA 19107

Under CEO Sam Dushey, NY-based Shoppers World is in its 3rd generation of family ownership.

http://shoppersworldusa.com/aboutus.html

https://shoppersworldusa.com/store.html
__________________
Philadelphia Industrial & Commercial Heritage
A public Facebook group to promote appreciation of Greater Philadelphia's industrial and commercial history and advocate for historic preservation and adaptive re-use.

Last edited by Jayfar; May 8, 2021 at 9:30 AM.
     
     
  #15545  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 10:56 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut View Post
Re: 4146 Parkside, I was wrong above. The lot being vacant at the time.of designating the district means the commission can only comment and recommend things. Naked Philly actually covered this project before.


http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...parkside-block

It won't be a replica, but at least looks like they're going with similar motifs and massing and not a metal box.
While I agree with you its not a metal box and it has a couple interesting details, just speaking to the question of whether architecturally it works in its context, I'd give it a big fat NO. I know that costs vs. future income is a huge factor here, and in any case knowing how to fit any new building inbetween those two gems on that street would be a great challenge to say the least, but I almost think that a truly modern design, one that acknowledges the open 2nd fl. space and the floor spacing would be better than trying to include cheap stucco and a weak front porch into a 'sortof' historic type design. Somebody needs to have their imagination enlarged.
     
     
  #15546  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 11:03 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrobk View Post
Yeah, it's a good location, but if they build all the supermarkets mentioned in the article, they'll have 8 (if I did my math right!) locations in Center City and the neighborhoods immediately surrounding it. I guess I'm just a bit surprised they think they need that many, especially when you consider other grocery stores have expanded in and around Center City recently.

Also, I missed this the first time I read the article, but one of the locations is apparently going to be part of the development at Broad and Washington. I'd given up hope of that lot ever actually being developed, but maybe if Giant is committed, it will actually start to move forward.
It does seem like a lot of grocery stores in CC, but then there are something like 10K housing units under construction or near construction in greater CC, so if many of those units have a food store within walking distance, that would be great.
How far behind Chicago is Philly for the number of living units in the central district? I wonder if Philly will ever be #2 behind NYC.
     
     
  #15547  
Old Posted May 7, 2021, 11:59 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
While I agree with you its not a metal box and it has a couple interesting details, just speaking to the question of whether architecturally it works in its context, I'd give it a big fat NO. I know that costs vs. future income is a huge factor here, and in any case knowing how to fit any new building inbetween those two gems on that street would be a great challenge to say the least, but I almost think that a truly modern design, one that acknowledges the open 2nd fl. space and the floor spacing would be better than trying to include cheap stucco and a weak front porch into a 'sortof' historic type design. Somebody needs to have their imagination enlarged.
Idk, I think you're being too hard on a project in a still developing area that was under no obligation to even try to fit in.

I agree that with stucco and brick veneer this building is going to pale in comparison to its neighbors, but I still think this is a pretty solid effort. We'll see how it turns out.
     
     
  #15548  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 1:09 AM
Busy Bee's Avatar
Busy Bee Busy Bee is online now
Show me the blueprints
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: on the artistic spectrum
Posts: 10,302
Who are you people kidding? If that thing is built to what is shown in those drawings it's going to be hideous. Stop with the benefit of the doubt routine. Look at that elevation and tell me your gut isn't saying it's butt ugly. I mean honestly. It's a pretty sad reality when this is what passes for tasteful and appropriate in such a context. The asphalt shingled mansard and stucco and the palladian window are such lovely touches aren't they? They fit right in with the absurd proportions and insulting mimicry that looks to be the best effort of an 8th grader.

This thing next to the neighbors is sort of everything one needs to know about the state of our species LOL.
__________________
Everything new is old again

There is no goodness in him, and his power to convince people otherwise is beyond understanding
     
     
  #15549  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 1:57 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Who are you people kidding? If that thing is built to what is shown in those drawings it's going to be hideous. Stop with the benefit of the doubt routine. Look at that elevation and tell me your gut isn't saying it's butt ugly. I mean honestly. It's a pretty sad reality when this is what passes for tasteful and appropriate in such a context. The asphalt shingled mansard and stucco and the palladian window are such lovely touches aren't they? They fit right in with the absurd proportions and insulting mimicry that looks to be the best effort of an 8th grader.

This thing next to the neighbors is sort of everything one needs to know about the state of our species LOL.
Have you seen the shit they've been putting up just to the south in mantua the past decade or so? A bunch of boxes covered in cheap paneling. And Mantua is more established and has more demand than Parkside.

Granted, this house will sit between two of the most handsome buildings in Philly, but have you been around this neighborhood? The two streets to south of this street are, no joke, roughly 60-75% vacant, trash strewn, lots. Honestly, I don't even understand what you expect in a location like this. You expect top notch materials here? You're out of your mind.

This building exceeds my modest expectations. I'm honestly just happy stuff is happening here. This neighborhood is full of incredible buildings and for decades we've been losing a lot of them. Maybe somewhere down the line we'll add some new architectural gems to parkside. For now though, I'm mostly just happy projects like this should stabilize the neighborhood and we won't lose any more of the incredible historic housing stock that remains.

Last edited by allovertown; May 8, 2021 at 2:08 AM.
     
     
  #15550  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 3:46 AM
PurpleWhiteOut PurpleWhiteOut is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 697
I agree. The fact of the matter is this has been a vacant lot for 50 years. Nothing can ever be built to match the grandeur of Parkside Ave, so the best we can ask for is a building with similar mass and maybe design homages like the curved windows and the top peak. If you look at it as a new building designed to compliment its context rather than a building designed to compete (because nothing can) it really could come out good. It's not a total F U to the surroundings and isn't too caught up on replicating what's around it either because a failed replica could be even worse but it at least knows where it is. There are some things that COULD be better, but with budget constraints and risk this is surprisingly a lot better than some things that get built in hotter areas. Either way we'll have to see how it comes out in real life since it's a pretty basic elevation sketch.

Last edited by PurpleWhiteOut; May 8, 2021 at 3:58 AM.
     
     
  #15551  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 11:43 AM
Frontst17 Frontst17 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 279
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
It does seem like a lot of grocery stores in CC, but then there are something like 10K housing units under construction or near construction in greater CC, so if many of those units have a food store within walking distance, that would be great.
How far behind Chicago is Philly for the number of living units in the central district? I wonder if Philly will ever be #2 behind NYC.
Philly has been #2 i believe in terms of population
     
     
  #15552  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 12:27 PM
mcgrath618's Avatar
mcgrath618 mcgrath618 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Clark Park, Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 3,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frontst17 View Post
Philly has been #2 i believe in terms of population
This is correct. Center City is the densest urban core outside of Manhattan, at least according to the 2010 census.
__________________
Philadelphia Transportation Thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=164129
     
     
  #15553  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 12:32 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut View Post
I agree. The fact of the matter is this has been a vacant lot for 50 years. Nothing can ever be built to match the grandeur of Parkside Ave, so the best we can ask for is a building with similar mass and maybe design homages like the curved windows and the top peak. If you look at it as a new building designed to compliment its context rather than a building designed to compete (because nothing can) it really could come out good. It's not a total F U to the surroundings and isn't too caught up on replicating what's around it either because a failed replica could be even worse but it at least knows where it is. There are some things that COULD be better, but with budget constraints and risk this is surprisingly a lot better than some things that get built in hotter areas. Either way we'll have to see how it comes out in real life since it's a pretty basic elevation sketch.
Nothing is better than something. Let the lot sit fallow until the neighborhood can support higher quality.

I agree with BusyBee. It's hideous.
     
     
  #15554  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 1:30 PM
eixample eixample is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 439
I agree that the Parkside design stinks, but faux historical architecture we have in places like Society Hill with "design homages" is often junky too. Why should we care if this building mimics its neighbors? Couldn't this property just be brick fronted with a mansard roof at the same height of its neighbors and with quality windows, doors, iron work, etc. and that be enough? I'd rather it blend in and be anonymous more than anything.
     
     
  #15555  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 1:46 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by eixample View Post
I agree that the Parkside design stinks, but faux historical architecture we have in places like Society Hill with "design homages" is often junky too. Why should we care if this building mimics its neighbors? Couldn't this property just be brick fronted with a mansard roof at the same height of its neighbors and with quality windows, doors, iron work, etc. and that be enough? I'd rather it blend in and be anonymous more than anything.
Because it's gonna have vinyl windows with mullions between the glass, stucco where-ever you don't see brick, fake stone, etc. It's gonna look like Snooky had a baby right next to the park.

Have we not learned our lesson? Philly can support better even in "questionable" locations.

We don't even know the economics of this. Don't assume that because something is in a poorer neighborhood that it is a less profitable investment for developers.

In fact, CAP rates are higher on multi-family in Philadelphia in poor neighborhoods than they are in rich neighborhoods. Lots of smaller companies are showing you can do high quality projects in iffy locations.
     
     
  #15556  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 2:37 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Nothing is better than something. Let the lot sit fallow until the neighborhood can support higher quality.

I agree with BusyBee. It's hideous.
There are more vacant lots in this area than homes. How is the neighborhood ever going to support higher quality if that doesn't start to change?

Nothing is better then something? This neighborhood has gotten nothing for half a century. So far that tactic hasn't worked out great.
     
     
  #15557  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 5:19 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
There are more vacant lots in this area than homes. How is the neighborhood ever going to support higher quality if that doesn't start to change?

Nothing is better then something? This neighborhood has gotten nothing for half a century. So far that tactic hasn't worked out great.
You could say that about many hot areas of Philly (not that Parkside is hot) but those other areas might have some nice old buildings, but rarely do you see a strip of such large grandiose beauties as these. This is really one of Philly's nicest several block long section of intact gems. Kid gloves are needed, regardless of what the clowns at City hall might say. To me, this is one of those lay down in front of the bulldozer situations.

If one the originals was in really sad, sick shape, but the shell was more or less there, would you be ok with pulling it down and putting this mockery? If not then it shouldn't be built here.

Not all the old buildings in that neighborhood are anywhere close to being of the quality of what's right on Parkside Ave. I can easily believe that there are many, many empty lots within a couple blocks, and if so, that means many opportunities to build the usual Philly, less then satisfying, low level crap infill housing there, away from the limelight. That existing lot doesn't seem like such an eyesore. In some locations the rule should be---build beauty or don't build at all. Especially if there are other lots in plenty one can build on.
     
     
  #15558  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 5:26 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,623
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
This is correct. Center City is the densest urban core outside of Manhattan, at least according to the 2010 census.
That's good to hear. I was asking about population in the central business district or whatever term applies. Chicago was/is #2 and Philly was 3rd. Chicago has built a good number of tall residential stuff, but if Philly is now around 10K in a year, we won't be 3 for very long. NYC/Manhattan is divided up into several different sections.
     
     
  #15559  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 6:27 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
You could say that about many hot areas of Philly (not that Parkside is hot) but those other areas might have some nice old buildings, but rarely do you see a strip of such large grandiose beauties as these. This is really one of Philly's nicest several block long section of intact gems. Kid gloves are needed, regardless of what the clowns at City hall might say. To me, this is one of those lay down in front of the bulldozer situations.

If one the originals was in really sad, sick shape, but the shell was more or less there, would you be ok with pulling it down and putting this mockery? If not then it shouldn't be built here.

Not all the old buildings in that neighborhood are anywhere close to being of the quality of what's right on Parkside Ave. I can easily believe that there are many, many empty lots within a couple blocks, and if so, that means many opportunities to build the usual Philly, less then satisfying, low level crap infill housing there, away from the limelight. That existing lot doesn't seem like such an eyesore. In some locations the rule should be---build beauty or don't build at all. Especially if there are other lots in plenty one can build on.
I absolutely would be against demolishing an intact parkside ave home for something like this.

But this isn't demolishing anything it's building on an empty lot. And those are two very different propositions for me.

It's all well and good to stand in front of a bulldozer, but if there are no funds to fix the house and no market for the house to justify the investment, any type of long term victory is impossible. No matter how many bulldozers you stand in front of, every beautiful house in parkside is endangered due to the current state of this neighborhood.

Something has to get the ball rolling here. And while I totally understand the thinking to get that ball rolling on a less prominent lot that isn't on parkside ave, the whole reason this development is happening is because it's on parkside. Parkside ave is the only street in the area that isn't mostly vacant lots. It's a real tough proposition to build on a street that is 70% vacant. And even parkside after you go a couple blocks over from this proposed development is a total mess.
     
     
  #15560  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 6:36 PM
eixample eixample is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Because it's gonna have vinyl windows with mullions between the glass, stucco where-ever you don't see brick, fake stone, etc. It's gonna look like Snooky had a baby right next to the park.

Have we not learned our lesson? Philly can support better even in "questionable" locations.

We don't even know the economics of this. Don't assume that because something is in a poorer neighborhood that it is a less profitable investment for developers.

In fact, CAP rates are higher on multi-family in Philadelphia in poor neighborhoods than they are in rich neighborhoods. Lots of smaller companies are showing you can do high quality projects in iffy locations.
I misread this thread earlier and thought the historical commission had to give its approval. So basically your and my comments are irrelevant since the owners can do what they want as long as it is economical and within zoning. I really don't get how you can expect property owners to "let the lot sit fallow" (but keep on paying taxes) until they can build a gorgeous carbon copy of the other houses on this strip or some other architectural marvel.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Global Projects & Construction > General Development
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:29 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.