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  #201  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2021, 11:09 PM
Camelback Camelback is offline
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So we have determined that in addition to the massive Country Music Industry located in Nashville, Nashville is known for:

Vanderbilt University
Medical/healthcare industry
Food (hot chicken)
Entertainment - live music
Nightlife bar scene - bachelorette parties
Civil Rights history
Rapid urban growth - fast growing population

Sounds like a fun and dynamic city!
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  #202  
Old Posted Jul 21, 2021, 11:39 PM
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^Also, it's Tennessee's capital city.
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  #203  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 12:59 AM
jkc2j jkc2j is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Perhaps I'm off base here, but I get the impression sometimes that much of the criticism Nashville gets is a result of the fact that it no longer fits into the box it's long time critics have always put it in, and want to keep it in. The criticisms of Nashville I often heard growing up was that it wasn't 'chic' enough, and was behind the times, and generic, and too sprawly and, of course, that it was just another 'backwards southern hick town.' I grew up hearing that shit. Hell, when I moved to Chicago in high school, some classmates asked me if I had electricity and rode a horse to school back home. That was in the mid-90's.

But now that it has a unique identity, and is attracting upscale brands and Michelin starred chefs, and building flashy skyscrapers and urban neighborhoods, many of those same people seem even more disgusted with it. Now those same people criticize it for being supposedly "inauthentic," because the girl that never had a seat at the cool kids table suddenly is getting a lot of positive attention. 'She's not the hot one, I'm supposed to be the hot one!' But is that an example of Nashville being "inauthentic?" Or is it an example simply of it evolving, as every city everywhere does, all the time?

I mean don't get me wrong. There are certainly elements of the city's image these days that are driven by marketing to a certain extent. And yeah, I'd be the first to admit that some of the shit you'll see down on Broadway is incredibly corny and contrived. But since when is a city not allowed to market toward and cater to the demands of tourists? Since when is a 220 year old city of two million people suddenly entirely "inauthentic" because on a single three block stretch of a single street in a single neighborhood there are a few more honky tonk bars than there used to be, or because a local dish is now more well known than it used to be? Are Philly Cheesesteaks no longer authentic because you can find them at gas stations in Alaska instead of only on Philly's Southside? Or maybe we're just going to pretend there was no marketing involved there? Is New Orleans no longer authentic because tourists from North Dakota wear Mardi Gras beads at Silky O'Sullivan's in mid-July? What other city is held to this lofty and bizarre a standard?
I think you just hit the nail on the head. It seems a lot of people got caught up and are hanging on to the perception of what they thought Nashville was and are critiquing based on that. Most probably thought Nashville was some small hick town where everyone listened to country music every day and drove pick up trucks to the office (though some do, it is the south after all) not realizing it's an actual city with people of different walks of life and cultures and their perception has been dashed because they were expecting the former.

Also, as mentioned I believe there's a hint of jealousy as well, essentially a "What's so great about Nashville? My city is better" type of thing. I remember when the city first proposed the National Museum of African American music downtown there was a ton a negative feedback from people in other cities saying "Why Nashville?" "They're not deserving of that." and "City x,y,z deserves it more because they're just a country music city" etc. Like I mentioned before, I know of no other city that receives that type of response for wanting to grow and promote itself.

Last edited by jkc2j; Jul 22, 2021 at 2:51 AM.
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  #204  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 1:04 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by jkc2j View Post
Like I mentioned before, I know of no other city that receives that type of response for wanted to grow and promote itself.
Austin is the same, IMO. Both cities are largely hype machines.

Also, it has nothing to do with "a city growing and promoting itself". Every city has a growth/promotion arm.
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  #205  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 1:13 AM
jkc2j jkc2j is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Austin is the same, IMO. Both cities are largely hype machines.

Also, it has nothing to do with "a city growing and promoting itself". Every city has a growth/promotion arm.
Right, I get that. What I meant was the rhetoric that's spouted, claims of inauthentitcity etc.
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  #206  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 1:16 AM
jkc2j jkc2j is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Austin is the same, IMO. Both cities are largely hype machines.

Also, it has nothing to do with "a city growing and promoting itself". Every city has a growth/promotion arm.
Right, I get that. What I meant was the rhetoric that's spouted, claims of inauthentitcity etc. My argument would be if Nashville’s "inauthentic" then every heavily promoted tourist city in inauthentic. Las Vegas, Orlando, Austin etc. What makes Nashville different and worth more criticism than any of these types of cities? Heck, look at New York as an example. Times Square in the 80's and 90's is completely different than it is today, they've spruced it up, lots of chain restaurants, billboards, essentially a shrine to American capitalism, yet I never hear it being touted as "inauthentic".

Last edited by jkc2j; Jul 22, 2021 at 1:37 AM.
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  #207  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 1:36 AM
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To be fair, Las Vegas is both authentic and also a fantasy hype machine, because that is literally what it is, and also how it markets itself.
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  #208  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 1:55 AM
jkc2j jkc2j is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Isn't hot fried chicken/fish more or less a thing in black neighborhoods from coast to coast?

In a historically black area of Brooklyn, I've eaten pan-fried whiting, served spicy, with cayenne-vinegar blend, on white bread. The same place also has pan fried chicken, served spicy, on white bread. I'm pretty sure I've seen this in other black neighborhoods, in other cities. Definitely in DC and Detroit. There are "you buy, we fry" joints, with all kinds of seasoning blends, all over.

The "country-western" association is equally odd. Nashville has never been country or western. No cowboy wear, no honky tonks. It's obviously southeastern, not southwestern, another Raleigh, not another Amarillo. It's always been a center for music, but the industry (and its stars) are primarily in LA these days.

So, yeah, it's a triumph of marketing. And has been amazingly successful, especially among white Midwestern women. Lots of people I know in MI head to Nashville for party weekends, which is a very recent thing. But no way in hell are these same women going to 7 mile road in Detroit for hot fried chicken/fish.
I've traveled quite a bit, and have never heard locals in other cities claim hot chicken or hot fish. Unless, there's some record of that Nashville still holds claim as the originator, though I don't doubt there could have been some variations in different places as Black folk tend to like our food spicy, especially in the south.

Last edited by jkc2j; Jul 22, 2021 at 2:58 AM.
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  #209  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:27 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
But now that it has a unique identity, and is attracting upscale brands and Michelin starred chefs, and building flashy skyscrapers and urban neighborhoods, many of those same people seem even more disgusted with it.
This is correct. When I post my photos of Nashville on other forums, the people from the Great Lakes region (especially Cleveland) are incredibly disgusted by it.

American tastes have completely turned away from people taking pride in art museums, symphonies, zoos, and historic architecture. People no longer take unstaged photos of themselves and their friends at parties. Everything now is staged fun and "lifestyle" for an audience of millions on Instagram.

Andy Warhol anticipated all of this 50 years ago, but fittingly, his home city has been ignored by the Instagram hordes. Instead of pointing their camera phones at that city - one with an exceptionally authentic vernacular - they're pointing it at the incoherent money-grab called Nashville.

Here are some photos I took in 2016, when things started getting seriously weird and seriously ugly:






From 2019:


Marketing???



































Yee-Haw!






















Last edited by jmecklenborg; Jul 22, 2021 at 4:27 AM.
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  #210  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Isn't hot fried chicken/fish more or less a thing in black neighborhoods from coast to coast?

In a historically black area of Brooklyn, I've eaten pan-fried whiting, served spicy, with cayenne-vinegar blend, on white bread. The same place also has pan fried chicken, served spicy, on white bread. I'm pretty sure I've seen this in other black neighborhoods, in other cities. Definitely in DC and Detroit. There are "you buy, we fry" joints, with all kinds of seasoning blends, all over.

The "country-western" association is equally odd. Nashville has never been country or western. No cowboy wear, no honky tonks. It's obviously southeastern, not southwestern, another Raleigh, not another Amarillo. It's always been a center for music, but the industry (and its stars) are primarily in LA these days.

So, yeah, it's a triumph of marketing. And has been amazingly successful, especially among white Midwestern women. Lots of people I know in MI head to Nashville for party weekends, which is a very recent thing. But no way in hell are these same women going to 7 mile road in Detroit for hot fried chicken/fish.
Hot chicken in LA is everywhere it seems. Even in Van Nuys. It's also in the hipster areas like Echo Park.
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  #211  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 5:37 AM
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L41A L41A is offline
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Exactly!

While some are trying to diminish Nashville, it's actually highlighting what's good about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelback View Post
So we have determined that in addition to the massive Country Music Industry located in Nashville, Nashville is known for:

Vanderbilt University
Medical/healthcare industry
Food (hot chicken)
Entertainment - live music
Nightlife bar scene - bachelorette parties
Civil Rights history
Rapid urban growth - fast growing population

Sounds like a fun and dynamic city!
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  #212  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 2:24 PM
BigDipper 80 BigDipper 80 is offline
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I think a lot of the "hate" Nashville gets from urbanists (which is an admittedly very small portion of the population) is really envy tinged with a bit of confusion. I don't have any particular beef with Nashville and think it's a perfectly nice New South city, but I think it faces more wrath than other cities in the New South precisely because it's a destination city in ways that Charlotte or Houston aren't. Plenty of New Yorkers have moved to Charlotte to keep working in the banking industry, but that's more a career move than a lifestyle move. I've heard a number of anecdotes from people practically begging to get transferred to Nashville. I think to some people, that just seems like a weird transition. Nashville doesn't have the beaches or weather or architecture or culture of other destination cities like Boston or San Diego. Again, this isn't a specific knock on Nashville, just an acknowledgement that it doesn't have a lot of the traditional amenities that have really drawn people to various cities for "non-career reasons".

And I think urbanists are just sick of walkable, well-built cities still being passed up yet again due to what they perceive as being a lot of marketing hype. Take Louisville, for example. It's home of one of the most famous sporting events in the world and is the perfect gateway into Bourbon Country, but the neighborhood around Churchill Downs is a dump, there aren't hundreds of hotel rooms being thrown up constantly to support people heading out to Bardstown and Frankfort, and vast swaths of the city languish in the typical Rust Belt fashion. Granted, I think hitching your horse (no pun intended) to tourism is always a bit of a risky bet, and Louisville has plenty of gorgeous, stable neighborhoods filled with people passionate about their city, but I can understand why some people would wish places like that would get more recognition than they currently do.

All that said, I'm really not complaining that Nashvegas is sucking up all of the bachelorette parties. Y'all can keep that nonsense.
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  #213  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 2:37 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Isn't hot fried chicken/fish more or less a thing in black neighborhoods from coast to coast?

In a historically black area of Brooklyn, I've eaten pan-fried whiting, served spicy, with cayenne-vinegar blend, on white bread. The same place also has pan fried chicken, served spicy, on white bread. I'm pretty sure I've seen this in other black neighborhoods, in other cities. Definitely in DC and Detroit. There are "you buy, we fry" joints, with all kinds of seasoning blends, all over.

The "country-western" association is equally odd. Nashville has never been country or western. No cowboy wear, no honky tonks. It's obviously southeastern, not southwestern, another Raleigh, not another Amarillo. It's always been a center for music, but the industry (and its stars) are primarily in LA these days.

So, yeah, it's a triumph of marketing. And has been amazingly successful, especially among white Midwestern women. Lots of people I know in MI head to Nashville for party weekends, which is a very recent thing. But no way in hell are these same women going to 7 mile road in Detroit for hot fried chicken/fish.
Cooking with spicy peppers isn't really that common in black American cuisines, but many people might use hot sauce as a condiment. The Nashville hot chicken definitely seems unique in that regard.

Last edited by iheartthed; Jul 22, 2021 at 2:52 PM.
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  #214  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 2:47 PM
jkc2j jkc2j is offline
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Originally Posted by BigDipper 80 View Post
I think a lot of the "hate" Nashville gets from urbanists (which is an admittedly very small portion of the population) is really envy tinged with a bit of confusion. I don't have any particular beef with Nashville and think it's a perfectly nice New South city, but I think it faces more wrath than other cities in the New South precisely because it's a destination city in ways that Charlotte or Houston aren't. Plenty of New Yorkers have moved to Charlotte to keep working in the banking industry, but that's more a career move than a lifestyle move. I've heard a number of anecdotes from people practically begging to get transferred to Nashville. I think to some people, that just seems like a weird transition. Nashville doesn't have the beaches or weather or architecture or culture of other destination cities like Boston or San Diego. Again, this isn't a specific knock on Nashville, just an acknowledgement that it doesn't have a lot of the traditional amenities that have really drawn people to various cities for "non-career reasons".

And I think urbanists are just sick of walkable, well-built cities still being passed up yet again due to what they perceive as being a lot of marketing hype. Take Louisville, for example. It's home of one of the most famous sporting events in the world and is the perfect gateway into Bourbon Country, but the neighborhood around Churchill Downs is a dump, there aren't hundreds of hotel rooms being thrown up constantly to support people heading out to Bardstown and Frankfort, and vast swaths of the city languish in the typical Rust Belt fashion. Granted, I think hitching your horse (no pun intended) to tourism is always a bit of a risky bet, and Louisville has plenty of gorgeous, stable neighborhoods filled with people passionate about their city, but I can understand why some people would wish places like that would get more recognition than they currently do.

All that said, I'm really not complaining that Nashvegas is sucking up all of the bachelorette parties. Y'all can keep that nonsense.
You've made some good points. While Nashville may not have a lot of what traditionally has made cities desirable, it does have things that a lot of cities don't especially in it's size, one is an identity. The city has managed to capitalize on it's country music brand which drew in the tourists who then realized, Nashville isn't a bunch a toothless rednecks living in mobile homes and riding pick up trucks, which in the past this sort of stereotype hindered it's growth. Not too many cities it's size have it's combination of live, work, play environment that's not on the coasts and still relatively affordable, which in turn has contributed to a lot of it's current growth.

Last edited by jkc2j; Jul 22, 2021 at 5:59 PM.
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  #215  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:01 PM
BigDipper 80 BigDipper 80 is offline
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^ I think this "reputation inversion" also annoys the hell out of a certain subset of people (particularly in the rust belt). It admittedly gets old fast to hear "blue state coastal elites" ranting about how much they hate red states but then having bachelorette parties in Nashville. It's obviously a welcoming city like most urban areas are in the country, but the niceties that are afforded to Nashville by the cultural tastemakers generally don't get applied to the Birminghams or Fort Waynes of the world. Nashville is very lucky to have escaped that rut where it gets to be "Nashville" and unassociated with Tennessee politics in a way that, like, Columbus can't escape being associated with "dumb Ohio hicks" on a national level.
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  #216  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:01 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Nowadays, of course, it's known for it's great nightlife that extends well, WELL beyond live country music, which is basically confined to three blocks on Broadway, and also for it's burgeoning culinary scene.
LOL.

Nashville is a beautiful city. "Nightlife" and "culinary" scene are overstatements.

Anyways.

The Cultural Literati in Tennessee are Southern Baptists. It has the stuffiest most insufferable sort of cultural norms of any "big" city I've been to. There's a statue of Billy Graham in the center of it's downtown, for god's sake.

Anyways, for this reason alone, I could never live there. It's a difficult place to be anything other than a cis hetero white person. Even in Davidson County, which as Tennessee's "most liberal" county is probably one of the most conservative urban counties in the country.

All that aside, Nashville does have some of the most beautiful close in neighborhoods I've ever seen in an American city. Belle Meade is drop dead.
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  #217  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:12 PM
jkc2j jkc2j is offline
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
LOL.

Nashville is a beautiful city. "Nightlife" and "culinary" scene are overstatements.

Anyways.

The Cultural Literati in Tennessee are Southern Baptists. It has the stuffiest most insufferable sort of cultural norms of any "big" city I've been to. There's a statue of Billy Graham in the center of it's downtown, for god's sake.

Anyways, for this reason alone, I could never live there. It's a difficult place to be anything other than a cis hetero white person. Even in Davidson County, which as Tennessee's "most liberal" county is probably one of the most conservative urban counties in the country.

All that aside, Nashville does have some of the most beautiful close in neighborhoods I've ever seen in an American city. Belle Meade is drop dead.
Umm.. that statue of Billy Graham no longer exists btw. Shows you probably hadn't been here in a long time.
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  #218  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by BigDipper 80 View Post
I think a lot of the "hate" Nashville gets from urbanists (which is an admittedly very small portion of the population) is really envy tinged with a bit of confusion. I don't have any particular beef with Nashville and think it's a perfectly nice New South city, but I think it faces more wrath than other cities in the New South precisely because it's a destination city in ways that Charlotte or Houston aren't. Plenty of New Yorkers have moved to Charlotte to keep working in the banking industry, but that's more a career move than a lifestyle move. I've heard a number of anecdotes from people practically begging to get transferred to Nashville. I think to some people, that just seems like a weird transition. Nashville doesn't have the beaches or weather or architecture or culture of other destination cities like Boston or San Diego. Again, this isn't a specific knock on Nashville, just an acknowledgement that it doesn't have a lot of the traditional amenities that have really drawn people to various cities for "non-career reasons".

And I think urbanists are just sick of walkable, well-built cities still being passed up yet again due to what they perceive as being a lot of marketing hype. Take Louisville, for example. It's home of one of the most famous sporting events in the world and is the perfect gateway into Bourbon Country, but the neighborhood around Churchill Downs is a dump, there aren't hundreds of hotel rooms being thrown up constantly to support people heading out to Bardstown and Frankfort, and vast swaths of the city languish in the typical Rust Belt fashion. Granted, I think hitching your horse (no pun intended) to tourism is always a bit of a risky bet, and Louisville has plenty of gorgeous, stable neighborhoods filled with people passionate about their city, but I can understand why some people would wish places like that would get more recognition than they currently do.

All that said, I'm really not complaining that Nashvegas is sucking up all of the bachelorette parties. Y'all can keep that nonsense.
Well said... I think this is a very fair and understandable take.
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  #219  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:15 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Cooking with spicy peppers isn't really that common in black American cuisines, but many people might use hot sauce as a condiment. The Nashville hot chicken definitely seems unique in that regard.
Yeah, I'm not saying that Nashville hot chicken is indistinguishable from fried chicken nationwide, but it's very common to see pan-fried, spicy chicken/fish, served on white bread, in black neighborhoods, nationwide. It isn't specifically a Nashville thing. So it's odd that the local preparation became a Nashville marketing thing, rather than a black marketing thing.

For example, in DC, I remember fried chicken/fish joints in black neighborhoods using mambo sauce, a spicy local concoction that uses cayenne pepper. So why not "DC hot chicken"? I've seen variants in NYC, Philly, Detroit and Chicago. It's definitely a thing, even if the ingredients and prep vary.
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  #220  
Old Posted Jul 22, 2021, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
This is correct. When I post my photos of Nashville on other forums, the people from the Great Lakes region (especially Cleveland) are incredibly disgusted by it.

Here are some photos I took in 2016, when things started getting seriously weird and seriously ugly:
Ah, how nice of you! Encase anyone had any doubt of your real intentions in this thread, you decided to out yourself as a troll with a bone to pick by putting together a smattering of your greatest hits of the most extreme versions of neighborhoods in transition combined, for some reason, photos of burnt out houses and that weird statue some dipshit erected on his private property out in Williamson County. Great job.
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