Transit oriented development in Canada

[esquire]

^ So is Northlands/Expo site/KDays completely disappearing?

[Coldrsx]

The Coliseum will come down.

Expo will remain.

Northlands race track to be redeveloped.

K-Days will need a new home in 20yrs.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ So is Northlands/Expo site/KDays completely disappearing?

Northlands is essentially dead at this point. The coliseum is being demolished as there is no consideration for the re-use, that will be one of the transit oriented areas. I see that as the second one as the site south will be easier to get going. The old race track, barns and spectrum will be gone shortly (within 2 years), that will be the first phase of development as I understand it. That phase will wrap all the way around the north edge of Borden Park. K-days has maybe 5-10 years left at site then that'll have to go somewhere else. The Expo Centre is Edmonton's best large convention and trade show facility and will remain for those types of events.

[esquire]

^ Makes sense. The timing is right to redevelop such a large site located along transit and close to downtown.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Yes

We can expect high density in these areas.

Grade would need to substantially rise. The Stampede site is likely the most flood exposed in the city.

As others have stated, Calgary has so many other parcels to redevelop before the Stampede grounds become desirable

[Doug]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Northlands is essentially dead at this point. The coliseum is being demolished as there is no consideration for the re-use, that will be one of the transit oriented areas. I see that as the second one as the site south will be easier to get going. The old race track, barns and spectrum will be gone shortly (within 2 years), that will be the first phase of development as I understand it. That phase will wrap all the way around the north edge of Borden Park. K-days has maybe 5-10 years left at site then that'll have to go somewhere else. The Expo Centre is Edmonton's best large convention and trade show facility and will remain for those types of events.

Edmonton hasn't made much progress redeveloping the area around Stadium Station or the wasteland around Belvedere. Colesium is at best only a slightly more appealing location.

[Coldrsx]

That's the issue...well one of them, in that we have 4-5 major TODs competing for time and resources.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by Doug

Edmonton hasn't made much progress redeveloping the area around Stadium Station or the wasteland around Belvedere. Colesium is at best only a slightly more appealing location.

Stadium has been slow out of the gate like most TOD's in Edmonton but has made progress.. the Edgewater development just south of the station is one of the largest residential complexes built in the past while with two towers and two low rise buildings totaling about 700 units, The Muttart development looks like it's about to get going with the first two buildings and a direct connection to the station and there are several other smaller buildings proposed in the area. That's why they'll likely start at the SW corner of the Northlands site because it's closer to Stadium with all the amenities and infrastructure already in place. The coliseum site will be more difficult and is probably a ways further out.

[mintzilla]

even over the course of 25 years i dont see how there will be enough demand for that may TOD's in Edmonton. I fear a lot of those lots i will sit as barren wastelands for a long ass time.

[ssiguy]

There is a definate downside with a lot of 'transit oriented development', it can make the transit commute much worse for the people who actually rely on transit. In Vancouver's housing along the transit corridors is even more expensive than normal. This is because the cities wanted the transit lines but unfortunately also viewed them as revenue makers and that's when the trouble starts. Thousands have been 'renovicted' or forced out of their rentals to make way for condo flipping. The Canada Line saw homes along the route were flipped many times between when they the line was announced and when it was completed. Marine Gateway made a big deal out of how quicklly they sold their homes due to it being transit friendly but of course didn't mention that in one of the buildings 220 units were sold but to only 80 differrent buyers.

The City of Burnaby actually plans on tearing down 1500 older rental units right at Metrotown Station over the next 20 years so they can be transformed into higher density condos throwing up to 3,000 renters out of their homes. In Coquitlam even the Mayor has come out and said that the huge condo developments along the new SkyTrain route has forced hundreds of lower income people out of their housing. Surrey's Whalley residents have suffered the same fate. This is also why there is so much condo building being done at Brentwood, Metrotown, and Coquitlam Centre and far less in Vancouver itself...………..they don't have an empty house tax.

The SkyTrain certainly helps many but surprisingly makes the commute of the people that depend on transit much more difficult as they are FORCED to flee further from the actual transit lines which were suppose to help them in the first place. Vancouver offers a cautionary tale...……..when TOD is viewed more as a revenue as opposed to an transportation resource, it will benefit the people the most who need it the least.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Stadium has been slow out of the gate like most TOD's in Edmonton but has made progress.. the Edgewater development just south of the station is one of the largest residential complexes built in the past while with two towers and two low rise buildings totaling about 700 units, The Muttart development looks like it's about to get going with the first two buildings and a direct connection to the station and there are several other smaller buildings proposed in the area. That's why they'll likely start at the SW corner of the Northlands site because it's closer to Stadium with all the amenities and infrastructure already in place. The coliseum site will be more difficult and is probably a ways further out.

The first building around Stadium was some pink stucco condos that went up in 1992. Maybe the area is finally gaining momentum.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There is a definate downside with a lot of 'transit oriented development', it can make the transit commute much worse for the people who actually rely on transit. In Vancouver's housing along the transit corridors is even more expensive than normal. This is because the cities wanted the transit lines but unfortunately also viewed them as revenue makers and that's when the trouble starts. Thousands have been 'renovicted' or forced out of their rentals to make way for condo flipping. The Canada Line saw homes along the route were flipped many times between when they the line was announced and when it was completed. Marine Gateway made a big deal out of how quicklly they sold their homes due to it being transit friendly but of course didn't mention that in one of the buildings 220 units were sold but to only 80 differrent buyers.

The City of Burnaby actually plans on tearing down 1500 older rental units right at Metrotown Station over the next 20 years so they can be transformed into higher density condos throwing up to 3,000 renters out of their homes. In Coquitlam even the Mayor has come out and said that the huge condo developments along the new SkyTrain route has forced hundreds of lower income people out of their housing. Surrey's whalley residents have suffered the same fate. This is also why there is so much condo building being done at Brentwood, Metrotown, and Coquitlam Centre and far less in Vancouver itself...………..they don't have an empty house tax.

The SkyTrain certainly helps many but surprisingly makes the commute of the people that depend on transit much more difficult as they are FORCED to flee further from the actual transit lines which were suppose to help them in the first place. Vancouver offers a cautionary tale...……..when TOD is viewed more as a revenue as opposed to an transportation resource, it will benefit the people the most who need it the least.

I agree. TOD should be encouraged, but it's also very important to mandate affordable housing within it, especially if cheap residential buildings are demolished for it like in Metrotown or Marine Gateway. We should also be expanding transit on a larger scale, beyond just TOD revenue-focused rapid transit lines, so more distant affordable regions become more accessible.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by Doug

The first building around Stadium was some pink stucco condos that went up in 1992. Maybe the area is finally gaining momentum.

LOL We called it the pink palace. 8 story with u/g parking across from the station, it's still good building despite how it looks and offers 3 bedroom suites which is rare here. Good investor units.

They've actually built quite a lot around the station since then. There are about 800 condo units in four low rise buildings built around Stadium Plaza shopping centre in the early to mid 2000's, CRHA built two mixed market 6 story buildings in the last five years, another 4 story apartment went up a few years ago and then of course the Edgewater development. Up next is the first phase of Muttart with two 6 story buildings and another 6 story building going a block over from the pink palace.

So really if you think about it there's actually been quite a lot of development in the area of the Stadium station in the last 20 years or so.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I agree. TOD should be encouraged, but it's also very important to mandate affordable housing within it, especially if cheap residential buildings are demolished for it like in Metrotown or Marine Gateway. We should also be expanding transit on a larger scale, beyond just TOD revenue-focused rapid transit lines, so more distant affordable regions become more accessible.

The new Oakridge development at the mall is another case of how not to do TOD. The huge number of condos that are going to be built will start at $1 million...……..they might as well make it a gated community. The units are already up for sale and selling fairly well as they first advertised in, of course, China.

Developments such as this especially around transit stations should not only include TRULY affordable rentals but the entire development should be geared strictly to lower/middle income people. The city could mandate that no one can buy a house unless they are a permanent resident/citizen, do not own any other properties and have to be first time buyers...……...totally within it's mandate as it is legal as it is the same criteria set out by CMHC for first time buyers.

Unfortunately our politicians see these developments are nothing more than revenue as opposed to housing for Vancouverites so such ideas will never see the light of day.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I agree. TOD should be encouraged, but it's also very important to mandate affordable housing within it, especially if cheap residential buildings are demolished for it like in Metrotown or Marine Gateway. We should also be expanding transit on a larger scale, beyond just TOD revenue-focused rapid transit lines, so more distant affordable regions become more accessible.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The new Oakridge development at the mall is another case of how not to do TOD. The huge number of condos that are going to be built will start at $1 million...……..they might as well make it a gated community. The units are already up for sale and selling fairly well as they first advertised in, of course, China.

Developments such as this especially around transit stations should not only include TRULY affordable rentals but the entire development should be geared strictly to lower/middle income people. The city could mandate that no one can buy a house unless they are a permanent resident/citizen, do not own any other properties and have to be first time buyers...……...totally within it's mandate as it is legal as it is the same criteria set out by CMHC for first time buyers.

Unfortunately our politicians see these developments are nothing more than revenue as opposed to housing for Vancouverites so such ideas will never see the light of day.

I agree with both of you.
Oakridge is such a massive failure from a affordability and a community-building standpoint. Some of the most important land in Vancouver, and they build a dozen luxury towers on it. Outside of some rich empty nesters, investors and the odd upper, upper middle class family, this massive project does nothing for the people of Vancouver and BC. It's the one project in Vancouver that I hope fails spectacularly, and a new project, more focused on the various levels on income in the region, rises in its wake.

[zahav]

There was only one site near Marine Gateway that was housing before redevelopment, the rest was ripe for redevelopment (one site was an old ICBC claims site with tons of unused land, one was a small commerical strip mall, and one was a Petro Canada). But yes I agree that if these huge developments take over existing cheap rental stock, they need to replace the units at whatever price they'd be had they not been torn down

[J.OT13]

I watched Koop's video and was reminded of how well we can see the location of subway stations along Toronto's Yonge Line just by looking at the tower clusters. That's something that is very noticeable in some pictures and when flying in and out of TO, though it seems limited to Yonge and a handful of stations down University.

• Video Link

Vancouver has this too along many parts of Expo and Millenium. Not as much along Canada thus far, with a few exceptions

Montreal has virtually none of this, but the entire city was built with impressive low and mid-rise density from the very start, so TOD wasn't necessary.

Edmonton has just about no TOD along the lines at this point in time, while Calgary seems to have a small handful.

Ottawa's Transitway had mixed results. A few stations in the east-end had developed TOD early on (from the rental tower cluster at Lees, heavily occupied by post-secondary students, condo towers at Hurdman, and a few mid-rise office buildings at Blair, though plenty of parking). Most towers along the Transitway already existed. In the west end, I can think of only one significant project at Westboro (Metropole, built in the early 2000s, the tallest residential up until recently). The original O-Train too (Trillium) had poor results, with two towers built along an infill station that ended up being canceled. When the Confederation Line concept was officially launched, that's when we witnessed some true TOD. Trillium's Carling has seen at least six new towers, with about a dozen more proposed. Several towers have been built and countless more proposed in the urban west-end (Bayview to Lincoln Fields (Confed) and Bayview to Carling (Trillium)). Blair has one completed tower, one u/c and a few more proposed. A new tower is proposed at Bayshore, with a direct link to the station. In 10 years, we might see a low-scale versions of the Yonge Line.

[ssiguy]

TOD can be great for transit usage and developing areas but can be disastrous for the people currently living along the corridor all depending on the city.

In Vancouver, which is held up as a model for TOD,has been a bonanza for the developers and real estate agents and hell on wheels for the citizens that already actually live there. Metrotown is a stellar example where all those lovely new condo towers have been built on previous rental buildings. The renter were unceremoniously thrown out, the building destroyed, and the expensive condos took their place. The City of Burnaby actually has in it's planning to evict up to 4,000 current renters in mid-rises in the area and replace them with condos over the next 20 years. Where those renters are suppose to go is treated with supreme indifference by the City. The Lougheed area is doing the exact same thing and all brought about by SkyTrain.

Not only is this morally reprehensible but is counter productive and leads to urban sprawl. This is because the people who have been evicted uniformly end up having to move further away from the transit stations and/or further into the Valley to find affordable housing..........the poorer people who rely on transit the most are being forced further away from it.

TOD can be a great thing all depending on where and whom you wish to benefit from the it and unfortunately Vancouver has long since decided that TOD is a great way to make money and push the poor further into the Valley where they belong.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

In Vancouver, which is held up as a model for TOD,has been a bonanza for the developers and real estate agents and hell on wheels for the citizens that already actually live there

Another problem with TOD in metro Vancouver is that the land along the key corridors and around hubs like Lougheed is owned by just a few companies. So we basically have a condo cartel in the city, plus TOD has been used as a quasi-NIMBY strategy for concentrating development in commercial areas and keeping it out of the neighbourhoods.

I think the metro Vancouver should up-zone large swaths of single family neighbourhoods around East Van and Burnaby and then add bus service, active transportation, or more as needed. Make it possible for smaller builders to put up 4-30 storey buildings away from the most expensive corridors and there will be more competition in the market.

[J.OT13]

That sounds like a pretty terrible approach in Vancouver. Disappointing to hear.

TOD over the last 10 years in Ottawa has mostly replaced parking lots, small light-industrial buildings and retail. There's some concern over traditional main streets losing some character with the arrival of more 8-12 storey condo towers (as opposed to the 1-3 floor retail strips).

Give credit where credit is due, the City of Ottawa is making a big push for more affordable housing along the O-Train corridor. The City and NCC will be calling for proposals to redevelop the land between the new library and Pimisi station. The new development must include at least 100 affordable units. A large parcel of land next to the future Gladstone station will be re-developed into a mixed income community that will include a significant affordable housing component and a new French public school. They've identified several other potential sites for affordable housing along the Trillium and Confederation lines.