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  #1381  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 4:52 AM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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5 years from now, two car families won't be buying gasoline commuter cars. A decade from now most two car families will have one EV. The real gap will be dealing with those who have just one vehicle (and require a lot of capability) or live in apartments. It's going to be a long time till we figure out the infrastructure problems on multi-unit dwellings for existing buildings.
I think the multi-unit problem is overblown, more fear than reality. Once you live with an EV for a while you calm down a little on charging all the time.

It's hard to get your head around until you own one, and live with it for at least a few months. Either way, we've solved electricity distribution, there's no mystery on how to do it.
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  #1382  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 6:10 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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I think the multi-unit problem is overblown, more fear than reality. Once you live with an EV for a while you calm down a little on charging all the time.

It's hard to get your head around until you own one, and live with it for at least a few months. Either way, we've solved electricity distribution, there's no mystery on how to do it.
Not so much a matter of being able to charge all the time as being able to charge at all. If you live in a condo and they don't have any chargers, you are charging away from home. That negates a major advantage of EVs: charging at home. And it adds time, over and above what a normal fill up would be.
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  #1383  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 6:19 AM
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Not so much a matter of being able to charge all the time as being able to charge at all. If you live in a condo and they don't have any chargers, you are charging away from home. That negates a major advantage of EVs: charging at home. And it adds time, over and above what a normal fill up would be.
I'm in a condo building. I never thought about it much but we have a lot of outlets in the parkade. I've had people visit with their Teslas on road trips and figured they'd have to hunt down a special charging station somewhere but it turned out to be unnecessary.

We'd have to pay to upgrade the electrical service for a lot of people to be able to charge their cars simultaneously or for fast charging but it's all exposed conduits and is not really a big deal. The power itself is very cheap in BC.

It's all actually much more convenient and practical than gasoline.
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  #1384  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 12:33 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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I'm in a condo building. I never thought about it much but we have a lot of outlets in the parkade. I've had people visit with their Teslas on road trips and figured they'd have to hunt down a special charging station somewhere but it turned out to be unnecessary.
Not the case with most condos though. At least here in Ontario. Most spaces don't have outlets. And installing them isn't usually cheap.

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We'd have to pay to upgrade the electrical service for a lot of people to be able to charge their cars simultaneously or for fast charging but it's all exposed conduits and is not really a big deal.
It isn't nearly as cheap as you think. Installing 50A service with individual meters in a 200 car underground garage isn't going to be cheap. Even with exposed conduits to run lines. We're talking thousands to > $10 000 (in extreme cases) per spot depending on the engineering involved to get power into the garage and what level of servicing is involved.

Setting up a handful of Level 2 chargers at some ratio is cheaper. Say 1 charger per 10 units. But since you can't have individuals pay the bills for those chargers, you have to get some charger company to set up more expensive charging stations which will have some kind of accounting system to bill users. You usually end up taking up common use parking too, creating additional headaches for the building. In most cases after all, the easiest thing to do is to put chargers at a set of visitor spots outside. But if residents start using these spots to regularly charge, you will have a lack of visitor parking.

Finally, there's the issue of getting most residents to pay for something like this. Even in a scenario where visitor spots are being wired up, it's going to be very tough fight to convince the majority of residents to pony up $1-2k in special assessments to install a charger. Or even the $20-30 per month tacked onto their condo fees. Most residents won't see the point of paying for something they won't be using anytime soon.

All this is why I've been very critical of government cutting cheques to mostly suburban EV buyers. That money would have done a hell of a lot more subsidizing charger installation in multi-unit dwellings. Every $5000 cheque given to an EV buyer is a charger that could service 10 residents in an apartment. That would have grown the EV market far more.
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  #1385  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 3:18 PM
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Are there that many people cross-shopping a Civic and a Model 3? I would think the Model 3 steals share from the Lexus IS, BMW 3, Mercedes C and Audi A4. Same price class and lowered cost of operation.

The real mass market EV isn't really here yet. But it will be. The VW ID3 is getting closer to this. Dunno what Canadian prices will be, but in Europe it's €30k, compared to €45k for the Model 3. VW should be able to get these down to a price level where they are only a few thousand more than a Civic or Corolla in a few years. Even a 20% premium on a Civic or Corolla or Escort will sell hard. Even with just 300km of range. Perfect city car.
There are lots of reasons why the transition to EV’s will take much longer. Now that we have established that Tesla’s are a luxury vehicle and not a mass market vehicle maybe we can get past the fanboy cheerleading and look at this objectively.

1. Non-luxury EV’s are not profitable from any manufacturer, beyond meeting government regulations for fleet economy there’s no incentive to produce more EV’s when you lose money on each one. Toyota estimates a production level of 50,000 units per year is required to justify a vehicle model, how many EV’s are attaining that production?

2. Reduced battery costs are not going to dramatically lower the cost of EV’s. Tesla’s says a replacement battery will retail for $3000-7,000, then what does it cost Tesla to put batteries into a new car, $2-3 thousand? If you cut that price in half, you reduce the selling price of a model 3 by what $2000? https://interestingengineering.com/t...ound-5000-7000

3. The cheapest Tesla EV is a small luxury car, which is a small and shrinking market segment. Tesla can grow by cannibalizing market share of other small luxury car manufacturers but overall this is a very small segment of the vehicle market that is becoming EV. The SUV market is where growth is and that market is dominated by ICE’s. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-u...sales-figures/

4. Government subsidies for EV’s will go away at some point as sales increase, everywhere that has happened we’ve seen a dramatic drop in sales, we need only look at Ontario to see the effect. It’s catch 22 for EV sales.

5. Lack of infrastructure for charging EV’s in condos and apartments will limit potential buyers as you have noted. We bought a new 2019 condo last year, no power at our underground parking stall.

Seems to me there are plenty of hurdles to overcome for EV’s. Personally I think a plug in hybrid vehicle is a better choice for the Canadian climate and geography, but if Warren wants to gift me his Tesla I’ll take it!

.....if the goal is to reduce greenhouse gas emissions as quickly and efficiently as possible, the numbers seem to say that hybrids can play a huge part in that reduction. Just because they don’t rely on messianic supplication or government subsidy is hardly a reason to ignore their contribution.


https://driving.ca/toyota/sienna/fea...rids-at-a-time
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  #1386  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 3:41 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
It isn't nearly as cheap as you think. Installing 50A service with individual meters in a 200 car underground garage isn't going to be cheap. Even with exposed conduits to run lines. We're talking thousands to > $10 000 (in extreme cases) per spot depending on the engineering involved to get power into the garage and what level of servicing is involved.
You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be, which was kind of my point in my previous reply. I agree with someone123.

Our condo has a few regular outlets that people have used, but we also installed a 40A circuit and an EV charger for around $2200 all in. It's shared use, $30/month per EV. It's a lot easier to ballpark the value than nickel and dime everybody.

We estimated the average EV driver would use about $20 of electricity per month, max. The extra $10 is to cover the installation over time, and there's a non-refundable $50 signup fee as well.

It's a deal all around, and now it's also a selling feature for the building.

Yes, getting L2 charging to every parking spot would be prohibitively expensive, but also unnecessary. Each EV driver uses that charger about 4-6 hours a week. We actually ran a second circuit since it was so cheap, and we can install another charger if that ever becomes necessary.

And of course there is public charging in places close by, some people are able to charge at work, and so on.

The downtown core of Vancouver has ONE gas station left, probably 8 pumps. Taking a quick count, there are 2 Tesla superchargers with a total of 30 plugs, and 2 DCFC locations with a total of 4 plugs.
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  #1387  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 3:50 PM
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Agree to disagree gord. As we discussed weeks back in this thread, fleets will soon drive the move to EVs as they become cheaper for deliveries and other vehicles on the road all day. That's where the cost/benefit of EVs shine.

Amazon's 100,000 Rivian delivery trucks for example.

Toyota Hybrids were adopted en masse by taxi companies, this will be similar.
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  #1388  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 4:20 PM
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I'm not really sure why some people revel in the idea that fossil fuels will be impossible to replace, as if it's preferable to have a world where we burn every last drop of oil while scorching the earth in the process, the only seeming benefit being to own the libs.
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  #1389  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be, which was kind of my point in my previous reply. I agree with someone123.

Our condo has a few regular outlets that people have used, but we also installed a 40A circuit and an EV charger for around $2200 all in. It's shared use, $30/month per EV. It's a lot easier to ballpark the value than nickel and dime everybody.

We estimated the average EV driver would use about $20 of electricity per month, max. The extra $10 is to cover the installation over time, and there's a non-refundable $50 signup fee as well.

It's a deal all around, and now it's also a selling feature for the building.

Yes, getting L2 charging to every parking spot would be prohibitively expensive, but also unnecessary. Each EV driver uses that charger about 4-6 hours a week. We actually ran a second circuit since it was so cheap, and we can install another charger if that ever becomes necessary.

And of course there is public charging in places close by, some people are able to charge at work, and so on.

The downtown core of Vancouver has ONE gas station left, probably 8 pumps. Taking a quick count, there are 2 Tesla superchargers with a total of 30 plugs, and 2 DCFC locations with a total of 4 plugs.
I can see supply and demand eventually sorting this out, although hardly cleanly or painlessly. Condos with more charging facilities will be more attractive to EV owners, and as more and more of those owners exist the demand for buildings with outlets (and thus the price they can charge) will increase. Thus it will be more attractive for buildings to spend the money to install them.

Street parking is the biggest issue I see. Particularly in other countries like in Europe where the parking is very limited, although there at least the car is probably less frequently used for long trips. If charging times can be brought down to reasonable levels at commercial chargers, this should be manageable.
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  #1390  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 4:34 PM
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I'm not really sure why some people revel in the idea that fossil fuels will be impossible to replace, as if it's preferable to have a world where we burn every last drop of oil while scorching the earth in the process, the only seeming benefit being to own the libs.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” ...
-Upton Sinclair
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  #1391  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 4:40 PM
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I'm not really sure why some people revel in the idea that fossil fuels will be impossible to replace, as if it's preferable to have a world where we burn every last drop of oil while scorching the earth in the process, the only seeming benefit being to own the libs.
In my mind fossil fuels can always be developed and used in more and more efficient ways. Technology is continuously being advanced to emit less CO2 and/or capture and store CO2 emissions. People hang on to the fact that at this point in time fossil fuels very reliant and adaptable for many uses... mind you, I am literally shopping online right now looking to purchase battery powered chainsaw, because it is more convenient for myself and my purposes.

Electric and fossil fuels are driving each other to 1. In fossil fuel case, be more environmentally efficient, and 2. Electric/battery powered, be more cost competitive and dependable.

They, for the foreseeable future, are both going to be used in conjunction for some time. It’s a matter of developing and consuming the fossil fuels in more and more efficient ways. I’m excited to see the ingenuity that comes because of these challenges.

This is my opinion of course, and I’m hoping I don’t get roasted by anyone. I care for the environment, I live in an environmentally conscious way, and support the continuous development of both fossil fuels and green energy, as I said before, they will help each other become more cost and environmentally friendly.
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  #1392  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 4:50 PM
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The oil industry will never go away completely. The need for energy dense fuels will persist for a long time in aviation and in the ocean shipping industry. In addition, oil is vital in the plastics manufacturing industry.

Having said this however, we should be as efficient and parsimonious in our oil extraction industry as possible. EVs for personal transportation is a no brainer. HSR should be encouraged for short to intermediate range intercity travel. Long distance travel will continue to be primarily via jet aircraft, but these can be made as fuel efficient as possible. Great strides are being made in plastic recycling (and I am not just talking about shopping bags here), but there will always be a need for new materials for the plastics industry as recycling can never supply 100% of the needs.

In the end, I would much prefer to keep as much oil in the ground as possible. I would much rather see a resource that will last us 50,000 years rather a resource that will be exhausted in 100 years...........
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  #1393  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 5:06 PM
milomilo milomilo is online now
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In my mind fossil fuels can always be developed and used in more and more efficient ways. Technology is continuously being advanced to emit less CO2 and/or capture and store CO2 emissions. People hang on to the fact that at this point in time fossil fuels very reliant and adaptable for many uses... mind you, I am literally shopping online right now looking to purchase battery powered chainsaw, because it is more convenient for myself and my purposes.

Electric and fossil fuels are driving each other to 1. In fossil fuel case, be more environmentally efficient, and 2. Electric/battery powered, be more cost competitive and dependable.

They, for the foreseeable future, are both going to be used in conjunction for some time. It’s a matter of developing and consuming the fossil fuels in more and more efficient ways. I’m excited to see the ingenuity that comes because of these challenges.

This is my opinion of course, and I’m hoping I don’t get roasted by anyone. I care for the environment, I live in an environmentally conscious way, and support the continuous development of both fossil fuels and green energy, as I said before, they will help each other become more cost and environmentally friendly.
Nothing to roast there, this is the rational viewpoint. Where we might differ is the speed to which this needs to happen and the amount of government intervention neccesary.

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The oil industry will never go away completely. The need for energy dense fuels will persist for a long time in aviation and in the ocean shipping industry. In addition, oil is vital in the plastics manufacturing industry.

Having said this however, we should be as efficient and parsimonious in our oil extraction industry as possible. EVs for personal transportation is a no brainer. HSR should be encouraged for short to intermediate range intercity travel. Long distance travel will continue to be primarily via jet aircraft, but these can be made as fuel efficient as possible. Great strides are being made in plastic recycling (and I am not just talking about shopping bags here), but there will always be a need for new materials for the plastics industry as recycling can never supply 100% of the needs.

In the end, I would much prefer to keep as much oil in the ground as possible. I would much rather see a resource that will last us 50,000 years rather a resource that will be exhausted in 100 years...........
Even if liquid hydrocarbon remains the only practical way to fuel certain processes (like air travel, space launch vehicles, the military), in some far flung future it could be preferable to generate that fuel synthetically using renewable energy or nuclear fission or fusion. Though natural gas might still be the best choice for petrochemical feedstock in far, far reduced quantities than is necessary today for fuel.
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  #1394  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 6:07 PM
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Agree to disagree gord. As we discussed weeks back in this thread, fleets will soon drive the move to EVs as they become cheaper for deliveries and other vehicles on the road all day. That's where the cost/benefit of EVs shine.

Amazon's 100,000 Rivian delivery trucks for example.

Toyota Hybrids were adopted en masse by taxi companies, this will be similar.
Agree to disagree Warren, as impressive as a 100,000 EV vans is, it's over 10 years, that's 10,000 a year in a US market that bought 2.6 million fleet vehicles last year. And it's not guaranteed, Rivian still needs to complete the design and make vans for Amazon to test.

It seems likely to me that Amazon and others will end up with a mix of EV and ICE vehicles that have specific niches of operation.

Amazon Buying So Many Commercial Vans, It's a Boom for Mercedes, FCA, and Ford

As the gray delivery vans head down your street with packages, relax knowing you've helped the auto industry even though you didn't even get in the car.

.......delivery vehicles Amazon uses today that have already helped other automakers that sell vans to the retail giant, in particular Daimler's Mercedes-Benz (Sprinter), Fiat Chrysler (Ram ProMaster), and Ford (Transit).

Automotive News says sales of all three of these vans are up this year, with the Sprinter up almost 3 percent year over year in 2019, Ram's ProMaster up 25 percent from 2018, and the Transit having a record third quarter. In fact, it's likely going to be a record year for fleet sales in general, according to Automotive News. It's not just Amazon: other companies, rental-car agencies, and governments have already purchased 2.6 million units for their fleets through November, the paper says, citing Cox Automotive data.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...-mercedes-fca/

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Last edited by jawagord; May 23, 2020 at 6:29 PM.
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  #1395  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 9:04 PM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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Street parking is the biggest issue I see. Particularly in other countries like in Europe where the parking is very limited, although there at least the car is probably less frequently used for long trips. If charging times can be brought down to reasonable levels at commercial chargers, this should be manageable.
Yes that is a consideration, but then again supply and demand can also sort this out. Some cities have done pilot programs attaching charging to their street light network. As they have replaced lights with LED, there is excess capacity in the system that can serve to charge cars.

Same principle apples to the rest of it though. This is electricity. Our grid is ubiquitous and relatively simple to understand. Frankly, billing is the most complicated and expensive part.

Truly no comparison to oil extraction, refining, and local delivery.
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  #1396  
Old Posted May 23, 2020, 11:24 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Our condo has a few regular outlets that people have used, but we also installed a 40A circuit and an EV charger for around $2200 all in. It's shared use, $30/month per EV. It's a lot easier to ballpark the value than nickel and dime everybody.
This works for the few EV owners in the building. But this is not a scaleable solution to the point where say every car owner in the building is driving an EV. That would require a whole lot more infrastructure.


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Yes, getting L2 charging to every parking spot would be prohibitively expensive, but also unnecessary. Each EV driver uses that charger about 4-6 hours a week. We actually ran a second circuit since it was so cheap, and we can install another charger if that ever becomes necessary.
Don't need a Level 2 charger per spot. But believe it or not, providing a NEMA 5-15 at each sparking spot is still an undertaking. And that's providing a level of service that is subpart to a the suburban home owner. Hardly a great sales pitch for EVs.

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The downtown core of Vancouver has ONE gas station left, probably 8 pumps. Taking a quick count, there are 2 Tesla superchargers with a total of 30 plugs, and 2 DCFC locations with a total of 4 plugs.
I still don't see this as broadly scaleable. We're talking about a solution that addresses the EVs of one brand, held by a small number of drivers. What's the solution for when half the car owners in your area have EVs?

The gas station comparison isn't quite as equivalent. One can easily fill up as soon as they leave downtown Vancouver.
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  #1397  
Old Posted May 24, 2020, 12:00 AM
milomilo milomilo is online now
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Aren't the 120V chargers, in the words of the comic book guy, intolerably slow?
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  #1398  
Old Posted May 24, 2020, 12:21 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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1. Non-luxury EV’s are not profitable from any manufacturer, beyond meeting government regulations for fleet economy there’s no incentive to produce more EV’s when you lose money on each one. Toyota estimates a production level of 50,000 units per year is required to justify a vehicle model, how many EV’s are attaining that production?
Costs come down as production scales. Who is making EVs are the kind of scale where they can compete with lower cost gas vehicles?

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2. Reduced battery costs are not going to dramatically lower the cost of EV’s. Tesla’s says a replacement battery will retail for $3000-7,000, then what does it cost Tesla to put batteries into a new car, $2-3 thousand? If you cut that price in half, you reduce the selling price of a model 3 by what $2000? https://interestingengineering.com/t...ound-5000-7000
That's true for Tesla. Not as true for every other carmarket. Otherwise, nobody could sell EVs for less than Tesla.

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3. The cheapest Tesla EV is a small luxury car, which is a small and shrinking market segment. Tesla can grow by cannibalizing market share of other small luxury car manufacturers but overall this is a very small segment of the vehicle market that is becoming EV. The SUV market is where growth is and that market is dominated by ICE’s. https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2019-u...sales-figures/
Until appropriate competition shows up. I'm sure BMW, MB, Audi and Lexus didn't think they'd lose be losing sales from their highest volume models to an EV either.

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4. Government subsidies for EV’s will go away at some point as sales increase, everywhere that has happened we’ve seen a dramatic drop in sales, we need only look at Ontario to see the effect. It’s catch 22 for EV sales.
Indeed. True when EVs cost $70k. But subsidies aren't needed when EVs cost $30k. And that's the direction things are going.

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5. Lack of infrastructure for charging EV’s in condos and apartments will limit potential buyers as you have noted. We bought a new 2019 condo last year, no power at our underground parking stall.
Absolutely. Which is why I said, I don't think the obstacle is the cost of the car. It's infrastructure.

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Seems to me there are plenty of hurdles to overcome for EV’s. Personally I think a plug in hybrid vehicle is a better choice for the Canadian climate and geography, but if Warren wants to gift me his Tesla I’ll take it!
Guessing you don't drive a hybrid. I do. I would either go full electric or back to gas. And batteries are advancing so fast that it that I think they'll be competitive with gas vehicles shortly. Plug-ins aren't going to be competitive for long.


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It seems likely to me that Amazon and others will end up with a mix of EV and ICE vehicles that have specific niches of operation.
Bezos has specifically said that the Rivian order is part of a strategy to electrify Amazon's last mile delivery. That Rivian order is over 3x the size of the current Amazon delivery fleet. And they were specifically designed for Amazon, along with other vehicles they are working on. Amazon is also a major investor in Rivian with a $700 million investment. It's not some random relationship where they just order a few vehicles.

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Amazon Buying So Many Commercial Vans, It's a Boom for Mercedes, FCA, and Ford

As the gray delivery vans head down your street with packages, relax knowing you've helped the auto industry even though you didn't even get in the car.

.......delivery vehicles Amazon uses today that have already helped other automakers that sell vans to the retail giant, in particular Daimler's Mercedes-Benz (Sprinter), Fiat Chrysler (Ram ProMaster), and Ford (Transit).

Automotive News says sales of all three of these vans are up this year, with the Sprinter up almost 3 percent year over year in 2019, Ram's ProMaster up 25 percent from 2018, and the Transit having a record third quarter. In fact, it's likely going to be a record year for fleet sales in general, according to Automotive News. It's not just Amazon: other companies, rental-car agencies, and governments have already purchased 2.6 million units for their fleets through November, the paper says, citing Cox Automotive data.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...-mercedes-fca/

Amazon is ordering regular delivery vans until they can get enough from Rivian. That shouldn't be a surprise for anybody. But it's not just Amazon. There's UPS with its order for 10 000 vehicles from Arrival, the company that is working to electrify Royal Mail in the UK. DHL actually owns a company that build its electric delivery vehicles: Streetscooter.

Electrified delivery vehicles will be the norm in a decade. Companies that don't are going to get run over by Amazon and their 100 000 Rivian fleet. Hard to compete with delivery costs that low.
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  #1399  
Old Posted May 24, 2020, 12:43 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is online now
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Aren't the 120V chargers, in the words of the comic book guy, intolerably slow?
Yes. But sufficient for the average commuter to charge overnight. A normal NEMA 1-15 at 15A, gives you 1.4 kW. Depending on the car model that's 3-4 km per hour of charging. Given that most people park their car for 8-10 hrs overnight, that's more than enough for the average commute. Longer trips would require the use of fast chargers (Level 3).

A 240V/50A connection would provide 9.6 kW of power. So about 40-50 km per hour of charging. But installing that kind of service at every parking spot would be a substantially more expensive effort than a normal NEMA 1-15 outlet with 120V/15A service. This is why I suggested that full scale electrification would involve enough level 2 chargers for all residents at some rough ratio (say 1 Lvl 2 charger per 10 units).

From the perspective of a condo dweller though, it's not the same ease of charging as somebody parking in their own garage and plugging. Unlike those who live in a SFH, condo dwellers have to play musical chairs with chargers. Or you incur the cost to install a 240V/50A connection at every spot. But that is expensive. And so most condos won't do it. Which really does limit uptake of EVs in condos and apartments.
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Old Posted May 24, 2020, 1:28 AM
milomilo milomilo is online now
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Yes. But sufficient for the average commuter to charge overnight. A normal NEMA 1-15 at 15A, gives you 1.4 kW. Depending on the car model that's 3-4 km per hour of charging. Given that most people park their car for 8-10 hrs overnight, that's more than enough for the average commute. Longer trips would require the use of fast chargers (Level 3).

A 240V/50A connection would provide 9.6 kW of power. So about 40-50 km per hour of charging. But installing that kind of service at every parking spot would be a substantially more expensive effort than a normal NEMA 1-15 outlet with 120V/15A service. This is why I suggested that full scale electrification would involve enough level 2 chargers for all residents at some rough ratio (say 1 Lvl 2 charger per 10 units).

From the perspective of a condo dweller though, it's not the same ease of charging as somebody parking in their own garage and plugging. Unlike those who live in a SFH, condo dwellers have to play musical chairs with chargers. Or you incur the cost to install a 240V/50A connection at every spot. But that is expensive. And so most condos won't do it. Which really does limit uptake of EVs in condos and apartments.
Assuming it's scalable, $2000-3000 isn't an astronomical sum of money to install per unit. Soon enough there are going to be enough people that would be willing to pay that premium to have a condo with that specification. And would it even be that much to install en masse? AFAIK, with my rudimentary knowledge of electrical, isn't it just a breaker, the wiring, a wall unit and labour?

Although is there a mechanism for securing it from someone stealing your juice?
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