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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by accord1999 View Post
The crossover is gaining in all of Europe even.

Despite growing at a slower rate than in previous years, the shift from traditional cars to SUVs continued in 2018. In total, 5.4 million SUVs were registered in Europe throughout the year, up 19% on 2017, as their market share increased from 29.2% to 34.6%. Demand for SUVs grew by 20% between 2016 and 2017, by 21% between 2015 and 2016, and by 24% between 2014 and 2015, and has more than doubled over the last four years. “Unlike other market trends that can often be short-lived, the SUV boom is stable and long-lasting. The success is down to the industry listening to consumers and giving them what they want in terms of design, subsegments and categories,” comments Munoz.

https://www.jato.com/european-car-ma...re-since-2001/



Though government tax policies trying to increase fuel mileage also led to the diesel debacle.
Diesel is a bit of a slippery slope. Better economy but more polluting.

Fuel efficiency has improved dramatically in larger vehicles here, for instance our two year old 4Runner with a 4L V6 gets much better mileage than our seven year old Tacoma with a 3.4L V6, and it’s a heavier car.
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:21 PM
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Though government tax policies trying to increase fuel mileage also led to the diesel debacle.
Indeed, which is why I always will argue for good policy implemented for the right reasons, not whatever is politically expedient at the time. The diesel farce was caused by lazy, arbitrary incentives/disincentives in Europe (and particularly the UK) and is exactly the type of thing that leads people to being opposed to good policy, like the carbon tax.
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  #43  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:37 PM
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I always thought our Audi A3 hatch back was a practical "family car". big enough to toss the skis, or camping gear in for a trip to the mountains, surely it would work with a toddler....WRONG.

That little piece of shit became useless to me the second I bought my 4Runner and experienced what practical actually was.

I was the typical urban elitist (like the vast majority of you) looking down on all those people with SUV's and trucks...but they are just so damn practical.

We need a second (well I guess third if you count the "toy" that is getting rebuilt) family car. It will not be a sedan. no way. used Range Rover, new 4 door Tacoma, Bronco...TBD.

My perfect scenario is always having three cars. one garage queen, and two (his and hers) utilitarian haulers that can be driven out of town on the snowiest weekends, commute to work and haul kids in. There is no need for family sedans....and well, obviously manufactures feel the same way.
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:45 PM
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An Audi A3 hatch is still vastly better on practicality than a sedan though, especially a small one. Unless you really value looks or drive quality (and it's pretty debatable if you'd notice the difference), then I can't think of any advantages of a sedan over a hatchback.
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  #45  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
My perfect scenario is always having three cars. one garage queen, and two (his and hers) utilitarian haulers that can be driven out of town on the snowiest weekends, commute to work and haul kids in. There is no need for family sedans....and well, obviously manufactures feel the same way.
Family sedans are perfect secondary cars. I appreciate having a crossover SUV but I wouldn't bother getting a second one... having one vehicle capable of moving the occasional very large load like a bunch of suitcases for a road trip or a full load from IKEA is enough.

Conversely, a sedan has more than enough room for most common shopping trips or daily hauling, with a generous amount of room for passengers. And they are generally much less expensive than SUVs/crossovers.
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 2:51 PM
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it was a hatch....

The front passenger seat had to be pushed all the way to the front if the car seat was in the back. You had to force the stroller in the hatch.

Looking back on it, I think we had the car seat in it ONCE before we sold it when the kid was 2 months old. It was a white flag moment...we became SUV people.
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  #47  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:04 PM
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I have a 2011 BMW AWD 550 sedan that I truly love, but it is most definitely my secondary vehicle.

I also have a 2016 BMW AWD X3 SUV which I use for out of town travel, shopping (especially at Costco), transporting stuff to recycling and the regional landfill, and generally back and forth to work, especially in the wintertime.

In Canada, with our wide open distances and interminable five month winters, SUV's are just so much more practical than sedans. If I only had one car, it would be an AWD SUV. I might have a sedan or a convertible for a "toy" vehicle, but it would most definitely be a second car........
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  #48  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:05 PM
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Family sedans are perfect secondary cars. I appreciate having a crossover SUV but I wouldn't bother getting a second one... having one vehicle capable of moving the occasional very large load like a bunch of suitcases for a road trip or a full load from IKEA is enough.

Conversely, a sedan has more than enough room for most common shopping trips or daily hauling, with a generous amount of room for passengers. And they are generally much less expensive than SUVs/crossovers.
But the difference between a mid size sedan and the crossover that shares its platform (or at least equivalent wheel base) is practically inconsequential in so many ways other than cargo space. Taking a 5% hit on mileage and cornering G's, but getting 25% more cargo space for a small price premium...makes sense.
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Family sedans are perfect secondary cars. I appreciate having a crossover SUV but I wouldn't bother getting a second one... having one vehicle capable of moving the occasional very large load like a bunch of suitcases for a road trip or a full load from IKEA is enough.

Conversely, a sedan has more than enough room for most common shopping trips or daily hauling, with a generous amount of room for passengers. And they are generally much less expensive than SUVs/crossovers.
This is more or less our set up as well.

After having a car with AWD, it would be hard to go back. We have a late model Santa Fe with AWD and Nokian studded tires (wife's daily driver). It is almost unfair how well it handles and drives during the winter.

Our other car is basically a 5 year change out of inexpensive smallish 4-door sedan/hatchback or whatever can be had with a manual tranny and low $$.
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  #50  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:23 PM
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^ My current crossover SUV is a Ford Edge without AWD. My last one was a Nissan Murano with AWD. The AWD made no practical difference to me... I can't tell the difference in terms of how it feels when driving. Maybe it's because I lived in the inner city when I owned the Murano and mostly drove on urban streets with speed limits no higher than 60 km/h, but I just never saw how AWD could be considered essential.

Of course, 4x4 trucks are a whole other story...
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:25 PM
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AWD is essential in a snowbelt city like Moncton. The extra clearance afforded by SUV's also comes in handy.

For reference, everyone I know in Moncton owns a snowblower too........
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  #52  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:26 PM
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Before the 4Runner we had a 2007 Lexus ES350. Perfectly fine car, but still, once you experience the space, utility and convenience of an SUV it's pretty hard to argue that sedans are better.

I've owned Toyota trucks since 2004. for my lifestyle, and for living in Edmonton, and taking numerous trips into the BC backcountry, doing home renovations etc a truck is extremely beneficial to have. The truck is a utility vehicle through & through.















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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:28 PM
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^ My current crossover SUV is a Ford Edge without AWD. My last one was a Nissan Murano with AWD. The AWD made no practical difference to me... I can't tell the difference in terms of how it feels when driving. Maybe it's because I lived in the inner city when I owned the Murano and mostly drove on urban streets with speed limits no higher than 60 km/h, but I just never saw how AWD could be considered essential.

Of course, 4x4 trucks are a whole other story...
^ AWD is certainly not required. But it's a definitely a "nice to have".

AWD with good quality winter tires just makes everything seem effortless. No sliding, no spinning, chattering tires, etc. etc.
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  #54  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 3:31 PM
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^ I'm not an expert, but in my observations, winter tires seem to make a bigger difference on a day to day basis than AWD.
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  #55  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 4:47 PM
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Notice how all the companies bowing out are the NA ones. They state it's due to the derclining market which is a falsehood. It's not the declining market but rather their inability to compete in it.
basically this. Ford, GM and Chrysler have produced shoddy, banal sedans for decades, that are almost in every way inferior to their Japanese (and to a lesser extent, Korean and European marque) counterparts.

why the fuck would someone buy a Ford Focus instead of say, a Honda Civic?
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  #56  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 4:48 PM
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Crossovers are just slightly taller hatchbacks and wagons. They're better for getting kids in and out while in car seats, better for seniors with bad backs and knees and marginally better cargo capacity for larger loads. Just a bit more practical and the smaller ones can still be good on fuel.

But then minivans are even more practical and there's a whole lot of self-professed practical SUV guys who won't consider one.

Last edited by Mikemike; Feb 20, 2019 at 5:27 PM.
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  #57  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 4:50 PM
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I'm really bummed that the NA manufacturers will stop producing sedans. Not as much Chrysler and GM. I've lost interest in those brands years ago. Ford however has (had) some great designs. I feel like I see more Fusions on the road today than any of the competitors, including Toyota and Honda. The small cars to me are still relevant for first time buyers, those who aren't comfortable will larger vehicles and those who value fuel efficiency. It seems foolish to completely give up that market to the Japanese brands.

I drive a 2005 Ford Focus ZX3 with 282,000 kms. Never had an issue (knock-on-wood). I am terrified of the day I have to buy a new car with all of those fancy "safety" features that will distract me and/or reduce my alertness on the road by relying too much on them. I absolutely hate the fact that keys, an invention that could not be improved upon, have been replaced with fobs that can easily be hacked, that have batteries that if dead will strand you, the push button start that could fry. That flip switch emergency break that cannot be used during emergencies, WTF were they thinking.
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  #58  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 4:54 PM
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This is what anyone north of the 53rd should be driving.


http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...pswbpl2qow.jpg
Do you need to rent the train tracks upon which to drive this locomotive?
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 4:55 PM
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They are all the rage in Iceland.
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  #60  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2019, 5:00 PM
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To me a huge advantage of a car is it fits in the garage, which makes life much easier in cities that get a substantial winter.
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