Why American public transit is so bad

[dubu]

you cant compare the us to canada. canada is a far distant off to the side kind place. the us is one of the places where the action is. thats what i think of it. the us has some real good things like good weather..

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by dubu

you cant compare the us to canada. canada is a far distant off to the side kind place. the us is one of the places where the action is. thats what i think of it. the us has some real good things like good weather..

indeed, Canada is far far, away. Most Americans don't realize that Toronto actually looks like this. I'm actually just taking the piss when I compare it to suburban Dallas.

[dc_denizen]

the other thing that Toronto benefits from is, paradoxically, the dreaded separation of uses. Arterials are less likely to be lined with commercial businesses than in most American cities; these uses are all located at major rectantangular/polygonal concentrations with light industry/big box etc.

this can also help somewhat with the pedestrian experience (less trucks, less traffic in and out), and probably helps transit usage.

[dc_denizen]

more long, suburban, LA/Dallas style residential arterials in Toronto, lined with single family homes.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8006...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8447...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8782...7i13312!8i6656

a nice, more 'urban' example of this

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7213...7i16384!8i8192

Plano-on-the-Lake

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7067...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5897...7i16384!8i8192

toronto's hinterland is similar to that of Detroit and SF valley/inland empire of LA in that there were no smaller market towns to break up the monotony of the grid. Even chicago had an oak park/Evanston/etc. part of the sunbelt venacular to me.

[dubu]

so ya canada has many positives, hay i an live in america. its not perfect but whatever.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

indeed, Canada is far far, away. Most Americans don't realize that Toronto actually looks like this. I'm actually just taking the piss when I compare it to suburban Dallas.

Nah! That's Winnipeg. Though it's an easy mistake to make since all Canadian cities look the same.

[dc_denizen]

meanwhile Dallas...

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8656...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9096...7i16384!8i8192

like suburban toronto but without residential highrises at major intersections. instead you have dallas donut filler at shopping centers/office parks/old manufacturing sites. the best example urbanistically being

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.9616...7i16384!8i8192

btw the actual city of Toronto (ie where the main boulevards start to be lined with 1-2 story retail) is quite great urbanistically, and I am merely comparing its sunbelty suburbs to those of a highly disparaged American city, and finding surprisingly many common features.

[dubu]

Winnipeg is like a magestig place, alaska and canada are one of those like wtf weird places. they are high tech and ya in the nature. the us is tht but we have things more uver running us at times.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

meanwhile Dallas...

like suburban toronto but without residential highrises at major intersections. instead you have dallas donut filler at shopping centers/office parks/old manufacturing sites.

btw the actual city of Toronto (ie where the main boulevards start to be lined with 1-2 story retail) is quite great urbanistically, and I am merely comparing its sunbelty suburbs to those of a highly disparaged American city, and finding surprisingly many common features.

One big difference between Houston/Dallas and Toronto: Houston and Dallas are not geographically defined (and limited) like Toronto is by Lake Ontario. You'll encounter progressively longer ring roads as you move in all directions away from the centers. Toronto is pretty much a North-South/East-West grid. Much easier for developing and using transit. Houston and Dallas are like ever expanding balloons where everything moves farther and farther apart as they inflate. Distances become ridiculous.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by bilbao58

I would say Finch at Yonge is a lot more pedestrian friendly than Post Oak at San Felipe.

That TO intersection reminds me more of lower Westheimer in the age of older developments but obviously much further along with new construction.

Anyway, this is all I need to know about suburban Toronto:

• Video Link

[Buckeye Native 001]

Video's not playing but I'm going to assume that's "Subdivisions"

Apparently suburban Toronto is perpetually stuck in 1982 and everyone unironically plays Galaga.

And then there's Letterkenny, where even the rednecks are more progressive than the backwoods fucks who dot the landscape throughout Northern Arizona.

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by JManc

That TO intersection reminds me more of lower Westheimer in the age of older developments but obviously much further along with new construction.

Anyway, this is all I need to know about suburban Toronto:

All you need to know about Texas suburbs:

• Video Link

[ssiguy]

You guys, knock it off with all this Toronto talk! This is a thread about American transit not about Toronto urban planning.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

there is something very very sun-belt , almost Texan/inland empire about suburban toronto.

the metal transmission towers along the arterials remind you of Houston.

the long arterials with single family home areas set behind walls (but with high rise residential at some intersections, besides just strip centers/minimalls)

the built environment is cleaner (fewer mattress stores) with less retail and infrastructural clutter.

take a good maps drive Finch ave if you disagree

the high rises are likely the reason for the higher transit usage.

Has anyone proven that single family homeowners in Toronto are any more likely than their Texas counterparts to use transit?

compare

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0264...7i16384!8i8192

and

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7884...7i16384!8i8192

You do know the whole point of the video is that Toronto suburban areas have high frequency bus routes, which encourages use. So I don't get the point is showing suburban Toronto areas when we all know they are similar to americans ones but just with more highrises dotted here and there.
Finch in particular has one of the highest bus frequencies in Toronto with one of the highest usages. It has so much usage that buses aren't enough and an LRT is currently being built from Finch west station going all the way west.

Now are Dallas and Houston building an LRT line in their outer reaches because the bus routes are over capacity even with 5-10 mins wait times during peak times. that is why Toronto is different and a model to follow

finch West LRT

• Video Link

also here is another completely suburban LRT project in the GTA linking Mississauga and brampton with LRT
construction will start soon for this project


• Video Link

high frequency transit in and around Toronto and not complete focus on bring people downtown leads to high usage that's all the article/video is pointing out.

[dc_denizen]

high bus usage is encouraged by two things:

(1) high rise residential. Frequency is a side-affect of situating many people in high rise apartments.

(2) the separation of uses that I discussed above, which looks very pronounced in suburban Toronto relative to other suburbs in NA and probably encourages transit.

here is a bus stop in Brampton. how close is the nearest supermarket/laundry?

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7061...7i16384!8i8192

(wow what luxury , I could never imagine such grade a transit services in America.)

look how concentrated services/retail/commercial is in toronto vs suburban dallas

toronto: bottom left has retail/commercial/warehouses/jobs, rest of entire picture residential SFH/small apartment.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7060.../data=!3m1!1e3

suburban dallas, same scale

at least 5-7 retail intersections

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pl...!4d-96.6988856

[Northern Light]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

toronto: bottom left has retail/commercial/warehouses/jobs, rest of entire picture residential SFH/small apartment.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7060.../data=!3m1!1e3

Type in 'supermarket' in the search box on that link.

The retail isn't as absent as you think.

Its just less visible.

[Northern Light]

P.S. Denizen

I have no problem w/you critiquing Toronto's burbs.

Some are nice, as with elsewhere, many are lackluster/cookie-cutter etc.

But you're missing the point of this thread; as you so often do; in order to bash Toronto.

The point is not that suburbs are dominated by sprawl, or SFH on main roads etc etc.

Nor, is the point really the degree to which retail is walkable distance from one's front door.

Where many American's (And Canadians) might shop at Costco or Walmart those are rarely 5 minutes or 10 minutes walk away.

This does not have a material impact on transit usage when comparing Toronto or most other Canadian cities with their typical U.S. counterpart.

Its service frequency.

That's it.

That's all.

You can dress the edges a bit in terms of other minor things that have impacts.

But buses every 10, or even 20 minutes, 7-days a week, 18-hours a day is the key.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

more long, suburban, LA/Dallas style residential arterials in Toronto, lined with single family homes.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8006...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8447...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8782...7i13312!8i6656

a nice, more 'urban' example of this

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7213...7i16384!8i8192

Plano-on-the-Lake

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7067...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5897...7i16384!8i8192

toronto's hinterland is similar to that of Detroit and SF valley/inland empire of LA in that there were no smaller market towns to break up the monotony of the grid. Even chicago had an oak park/Evanston/etc. part of the sunbelt venacular to me.

so most of these areas are in York Region the area above Toronto, well York Region has dissent transit with 2 subways stops and a Bus rapid transit system (VIVA) that is well connect with Toronto's transit


• Video Link

Again you are not going to see an entire suburban BRT system in American cities, which is why Toronto is a model to follow

[jtown,man]

The reason American transit sucks?

The people. I said it.

American transit attracts uncivil people who make others uncomfortable. When people of means have a choice, they usually choose to stay comfortable.

All the headway cuts and service additions in the world aren't gonna attract people ot transit when they have better, more comfortable options.

Of course this is a chicken or the egg situation I suppose. If transit was made a lot better, maybe more civil people would ride transit which would dilute the idiots? I don't know.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

The reason American transit sucks?

The people. I said it.

American transit attracts uncivil people who make others uncomfortable. When people of means have a choice, they usually choose to stay comfortable.

All the headway cuts and service additions in the world aren't gonna attract people ot transit when they have better, more comfortable options.

I think there's an element of truth here, but it's an oversimplification.

The most disturbing incident I ever witnessed on public transit was in Paris. Actually I've witnessed a couple of extremely disturbing incidents on Paris Metro/RER. Yet ridership is sky-high. In the U.S., SF is legendary for bum/junkie issues on public transit, yet ridership is second highest in the U.S., I believe.

The main difference is that in the U.S., it's typically easiest to get around by private vehicle. Even if PT riders were all fantastically behaved, I don't think typical households would even consider PT.