Why American public transit is so bad

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

Toronto and its outlying regions are all based on the grid-system.

At the minimum, roads every 2km or 1.24 miles are through.

In reality, far more than that are typically through streets.

My first thought as well...definitely a big (kind of boring) grid...and I haven't driven in Toronto in ages.

[Doady]

1 mile spacing seems common in places of US (assuming they have any grid at all), so the 0.5 mile to 2 mile spacing in Toronto area seems little different.

You guys can see the map of Toronto in the video: tight grid, straight red lines at regular intervals. Having lots of long continuous corridors closer together is the foundation of Toronto's transit success. To say Toronto is the worst in the respect, or that it actually helps promote transit usage is very odd and sending the wrong message.

I always say where the corridors are broken, that kills the transit ridership. Look at Lawrence East in Toronto, or QEW in Mississauga, or Langstaff Rd in Vaughan. Where the corridors are broken or missing or replaced by freeways, it creates a major gap in the transit system or reduces the usefulness of bus routes that have to navigate those gaps. Such gaps promote car usage, not transit usage. Longer distances is the antithesis of urbanity.

You can see here how entrenched the idea of transit use being the result of barrier to car use, transit is merely a last resort, people only use transit because they have to, only if they have no choice. I think that is the root of the problem with transit in the US. Seriously, how much effort are people really going to put into the argument of Toronto not being built for the car, just to the advance this idea of transit being a last resort? Even Toronto city proper is mostly post-war suburbia. The City of Toronto's population in 1951 was only 1 million; it was built for the car and certainly the suburbs surrounding was built for the car as well. In terms of urbanity, Toronto is nothing compared to Chicago.

I think the only real difference with Toronto and Canada is transit is not just viewed as a last resort, so there are at least half-hearted efforts to allow people to get on buses in Toronto and its suburbs. Transit is looked down upon so much in the US so they don't even bother.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Doady

1 mile spacing seems common in places of US (assuming they have any grid at all)

Chicago's main commercial arterials are set up on a half mile grid, which allows the city to have a pretty damn comprehensive bus network. It's difficult to get more than 1/4 mile away from a bus route in the city. There are also the mid-major through streets on a 1/4 mile grid in between the commercial streets, but they are usually residential and the vast majority do not have bus routes.

Where things fall apart is out in the burbs where PACE provides token bus service that is generally only used by the working poor who have no other option, in most cases.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Chicago's main commercial arterials are set up on a half mile grid, which allows the city to have a pretty damn comprehensive bus network. It's difficult to get more than 1/4 mile away from a bus route in the city. There are also the mid-major through streets on a 1/4 mile grid in between the commercial streets, but they are usually residential and the vast majority do not have bus routes.

Where things fall apart is out in the burbs where PACE provides token bus service that is generally only used by the working poor who have no other option, in most cases.

Outer Detroit's grid is intended to be half mile too, but the half mile roads tend to be secondary thoroughfares. But there are examples of the half mile being a primary thoroughfare, and also examples of the half mile road being the equivalent of a side street.

This is what a typical mile road looks like: https://goo.gl/maps/bfVm7rvWmKuwsrgy6

This is a half mile road that has a bus route: https://goo.gl/maps/pgcQybHffPbrdqe56

This is a half mile road that has the same status of a side street, and thus doesn't have a bus route: https://goo.gl/maps/Spo4Z6gTcEPLzRVp9

The inner areas of Detroit don't really follow the survey system, but I think the bus routes are mostly between 1/4 mile and 1/2 mile apart.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Northern Light

There are several things going on in your statement.

Yes, Toronto has somewhat fewer freeways, relative to its size, than its U.S. counterparts; this is particularly true near downtown.

On that, we can agree.

The suggestion that we have few through streets or few arterials is just weird.

From the perspective of connectivity, Crawford is right here - Toronto, at least in the central areas, was never centrally planned and thus doesn't have a "true" grid. Blocks are rectilinear, but unevenly sized and spaced, and often intersect at weird angles. And the back streets are often one-way by design to discourage through traffic. The result of this is that most through traffic - whether it be pedestrian, bicycle, car, or surface transit - is pushed to the arterial high streets.

That's a big difference from places with a more rigid grid like Manhattan, or even Vancouver or Montreal, where almost any street can act as a through route.

Further reading on the history of why our grid is the way it is: http://spacing.ca/toronto/2013/07/23...is-not-a-grid/


What any of this has to do with transit usage though, I'm not sure.

[dc_denizen]

there is something very very sun-belt , almost Texan/inland empire about suburban toronto.

the metal transmission towers along the arterials remind you of Houston.

the long arterials with single family home areas set behind walls (but with high rise residential at some intersections, besides just strip centers/minimalls)

the built environment is cleaner (fewer mattress stores) with less retail and infrastructural clutter.

take a good maps drive Finch ave if you disagree

the high rises are likely the reason for the higher transit usage.

Has anyone proven that single family homeowners in Toronto are any more likely than their Texas counterparts to use transit?

compare

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0264...7i16384!8i8192

and

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7884...7i16384!8i8192

[softee]

^ This is also Finch Avenue: https://goo.gl/maps/afsq3wzvmBqnGnvL8

I don't think you're gonna find anything like that along that street in Plano.

[10023]

Because most American cities were built for cars and not people. You can’t create a good public transportation system in a city like Houston or Dallas.

[10023]

Originally Posted by softee

^ This is also Finch Avenue: https://goo.gl/maps/afsq3wzvmBqnGnvL8

I don't think you're gonna find anything like that along that street in Plano.

This is still not a streetscape that is inviting for pedestrians. It’s a bit like the new districts of many Chinese cities (though not as sparkly and new), and demonstrates why density does not necessarily imply walkability.

[Minato Ku]

I would say that at least it's better for a heavier use of public transportation than strip malls and commercial building surrounded by parking lots
It's not very pedestrian friendly but at least a lot of people have a proximity to transit.

I agree that it still look quite suburban especially when taking account of the wider surroundings.
There are high-rises residential and office along Yonge street and then one block after, it's almost all single familly houses.
It's a clear border with no middle ground and this looks quite articifical.

I understand that one doesn't built a city in just one day and it's easier and faster to build new high-rises along commercial corridors than densifing the surrounding residencial streets.
Anyway I think that Toronto lacks of this infill, a more "natural" transition between single familly houses and high-rises.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Has anyone proven that single family homeowners in Toronto are any more likely than their Texas counterparts to use transit?

Well uh, yeah, that would be implied by the daily transit ridership* of 2.4 million in the GTA vs 243,000 in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro. It's not as if that's all coming from apartment-dwellers.


*Pre-Covid numbers, of course...

[dubu]

you could have a american city be walkable, just make it easy to live in the city. no hurry, you have time to walk a long ways and have money to do whatever you need to do.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Well uh, yeah, that would be implied by the daily transit ridership* of 2.4 million in the GTA vs 243,000 in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro. It's not as if that's all coming from apartment-dwellers.

There are TONS of single family homes within a couple of minutes' walking distant from just the Yonge Street subway line alone. In fact, 70% (ETA: This number is incorrect) of people in Toronto proper live in single family homes.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by softee

^ This is also Finch Avenue: https://goo.gl/maps/afsq3wzvmBqnGnvL8

I don't think you're gonna find anything like that along that street in Plano.

You would in Dallas and Houston; transitioning areas with loads of new development resulting in a not so pedestrian friendly environment.

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by JManc

You would in Dallas and Houston; transitioning areas with loads of new development resulting in a not so pedestrian friendly environment.

I would say Finch at Yonge is a lot more pedestrian friendly than Post Oak at San Felipe.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by bilbao58

There are TONS of single family homes within a couple of minutes' walking distant from just the Yonge Street subway line alone. In fact, 70% of people in Toronto proper live in single family homes.

While there are single family homes within walking distance of the subway (who most likely use transit), your numbers are pretty far off.

Per Statcan, in the City of Toronto:

24% of housing units are detached single family homes
12% are attached single family
44% are in apartments with >5 stories
19% are in apartments with <5 stories

In the GTA as a whole, it's about 45% apartment, 40% detached, 15% attached.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...chText=toronto

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

While there are single family homes within walking distance of the subway (who most likely use transit), your numbers are pretty far off.

Yeah, I made an assumption (a little too quickly, it seems) when I read Statistics Canada's webpage stating that 3 in 10 dwellings in Toronto were in high-rise buildings. https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-r...app1%26hl%3Den I forgot about low-rise apartments.

Toronto proper still has large swathes of suburban, single-family type neighborhoods, though.

[jd3189]

Honestly, people being packed into dense inner suburbs would be the foundation for more bus systems going through the largest American metros.

What they have done in Toronto could be applied to LA, especially due to its. It would involve public and private funding in the form of shuttles that take people where they need to go. Especially for the older population, but everyone can use these systems.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by 10023

Because most American cities were built for cars and not people. You can’t create a good public transportation system in a city like Houston or Dallas.

Despite this being a contributing factor, the video was clear in showing that most American transit systems are mainly built to get you between downtown and a random outer suburb.

Traffic patterns should probably be analyzed in order to provide public transportation that is relevant to the working class. Once that happens, it can be sustainable and yield more development in the future.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

there is something very very sun-belt , almost Texan/inland empire about suburban toronto.

the metal transmission towers along the arterials remind you of Houston.

the long arterials with single family home areas set behind walls (but with high rise residential at some intersections, besides just strip centers/minimalls)

the built environment is cleaner (fewer mattress stores) with less retail and infrastructural clutter.

take a good maps drive Finch ave if you disagree

the high rises are likely the reason for the higher transit usage.

Has anyone proven that single family homeowners in Toronto are any more likely than their Texas counterparts to use transit?

compare

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0264...7i16384!8i8192

and

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7884...7i16384!8i8192

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