Halifax Stadium Discussion

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Could you elaborate on your reasons. A stadium seems to fit and it seems like these lands might be available.

All of my reasons have already been mentioned by others, but I'll reiterate them.
Transportation in that area is piss poor. The road network leading into that area as Keith said gets so backed up, it just would never work.
Not a lot of space, you're basically trying to shoe horn in a 20-25k stadium into such a little space, there will be no room as mentioned above for expansion or anything else.
It looks like one of your ideas you want to demolish one of the sheds, I think pier 23. Good luck with that.
Or even if you could screw around with it and not have to demolish any buildings, you're taking up the majority of the parking for places like the Cunard Centre/Pier 21/cruise ship facilities. If you haven't noticed, there isn't a lot of on-street parking around there, and the VIA tracks cut that location off pretty well from the rest of the city.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by BravoZulu

...I think you are right that the SMU location makes the most sense for a number of reasons:

1. Huskies stadium needs replacement or major repairs.
2. A joint venture by the university and the city/new CFL owners would be easier to finance.
3. Still reasonably close to downtown.
4. Good transit service for the universitys could be extended to weekend days when games are on.

While it would technically work, especially if they got rid of the running track...I dunno, this site just seems to be also too crowded.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Takeo

Yes... but hell would freeze over before you could get the city, community, counsellors, neighbours, etc. to agree to put a stadium in Gorsebrook Field... and in the backyards of so many residents. And perhaps that's the proper thing. I don't think there is any appropriate location in the South End... personally.

Absolutely correct. I could not agree more, the south end is a non-starter.

[fenwick16]

OK. I am convinced that the Via Rail Station is a poor site. It would be different if Halifax already had local rail transit to that station, but it doesn't, and I can see that there is only one road bringing traffic into the site. Also, I don't like the idea of people having to cross the Via train tracks to get to the stadium. Even with a pedestrian bridge some people will start taking shortcuts across the tracks. So cross out that site.

Halifax is a compact city, just look at the downtown area. Many cities in Canada and the US are not built this way (most are not). Most have large to very large blocks (i.e. western cities) and often one large building per block and a lot of space between blocks and very wide streets. However, to me this is boring. You end up with a very spread out city with a dead downtown and it takes forever to walk from one location to another. This is one reason that I love Halifax. It is compact and easy to walk around. So instead of trying to design a stadium that would work well in a western city like Winnipeg, Calgary or Regina have a very compact stadium that will work in Halifax. This isn't shoe-horning it in. This is just designing it to suit Halifax. Just look at the architecture around Halifax, there are new commercial buildings built on top of old. So Halifax should continue to be Halifax and not try to be Toronto, Calgary or any other city. Simply put, design a stadium that is meant to be for Halifax and stop comparing to other cities.

What about a smaller size dome (about the size of the Carrier Dome, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_Dome ) with the roof above the field open and have the roof as a standard steel supported roof? The Carrier Dome is 49,250 bench style seats, but by the time you put a Canadian size field in it and add a few luxury suites, it will be only about 40,000. Since the space above the field is open the roof does not have to be built so high. Perhaps in the future a small fabric dome could be added above the open field during the winter months. Then it could also be used for other purposes during the winter.

The Carrier Dome will actually fit very nicely onto the Wanderers Grounds with room to spare. I have shown the actual Carrier Dome and the Halifax stadium with the field area open. The Carrier Dome was built in 1979-1980 for $28 million dollars. Another nice fact, this could seat 40,000 plus for hockey or basketball if in the future a fabric dome section was added to cover the field during the winter.

Carrier Dome


Halifax Stadium with the field area open

[fenwick16]

A good compact proposal would be the new proposed Blue Bombers stadium which would likely fit on this size lot. This would also be a good addition to the Halifax architecture instead of some jury-rigged version. I think that there are various sites on the peninsula that are large enough.

I think that the best idea would be for Halifax to just start with something like the Saputo Stadium in Montreal. Then in the future if Halifax feels that it needs a more elaborate stadium to be used during the winter then it can be built.

[Urban_Genius]

You guys should maybe send a letter to Peter McKay. He's a big football fan and is suggesting housing a team in Atlantic Canada. The article doesn't specify, but due to the short time frame it seems he's referring to Moncton. Either way, he may be a good guy to try to get on board.

It would be great for a major city such as Halifax to get it's own stadium, one which could house a CFL team, concerts, international soccer and rugby matches, SMU and Dalhousie athletics.

Good luck, and enjoy the Grey Cup today!

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/C...70181-sun.html

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Urban_Genius

You guys should maybe send a letter to Peter McKay. He's a big football fan and is suggesting housing a team in Atlantic Canada. The article doesn't specify, but due to the short time frame it seems he's referring to Moncton. Either way, he may be a good guy to try to get on board.

It would be great for a major city such as Halifax to get it's own stadium, one which could house a CFL team, concerts, international soccer and rugby matches, SMU and Dalhousie athletics.

Good luck, and enjoy the Grey Cup today!

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/C...70181-sun.html

Thanks for the input Urban_Genius. It is great to see CFL fans from outside the Halifax area contributing to this thread.

[macgregor]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

OK. I am convinced that the Via Rail Station is a poor site. It would be different if Halifax already had local rail transit to that station, but it doesn't, and I can see that there is only one road bringing traffic into the site. Also, I don't like the idea of people having to cross the Via train tracks to get to the stadium. Even with a pedestrian bridge some people will start taking shortcuts across the tracks. So cross out that site.

Halifax is a compact city, just look at the downtown area. Many cities in Canada and the US are not built this way (most are not). Most have large to very large blocks (i.e. western cities) and often one large building per block and a lot of space between blocks and very wide streets. However, to me this is boring. You end up with a very spread out city with a dead downtown and it takes forever to walk from one location to another. This is one reason that I love Halifax. It is compact and easy to walk around. So instead of trying to design a stadium that would work well in a western city like Winnipeg, Calgary or Regina have a very compact stadium that will work in Halifax. This isn't shoe-horning it in. This is just designing it to suit Halifax. Just look at the architecture around Halifax, there are new commercial buildings built on top of old. So Halifax should continue to be Halifax and not try to be Toronto, Calgary or any other city. Simply put, design a stadium that is meant to be for Halifax and stop comparing to other cities.

I do think that you have come up some good ideas. Personally I think a field over the VIA rail tracks and integrated with the station and Westin hotel would be amazing. It would be similar to Penn Station/Madison Square Gardens. Parking and access could be made to work, but the cost for all of this might be unrealistic.

Instead of a list of pros and cons for all of your sites, you could set up a scoring matrix with essential criteria and rating scores. One site would come out with the highest score and could be promoted as the preferred site. A preliminary rating chart could help decision makers (developers and politicians) to get the ball rolling. I think there is a higher than usual focus on football right now, so the time is right to make this happen.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by macgregor

I do think that you have come up some good ideas. Personally I think a field over the VIA rail tracks and integrated with the station and Westin hotel would be amazing. It would be similar to Penn Station/Madison Square Gardens. Parking and access could be made to work, but the cost for all of this might be unrealistic.

Instead of a list of pros and cons for all of your sites, you could set up a scoring matrix with essential criteria and rating scores. One site would come out with the highest score and could be promoted as the preferred site. A preliminary rating chart could help decision makers (developers and politicians) to get the ball rolling. I think there is a higher than usual focus on football right now, so the time is right to make this happen.

Great idea. I will do a spreadsheet with different criteria and scores that I can include on this thread so that others can also give suggestions on the criteria and scores.

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Halifax is a compact city, just look at the downtown area. Many cities in Canada and the US are not built this way (most are not). Most have large to very large blocks (i.e. western cities) and often one large building per block and a lot of space between blocks and very wide streets. However, to me this is boring. You end up with a very spread out city with a dead downtown and it takes forever to walk from one location to another. This is one reason that I love Halifax. It is compact and easy to walk around. So instead of trying to design a stadium that would work well in a western city like Winnipeg, Calgary or Regina have a very compact stadium that will work in Halifax. This isn't shoe-horning it in. This is just designing it to suit Halifax. Just look at the architecture around Halifax, there are new commercial buildings built on top of old. So Halifax should continue to be Halifax and not try to be Toronto, Calgary or any other city. Simply put, design a stadium that is meant to be for Halifax and stop comparing to other cities.

I totally agree with you here Fenwick. Which is why I suggested the Huskies Stadium upgrade, a la Molson Field. If you have ever had the chance to visit McGill, it really is a cool facility, and has a very "Haligonian" feel.

Honestly I think this is our best chance for a downtown Stadium, largely because it is already there, and there is a current use for it, it is in need of refurbishment, and several avenues of funding can be leveraged if it is associated with SMU. Earlier someone mentioned "Sobeys Field" as a possible name, well Sobey just endowed a new School of Management Building on Saint Mary's Campus. Otherwise the political will to build a proper stadium elsewhere downtown or anywhere on the peninsula will just never match the political roadblocks in our NIMBY town.

The alternative is a multi-purpose stadium and park which will inevitably wind up at Shannon Park or in the suburban boondocks at best, or rural outskirts at worst. How would you like to travel to Enfield to catch some football? Not me, might as well be going to Moncton. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a site near the airport put forth by some development group if the CFL proposition ever gets serious again. Right out there beside Atlantic Motor Speedway.

[fenwick16]

The Molson stadium is being expanded to 25,000 seats. Do you see any way of fitting 25,000 seats into the SMU stadium? If it can't be done then the most that the SMU stadium can be used for is the SMU Huskies. If that is the case then most likely they will go with a seating capacity of no more than 10,000 which will be a no-go for the CFL and will not be much good for concerts. I think that most likely the SMU stadium will be refurbished to be used just for the SMU Huskies not the CFL.

I disagree with you on a multi-purpose stadium having to be in the suburbs since almost every large city in North America has found ways to build stadiums in the city. Also, I am not too sure about the use of the term multi-purpose stadium since it is basically a football stadium that can be used for anything that can fit in a football stadium. In the past it referred to baseball/football stadiums but very seldom are these combined anymore. However, a football stadium is large enough for several uses such as concerts, soccer, even hockey and basketball (if covered).

[BravoZulu]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The Molson stadium is being expanded to 25,000 seats. Do you see any way of fitting 25,000 seats into the SMU stadium?

What was the capacity at SMU when the CFL was here? From the brief look i got at it before my friend was nice enough to secure us a police escort back outside it seemed like at least 15000 and that was with temporary seating.

[BravoZulu]

4. Hello Mark: Football must return to Ottawa. It is imperative that the league get this deal done ASAP. Then I think the league should focus on Halifax as the much desired 5th eastern division team. Could a stadium deal like the one in Winnipeg be used as a format to build a stadium in Halifax? There are a number of universities with strong football programs in Halifax. There should be public funds available if the stadium could be utilized for a wide range of activities other than C.F.L. football. To create an all inclusive league stretching from the Atlantic ocean to the Pacific would be huge. All regions of the country would be represented and the Grey Cup would truly be a struggle between eastern & western Canada, making the C.F.L. even more compelling. I even have a catchy name for the proposed new franchise; The Nova Scotia Highlanders. Maybe we could start a grass roots movement to build that new stadium in Halifax. (Rick Fullerton, Windsor Ontario)

Thanks, Rick. I get asked about expansion more than any other topic, and your question was one of several we received on expansion. The first two things we need to make expansion work in any city are strong owners with a strong emotional commitment and deep financial resources, as well as an appropriate stadium to play in. Without those two things in place, we risk weakening our league through expansion instead of making it stronger. In Ottawa, we have the right prospective owners in place, a group of local business people I’ve called a Dream Team for our league. They’re working with the city of Ottawa to refurbish Frank Clair Stadium as part of a revitalized Lansdowne Park. This is a vitally important project to the people of Ottawa, and everyone involved is taking the time needed to get it right. You can expect to hear more about this in the weeks to come and we remain optimistic the city council there will approve the stadium plan and CFL football will return to the nation’s capital, where it belongs. As for Atlantic Canada, we’re talking now to various levels of government about bringing a series of regular season games to Moncton, New Brunswick, which is striving to become an entertainment capital (remember the Rolling Stones played there). We would add temporary seats to the stadium at the university. Playing real CFL games there will give us a foothold in Atlantic Canada, and, you never know, that could lead to great things, if the right owners, and right stadium deal, fall into place. (The Winnipeg Stadium deal is unique, and involves the land the existing stadium is on. In Halifax, there is no existing CFL-sized stadium.)

This is from a series of questions asked to the commissioner of the CFL Mark Cohon. I don't like the vibe I get from it especially the Rolling Stones comment (Hey Mark the Rolling Stones played in Halifax too)

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by terrynorthend

The alternative is a multi-purpose stadium and park which will inevitably wind up at Shannon Park or in the suburban boondocks at best, or rural outskirts at worst. How would you like to travel to Enfield to catch some football? Not me, might as well be going to Moncton. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a site near the airport put forth by some development group if the CFL proposition ever gets serious again. Right out there beside Atlantic Motor Speedway.

I still think the best off-peninsula location for a stadium is Dartmouth Crossing.

Originally Posted by BravoZulu

What was the capacity at SMU when the CFL was here? From the brief look i got at it before my friend was nice enough to secure us a police escort back outside it seemed like at least 15000 and that was with temporary seating.

I think 11...

Originally Posted by Urban_Genius

Good luck, and enjoy the Grey Cup today!

And enjoy it I did! What a freaking win in the last moments by Montreal.

[BravoZulu]

1. The Commish speaks of a 7000 seat stadium in Quebec...in fact it holds 10,000 and sold out attendance for all Laval games, including standing, was about 14,000. Plus...the Federal Gov is funding a 3000 seat expansion. Sooooo....my vote is for a CFL game in La Ville De Quebec over Moncton PS: if such a game was between the Als & the Roughies, Rider Nation would come to town and show'em how to party

I have no doubt Rider Nation will show up, wherever we play! Quebec City is a great market for football, with great fans, and it would be great fun to play there. At this time, though, there is real momentum surrounding Moncton, and concrete discussions designed to make it happen, which would give us a bit of a foothold in another great football market, Atlantic Canada.

There is a surprising amount of talk about the expansion to Moncton on the website

http://www.cfl.ca/article/commissioner-q-and-a-part-ii

looks like there are 5 parts each with 10 questions from fans, worth a read if you have a chance. I'm not going to take up any more space in this thread posting them, but though it gave an interesting perspective of the fans and the leagues take on Moncton and for that matter the East coast.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by macgregor

I do think that you have come up some good ideas. Personally I think a field over the VIA rail tracks and integrated with the station and Westin hotel would be amazing. It would be similar to Penn Station/Madison Square Gardens. Parking and access could be made to work, but the cost for all of this might be unrealistic.

.

Political support is a must. Peter MacKay may be the answer as local support is very sketchy. I am sure there is no other municipality in North America with 400,000 people with no stadium at all. This would indicate we are doing something wrong and politicians need to recognize that.

[someone123]

What I find questionable is that there was a decent amount of support for the CWGs at the original cost of $750 million dollars or so, and one of the big selling points was the fact that Halifax would get a stadium out of the whole deal. Each individual level of government ultimately promised enough funding to build two stadiums each ($900M total), and a site was selected.

The high-level planning work has already been done for this...


Source - WHW Architects

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by someone123

What I find questionable is that there was a decent amount of support for the CWGs at the original cost of $750 million dollars or so, and one of the big selling points was the fact that Halifax would get a stadium out of the whole deal. Each individual level of government ultimately promised enough funding to build two stadiums each ($900M total), and a site was selected.

I think that something like this could be built on the peninsula. I think that they were only estimating about $100 million for the Commonwealth stadium. Much of the $750 million was for operating and security costs, and other venues. But if Halifax is to spend this much then the new Winnipeg proposal has more covered seats and in the future it might be possible to modify it to have it completely covered during the winter.

I don't think that you should assume that selection committees will come up with a good solution. For many decades stadiums were built as ultra-modern facilities to host baseball and football in one stadium and were put out in the suburbs. In the past 10 - 20 years planners have realized that this is not what people really want.

I think that it would be best for the spectators to decide what will be important in a stadium. I am proposing the following set of selection criteria so that others can add to it with their opinions as to what is important. Then each site and design can be evaluated based on these criteria.

Selection Criteria for a new stadium. How important are these items?
(10 is very important, 1 is not important)

Selection Criteria Items

Walkability
(How many people live within a 40 minute walkable radius of the stadium)

Visibility
(If a stadium isn't visible and in a location where it will be seen it will likely be forgotten and neglected)

Public Transit Accessible
(How easy is it for people without cars to get to?)

Parking Availability
(How many parking spaces are within a 30 minute walk of the stadium)

Highway Accessibility
(How easy is it for people in the suburbs and out of town, to get to by car)

Architecturally Appealing
(Some very expensive stadiums don't look good)

Event Ambiance
(Is it a good experience for spectators including times of inclement weather?)

Surrounding Conveniences
(Are there other amenities present, i.e. restaurants and hotels?)

Stadium Cost
(This probably should receive more weight than some of the other items. I would say that this will be the most important item.)

Stadium Maintenance
(Some designs will be more expensive to operate than others.)

Land Availability
(Sufficient land must be available for the stadium including some extra room for special events)

Flexibility
(How many different events can it be used for)

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Empire

.

Political support is a must. Peter MacKay may be the answer as local support is very sketchy. I am sure there is no other municipality in North America with 400,000 people with no stadium at all. This would indicate we are doing something wrong and politicians need to recognize that.

Perhaps the fact that the area has not elected a MP on the government side in ages has something to do with that. You'd think the people of Halifax would learn that there is nothing to be gained by continually reelecting the McDonoughs and Leslies of the world to represent us in Parliament, but nooooo....

[terrynorthend]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The Molson stadium is being expanded to 25,000 seats. Do you see any way of fitting 25,000 seats into the SMU stadium? If it can't be done then the most that the SMU stadium can be used for is the SMU Huskies. If that is the case then most likely they will go with a seating capacity of no more than 10,000 which will be a no-go for the CFL and will not be much good for concerts. I think that most likely the SMU stadium will be refurbished to be used just for the SMU Huskies not the CFL.

I absolutely believe 25K seats could be built into a Huskies Refurb. Look back to the comparative photo with Molson I posted. Each are at 50M resolution for side by side analysis. Like I said, it would involve a fairly extensive renovation to the Tower fitness facility and the rink, but assuming this happens, there is even more room at SMU than McGill.

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I disagree with you on a multi-purpose stadium having to be in the suburbs since almost every large city in North America has found ways to build stadiums in the city. Also, I am not too sure about the use of the term multi-purpose stadium since it is basically a football stadium that can be used for anything that can fit in a football stadium. In the past it referred to baseball/football stadiums but very seldom are these combined anymore. However, a football stadium is large enough for several uses such as concerts, soccer, even hockey and basketball (if covered).

I don't assert that other than SMU a stadium has to be in the suburbs. Just that it likely will be in the suburbs. By "multi-purpose park" I an implying that If a CFL owners group comes forth and makes a serious proposal, that group will want a facility that includes not only a main stadium with X number of permanent seats but also room for X number of temporary seats, a team fieldhouse and offices, a practice field and parking for X number of cars. I haven't seen a site on the peninsula yet that would accommodate all this, even the Windsor Park area. It really does take a lot of space. It would be a much easier road politically for an owner's group to look to the suburbs. The path of least resistance as they say.
Personally I'd prefer to see a peninsular facility. It would be unique and in keeping with the tradition and scale of Halifax, and I think the viable (albeit still unlikely) option is having SMU onboard with a CFL group.
Beyond the peninsula, my favorite alternative is Shannon Park. Anywhere else (DC, Bayer's Lake, Eastern Passage, Hammonds Plains, Sackville, Enfeild...) would be a distant and uninteresting location that would make Halifax like most other bland mid-sized North American city. A Wal-Mart stadium.