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  #821  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 2:41 PM
chrisvfr800i chrisvfr800i is offline
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Originally Posted by BonoboZill4 View Post
I'm not really sure how those two things are relevant to one another...
I thought the relationship would be obvious. The land has value because somebody wants it. SELL the land and use the proceeds to fund more police, or teachers, or whatever. Giving it away is so incredibly stupid only a government could think of it.


Oh, and BTW, I am a Chicago native and Chicago-area resident.
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  #822  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 2:59 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by chrisvfr800i View Post
I thought the relationship would be obvious. The land has value because somebody wants it. SELL the land and use the proceeds to fund more police, or teachers, or whatever. Giving it away is so incredibly stupid only a government could think of it.


Oh, and BTW, I am a Chicago native and Chicago-area resident.
The land is park district owned. The selling of the land would almost never happen. There's a reason the only organizations that have structures in park district land are essentially cultural assets like museums (except Soldier Field but you could argue this in another way). Right nearby is the Museum of Science and Industry in park district land, not a bunch of bars and restaurants or housing units. There's a damn good reason for this. Do you think the city is really dumb enough to not realize that they have thousands of acres right next to a giant lake that looks like an ocean which people would clamor to live right next to with no roads?

I think you are not properly understanding the lakefront park land reality of when the city realizes it's a "good" I idea to give up a little land. The city is not about to give this away to a non cultural entity with enough national or international exposure, nor is there enough to make the sacred lakefront park land magically disappear. All of this type of thinking will set Chicago back. If you truly want Chicago to progress and be even more world class, then you'll stop protecting things like parking lots.
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  #823  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 3:07 PM
chrisvfr800i chrisvfr800i is offline
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
The land is park district owned. The selling of the land would almost never happen. There's a reason the only organizations that have structures in park district land are essentially cultural assets like museums (except Soldier Field but you could argue this in another way). Right nearby is the Museum of Science and Industry in park district land, not a bunch of bars and restaurants or housing units. There's a damn good reason for this. Do you think the city is really dumb enough to not realize that they have thousands of acres right next to a giant lake that looks like an ocean which people would clamor to live right next to with no roads?

I think you are not properly understanding the lakefront park land reality of when the city realizes it's a "good" I idea to give up a little land. The city is not about to give this away to a non cultural entity with enough national or international exposure, nor is there enough to make the sacred lakefront park land magically disappear. All of this type of thinking will set Chicago back. If you truly want Chicago to progress and be even more world class, then you'll stop protecting things like parking lots.
You're right, I guess I don't understand.

I also don't understand how the wealthy Obama Foundation, who's namesake has made more than a meal out of his "Chicago Roots" would have the gall to extort free land and infrastructure from it under threat of building his edifice somewhere else.
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  #824  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisvfr800i View Post
You're right, I guess I don't understand.

I also don't understand how the wealthy Obama Foundation, who's namesake has made more than a meal out of his "Chicago Roots" would have the gall to extort free land and infrastructure from it under threat of building his edifice somewhere else.
I can understand your last comment, and that's another story. However, your first point makes no sense to how the lakefront park district land is handled. Think about it for a minute. What structures are on actual developable park land other than parks? Field Museum, Art Institute, Shedd Aquarium, Museum of Science and Industry, Lincoln Park Zoo, Pritzker Pavilion, Navy Pier, Huntington Bank Pavilion, Chicago History Museum, Lincoln Park Conservatory, Peggy Notebaert Nature Museum, Montrose Bird Sanctuary, Arie Crown Theater, etc. Other than the small golf courses at Jackson Park or near Irving Park Rd, what do all of these things have in common?

If the city really wanted a bunch of money, they could easily sell land to developers for Billions of dollars, but they won't because they understand the city. Sorry, but that specific point of yours really isn't valid. I can't tell if you like Obama or not, but I think a presidential museum is well within the range and theme of organizations of the exceedingly rare times the city is willing to give up a little of this land. They are not about to sell it to a bunch of private developers looking to build condos. Not going to happen. A museum is within the theme of when they do.

The lakefront Chicago has is amazing, and as I live in NYC now, I greatly miss it. These types of institutions make it better. I can't think of another city in the country that has their cultural institutions set up in such a good setting like this.
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  #825  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 3:25 PM
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I don't think giving the OPL parkland is a problem. It would be nice if they paid for some of the ancillary costs of doing so though.
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  #826  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 3:40 PM
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Guys, I'm gonna come out of the closet.

On this one, I've come around to agreeing with Mr. Downtown.

The more I think about it, the more I am rubbed the wrong way about Obama just coming into town stealing parkland to build his little personal monument. That douche-bag will move to Manhattan just like the elitist Clintons (ever estranging themselves ideologically and physically from the working Americans that once formed their party's base), yet "throws Chicago a bone" with this so-called "Presidential Center", but only if he can have it on his own terms. He could have gotten his own private land (God knows there's plenty of it down there!) to do this.

Plus, I"m not even all that into this silly little Presidential Center. It sounds like a crock of shit.
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  #827  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
I don't think giving the OPL parkland is a problem. It would be nice if they paid for some of the ancillary costs of doing so though.
Agree. I can agree to the part about them not paying for some things, but I think a library and Museum is well within the range of what goes into land like this.


The city is not about to sell any of it to developers, and that reality has absolutely nothing to do with them and their understanding of money.
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  #828  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 4:13 PM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Guys, I'm gonna come out of the closet.

On this one, I've come around to agreeing with Mr. Downtown.

The more I think about it, the more I am rubbed the wrong way about Obama just coming into town stealing parkland to build his little personal monument. That douche-bag will move to Manhattan just like the elitist Clintons (ever estranging themselves ideologically and physically from the working Americans that once formed their party's base), yet "throws Chicago a bone" with this so-called "Presidential Center", but only if he can have it on his own terms. He could have gotten his own private land (God knows there's plenty of it down there!) to do this.

Plus, I"m not even all that into this silly little Presidential Center. It sounds like a crock of shit.
Well, I'm glad your now out of the closet... But I'm not sure what the relevance is regarding the Obama's level of doucheness to the legitimacy of creating a center for America's first black president...
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  #829  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
Well, I'm glad your now out of the closet... But I'm not sure what the relevance is regarding the Obama's level of doucheness to the legitimacy of creating a center for America's first black president...
I think he is using his "from Chicago" and "first black president" narrative to get away from stealing park land, is what bugs me.

We can use the same analogy for Lucas, but for George Lucas he at least 1) didn't pit cities against eachother, he just left, 2) he wasn't expecting hundreds of millions of dollars from the city to build his self-monument, and 3) the Lucas Museum was a hell of a lot cooler than the Obama Center, which as it slowly unravels just looks like it will be NOTHING of interest.
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  #830  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 5:59 PM
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Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post

We can use the same analogy for Lucas, but for George Lucas he at least 1) didn't pit cities against eachother, he just left, 2) he wasn't expecting hundreds of millions of dollars from the city to build his self-monument, and 3) the Lucas Museum was a hell of a lot cooler than the Obama Center, which as it slowly unravels just looks like it will be NOTHING of interest.
Totally agree. Plus 4) Lucas was replacing a parking lot.

I bet I’ll visit the Obama center once and probably never be compelled to visit again. Forget about the lack of tons of original documents there. There won’t even be the gifts he’s received from foreign dignitaries.

I’m not philosophically opposed to giving up parkland. But for God’s sake it has to be for something.
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  #831  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 6:44 PM
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While I am irked at the fact that this will be a presidential center and not a presidential library (whatever the actual difference may entail, prestige notwithstanding), I still believe this building will be a cultural icon that will attract tourists and investment dollars to the south side. Jackson Park is an underutilized and empty park that is partially in a state of disrepair. This will give people a reason to go there. No one is complaining that other museums (Field, Shedd, AIC, MSI, Adler) are all located on Park District property.

Yes, it sucks that the Obama's are going to be in NY/DC, but the center of gravity of politics and political fundraising is in those two cities, and they have clearly chosen to remain active post presidency, unlike Bush who has hidden himself in shame from the world, creating really weird and crude paintings. The nature of their occupation as a proactive former first family pretty much dictates their primary residence.

I'm fine with the placement of this structure, especially now that they have put the parking fully underground. The design sucks, and hopefully will be tweaked for the better. Otherwise, lets get this thing done already. All the petty lawsuits and stumbling blocks are starting to get really annoying.
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  #832  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 6:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pilsenarch View Post
Well, I'm glad your now out of the closet... But I'm not sure what the relevance is regarding the Obama's level of doucheness to the legitimacy of creating a center for America's first black president...
Doucheness factor or the idea that it is for the First black President should really carry little weight when teasing out the primary issues at play.

For the very little it's worth I think Obama was a definite above average President who I generally respect (unlike our current). Regardless of anyone's sentiments towards him though one should ask why a VERY expensive infrastructure project that cost upwards of over $200 million needs to be done to accommodate a location chosen seemingly on whims. That type of money could practically build a whole new park in some sections of our city. It could go towards covering the Grant Park train tracks. It could go towards building the last 4miles on the north lakefront. It could go towards expanding the south lakefront. Was there any BIG push to close Cornell Drive and build this alternative route before the OPL project? Nope. All for a few extra acres of "park" inside what was already a park.

It's simply a bad value proposition being advocated by those who are trembling at the idea of losing out on another major institution if we don't roll out the red carpet to the demands of the BHO foundation. There has been no real transparency, no real open dialogue about where it is best for the CITY (not the Obamas) to put this Library.

As far as the talk about hypotheticals in the future.....Yes, IF there was to be one of the very few exceptions in which to give up some public or parkland this would be it IMO. However, that presumes that ANY exception should be made. When precedent isn't set and when rules seem malleable and transparency an afterthought (as it has been in the OPL case) then it very well could open the doors to more ambiguous cases down the road. After the last few years watching the federal government I don't put it past a corrupt demagogue populist Mayor or council to hand over a public/park to developers or business in the future and for them to honor shifting sentiments instead of adhering to legal writing or precedent which while overly rigid at least sets the rules clear. We can't simply assume to trust the next 200 years of Majors and city councils to do what is right all of the time in the future and not to sell this city piecemeal either for their own benefit or due to shortsightedness.

Last edited by nomarandlee; Aug 17, 2018 at 7:08 PM.
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  #833  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 6:54 PM
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Guys Obama isn't even "from Chicago", he's from Hawaii (or maybe... dun dun dun, KENYA). He just used Chicago as a political stepping stone and is now ready to throw away the used husk of his early political career. You know the guy could be dedicating a few years of his very long post-public life to eradicating gang violence on Chicago's South and West side. I mean the man is such an icon, particularly for the African American community, that he could actually single handedly put a dent in that problem. What would that say to young gang members focused on petty struggles over territory or drug deals if the first black president of the USA showed up whenever and wherever there was a flare up in violence and told them to knock it off and focus on this or that positive activity instead. How many youths life path could he radically alter just by showing up and talking to them for a bit when their temper is flaring because their buddy got shot?

But no, he's off "working on his legacy" which Trump is currently shitting all over anyways. A real legacy would be to stick a fork in a couple real world issues like Carter has done.



Also, lol no, the Parks District can't and won't sell land to developers. Talk about asking for a lawsuit lolololol.
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  #834  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 7:13 PM
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Obama and Chicago will always be connected, regardless of where he chooses to live from here forward. He launched his political career here, based his campaign here both for the 2008 and 2012 elections, and don’t forget his wife grew up on the south side.

As far as him being a douche? I think that’s really short sighted thinking that way. His presidential center will definitely be a tourist destination. He’s probably going to be the most famous and historically significant president of our generation. And having essentially a Obama “museum” of sorts will do far more for that park and that area of Chicago than if it didn’t happen.
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  #835  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 7:17 PM
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Obama and Chicago will always be connected, regardless of where he chooses to live from here forward. He launched his political career here, based his campaign here both for the 2008 and 2012 elections, and don’t forget his wife grew up on the south side.

As far as him being a douche? I think that’s really short sighted thinking that way. His presidential center will definitely be a tourist destination. He’s probably going to be the most famous and historically significant president of our generation. And having essentially a Obama “museum” of sorts will do far more for that park and that area of Chicago than if it didn’t happen.
This. Its an underused park that will now be a tourist destination. Literally every tourist guide on the city will include this museum as a top destination when visiting. It'll do more to bring investment dollars to the south side than almost any other individual project. The city will reap dividends many many many times over the forfeited cost of selling a slice of parkland to the Obama Foundation.
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  #836  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 8:30 PM
chrisvfr800i chrisvfr800i is offline
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Agree. I can agree to the part about them not paying for some things, but I think a library and Museum is well within the range of what goes into land like this.


The city is not about to sell any of it to developers, and that reality has absolutely nothing to do with them and their understanding of money.

So the city cannot SELL land to a private developer, but it absolutely can GIVE it to a private developer? (And spend what will eventually add up to a quarter billion dollars improving the surrounding infrastructure?)

This will need one hell of a gift shop for the city to ever make that up!!
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  #837  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 9:41 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisvfr800i View Post
So the city cannot SELL land to a private developer, but it absolutely can GIVE it to a private developer? (And spend what will eventually add up to a quarter billion dollars improving the surrounding infrastructure?)

This will need one hell of a gift shop for the city to ever make that up!!
Hotel taxes, sales taxes, additional CTA revenue/city rideshare fees, airport landing/takeoff fees from the additional tourist stream the presidential center generates will in time more than cover the infrastructure costs.

I would imagine the revenues of the gift shop would go to the Obama Foundation (since the city wouldn't own it) and go to funding the day to day operations of the center.
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  #838  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 10:22 PM
chrisvfr800i chrisvfr800i is offline
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Hotel taxes, sales taxes, additional CTA revenue/city rideshare fees, airport landing/takeoff fees from the additional tourist stream the presidential center generates will in time more than cover the infrastructure costs.

I would imagine the revenues of the gift shop would go to the Obama Foundation (since the city wouldn't own it) and go to funding the day to day operations of the center.
To point 1: Maybe you'll see some of that for a few years. After that, the majority of the visitors will be schoolchildren. Schoolchildren are notoriously cheap when it comes to spending tourism dollars.

To point 2: Sarcasm. (Jesus!)
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  #839  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 10:57 PM
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To point 1: Maybe you'll see some of that for a few years. After that, the majority of the visitors will be schoolchildren. Schoolchildren are notoriously cheap when it comes to spending tourism dollars.
You never know. People with extended stays visiting the city may still add it to their itinerary, long into the future after Obama's presidency has faded into the past. It can piggy back off the MSI, to which it is adjacent, and form something of a Museum Campus South.

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To point 2: Sarcasm. (Jesus!)
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  #840  
Old Posted Aug 17, 2018, 10:59 PM
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I'm not 100% sure about the law itself, but I don't think they can actually sell the land for a legit price - maybe like $1. I think that's what they did for George Lucas. There are numerous laws set up to protect the lakefront's park land (and maybe just park land in general) in Chicago. Overall, it's done very well - and very rarely have things like this happened, and almost always it's for some sort of cultural institution which would eventually get money back indirectly to the city. Again you can look at what's in the lakefront park land and see 95% of it is categorized this way. I don't have a problem with a Presidential Library/Museum going in something like this. I think if it were anything other than a cultural type of institution, I would totally be against it personally.

On the other hand, in my mind is a thought about how Obama is connected to Chicago but he also is oddly quiet on some issues. That is pretty political though so I won't get into that, even though I like the guy , but he has raised eyebrows in my mind about his supposed strong Chicago ties these days.
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