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  #1541  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 6:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Because the existing Hudson tubes already desperately need refurbishment and Gateway is supposed to provide a alternate route for trains while this work is ongoing.

A tunnel from Hoboken would help (some) NJT lines but would not be useful for Amtrak. And that is the other reason - an NJT-only project has to compete for transit funds whereas a tunnel that Amtrak will use can be funded from intercity rail funds, maybe even justify a dedicated appropriation from Congress based on its “national importance”.
National or local importance should be justify by ridership.
Of Amtrak's 30 million plus ridership pre covid, per NY Penn Wiki:
Amtrak has 10.4 million passengers
NJT has 27.3 million passengers
LIRR has 69.7 million passengers

Of the total 107.4 million passengers at NY Penn, Amtrak at 10.4 million passengers makes up less than 10%. Dropping LIRR from the total, with 37.7 million passengers using the tunnels under the Hudson River, Amtrak's 10.4 million passengers makes up 27.5%.

I'll admit 10.4 million passengers is a significant number, but compared to over 90% of the riders using NY Penn being local, and 72.5% of the passengers in the tunnels are riding NJT trains, that is a tough sale suggesting it is of national importance.

Over 62 million passengers use JFK airport. With its higher passengers, would you not suggest it is far more important nationally than all of Amtrak?
Over 29 million passengers use LaGuardia airport. With equivalent Amtrak national passengers, would you not suggest it is as important as all of Amtrak?
Over 9.9 million tourists visited Hawaii by airlines and cruise ships. Compared to Hawaii significantly smaller population, would you suggest that airlines and cruise ships are of national importance?
Over 1 million passengers visit Alaska by cruise ships. Compared to Alaska significantly smaller population, would you suggest that cruise ships are of national importance?

During the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy flooding the tunnels, did NYC intercity travel to other cities within the USA or internationally come to a complete and utter halt?
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  #1542  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 2:49 PM
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I strongly dislike the Hudson Terminal plans since it just creates another very expensive single user stub terminal in a place we should not be building them.

Bore a new two track tunnel from the Hoboken Terminal to the tail tracks of the ESA. This would provide Amtrak redundancy for NEC service between Newark and Sunnyside for when things go awry at Penn. NJT gets midtown west access. Find something to give LIRR for the trouble that costs less than a new terminal in Manhattan. Treat the ESA as a fully thru running station. Yes rolling stock traction power compatibility is an issue but that's much more cheaply resolved than billions for a new station that will take 15 years to happen.
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  #1543  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 4:09 PM
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^ Interesting idea, ideally you could have a station at Washington Square so people could change to the subways to head downtown or to Brooklyn.

It might be easier to connect ESA's stub tracks to Atlantic Terminal, though... that way LIRR would control the whole facility. Or you could combine the two into a four-track tunnel with access to LIRR and MNRR at the north, and NJT/LIRR Atlantic at the south. Then Manhattan has a north/south rail trunk to complement the east-west one thru Penn.
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  #1544  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^ Interesting idea, ideally you could have a station at Washington Square so people could change to the subways to head downtown or to Brooklyn.

It might be easier to connect ESA's stub tracks to Atlantic Terminal, though... that way LIRR would control the whole facility. Or you could combine the two into a four-track tunnel with access to LIRR and MNRR at the north, and NJT/LIRR Atlantic at the south. Then Manhattan has a north/south rail trunk to complement the east-west one thru Penn.
The idea of an intermediate station between Grand Central and Hoboken in lower Manhattan with good subway connections is very tempting but I'm also pretty leery for cost and schedule reasons. The MTA's insatiable lust for huge deep cavern stations gives me a lot of pause.


Connecting to Atlantic would be easier but less useful than a trans-Hudson link since East River transit is much less constrained. It would avoid turf war but I'm not even sure LIRR is interested in that given other potential uses for billions in funding. Though if that was the cost of letting NJT/Amtrak also in then I'd be fine with it.

Last edited by k1052; Nov 23, 2020 at 6:24 PM.
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  #1545  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 6:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^ Interesting idea, ideally you could have a station at Washington Square so people could change to the subways to head downtown or to Brooklyn.

It might be easier to connect ESA's stub tracks to Atlantic Terminal, though... that way LIRR would control the whole facility. Or you could combine the two into a four-track tunnel with access to LIRR and MNRR at the north, and NJT/LIRR Atlantic at the south. Then Manhattan has a north/south rail trunk to complement the east-west one thru Penn.

This is frighteningly similar to what i was planning on posting but with one key difference. I would have the NJT Hoboken tunnel forgo a weird isolated terminal on the West Side Highway and instead cross Manhattan under Canal or Houston with one or two intermediate Manhattan stations at subways, turning southeast weaving under the vicinity of the Baruch housing projects and shooting under the East River, skirting the southwest side of Brooklyn Navy Yard including a subterranean layover yard and terminating at a vastly expanded and reimagined Atlantic Terminal which hopefully one day would be the second-to-last stop on the JFK superexpress to lower Manhattan. Obviously this would cost an extraordinary amount of money and require interagency cooperation but i believe if NY is to continue to thrive the region has to start thinking regionally. Thoughts?

On a side note amongst many possible sidenotes, i'd like to see PATH split at the curve at Sixth Ave and have one line head across Manhattan under 9th St with an Astor Place station with subway connections to 6 R W and continuing to Tompkins Square Park where a large station under the park could be constructed big enough for extra tracks for layover trains OR turn north under Ave B and terminating near the ConEd generating plant that when decommissioned is poised to become a huge redevelopment opportunity OR turn north under First Ave terminating at the southwest corner of ST-PCV w/ L connection or even continuing to vicinity of the UN.

I could keep going but I'll stop...
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Last edited by Busy Bee; Nov 23, 2020 at 7:31 PM.
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  #1546  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 3:11 PM
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I'm thinking maybe this Hoboken tunnel concept conversation ought to be moved to the NY transportation thread??

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  #1547  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 9:58 PM
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Getting back to the origin of this discussion, yesterday Cuomo disclosed a study indicating that the Hudson tubes could be repaired while in use, like the L train tunnels were repaired. From NY's standpoint, most of the benefits come from the repairs (by staving off catastrophe) and not from extra capacity. The ideal situation for NY, then, is to get the repairs done independently and let NJ and the Feds figure out how to pay for Gateway without NY's help.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...3ym-story.html

New Jersey leaders are outraged that New York doesn't want to subsidize their commutes...

Might be a moot point though if Biden orders DOT to release funding for full Gateway.
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  #1548  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2020, 12:10 AM
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^ I'm not sure I would describe it as NY subsidizing NJ commuters. That would be akin to a mall tenant being told it's not in their best interest to maintain or expand the mall parking lot. NY's economy benefits enormously by the influx into Penn from NJ, like that even needs to be said.
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  #1549  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2020, 5:07 AM
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^ I'm not sure I would describe it as NY subsidizing NJ commuters. That would be akin to a mall tenant being told it's not in their best interest to maintain or expand the mall parking lot. NY's economy benefits enormously by the influx into Penn from NJ, like that even needs to be said.
Sure but New York has multiple and competing priorities for its limited transit dollars. Second Ave, LGA AirTrain, ADA upgrades, CBTC rollout, etc.

For NJ and Amtrak, the Hudson tunnel situation outstrips everything else.
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  #1550  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2020, 3:06 PM
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Yeah the timing of this cannot be happenstance. Cuomo wants to at a minimum delay any major NY contribution for Gateway.
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  #1551  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2020, 3:56 AM
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All,

You can sign the petition. This is for high-speed rail all over America.

https://www.hsrail.org/2020-federal-...nPNNtKh5DYPscU
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  #1552  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2020, 11:07 PM
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A Cascadia bullet train: Time to move to next level or ‘kill this thing right now’?

https://www.opb.org/article/2020/12/...ransportation/

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.....

- A new government report on high-speed rail in the Pacific Northwest recommends that Oregon, Washington and British Columbia formalize their interest in a Cascadia bullet train by creating an independent body to plan and eventually build it. But a critic associated with a conservative think tank responded that the region should take heed of California’s high-speed rail woes and put a spike in the Cascadia bullet train ambitions. --- The new study by hired consultants examined governance and financing options. This report builds on previous state-sponsored studies that asserted there are sufficient demand and a business case for trains running at up to 250 miles per hour between Portland, Seattle and Vancouver, British Columbia.

- The consultants’ report said one of the first jobs of the coordinating entity should be to select a technology for the “ultra-high-speed ground transportation” corridor. The study laid out multiple options including traditional high-speed rail, magnetic levitation trains or a hyperloop, in which passengers zip along in capsules that are propelled electrically down sealed low air pressure tubes. In any case, the aspired travel times are about one hour between Portland and Seattle and another hour from Seattle to Vancouver, British Columbia. nother job of the coordinating entiThe envisioned top speed of 250 mph for the Cascadia high-speed train project is faster than other rail services on the horizon in North America.ty would be to build a broader coalition of support and "ensure deep and equitable local engagement across the corridor."

.....



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  #1553  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2020, 11:56 PM
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I am generally supportive of a high speed rail line between Vancouver and Seattle. I have more concerns about the portion between Seattle and Portland, as the distance is a little farther, and the terrain seems more difficult.
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  #1554  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2021, 8:59 PM
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Is This High-Speed Train the First Megaproject of the Biden Era?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...n?srnd=citylab

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.....

- It is an audacious vision for high-speed rail in the Northeast: new tunnels out of New York City and under the Long Island Sound, routing trains up through Hartford, Providence and Boston. With electric locomotives that top 200 miles per hour, travel time between New York and Boston would be slashed to 100 minutes — two hours quicker than current Acela service, the fastest train that Amtrak now runs. Construction would consume 20 years and require building the largest underwater tunnel in North America. The price tag: $105 billion.

.....



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  #1555  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2021, 10:42 PM
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These buildouts of rail networks in the Midwest and Southeast would be incredible. Given that these are both politically important regions, building even pieces of this could lead to a virtuous cycle - high quality intercity rail gets built in GA, MI, MI, and NC, voters there decide they like it and want more connectivity, and presidential/senatorial/gubernatorial candidates get on board with more buildout.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2021/02/...y-it-deserves/

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/..._corridors.pdf
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  #1556  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 11:36 AM
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These buildouts of rail networks in the Midwest and Southeast would be incredible. Given that these are both politically important regions, building even pieces of this could lead to a virtuous cycle - high quality intercity rail gets built in GA, MI, MI, and NC, voters there decide they like it and want more connectivity, and presidential/senatorial/gubernatorial candidates get on board with more buildout.
2035, 2045, and 2055 building programs are stretched way too far out into the future to expect a supportive political atmosphere to remain the same. The expansion for anything requiring so much capital expenses and subsidies must be much quicker. If 2035 was the target date for all projects, not 2055, completion of new routes and services must be done each and every year to sustain the momentum. This plan is doomed for ultimate failure because it does not provide the end result fast enough, nor does it provide new services on a yearly basis.
In the next 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, 32, and 36 years a new "national" election will be held to determine the political and economic goals for the immediately following 4 years. Keeping an Amtrak expansion program active through 9 election cycles is unrealistic. Even the Panama Canal had to survive political and economic second look after just one "national" election cycle and a new administration. Could it have survived 9 cycles?
The buildout of the Interstate Highway system took 30 years, but each and every intermediate year hundreds of miles of it was built and opened for use. Delivering projects every year was important for it, and it will be important for an expanded national passenger rail network as well. Again I repeat, this new strategic plan to keep Amtrak even relevant to most of America lacks the pace to do so.
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  #1557  
Old Posted Mar 5, 2021, 8:04 PM
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Could An Infrastructure Stimulus Fund High-Speed Rail for New England?

https://mass.streetsblog.org/2021/03...r-new-england/

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- A growing alliance of business organizations, mayors, and transit advocates from seven northeastern states are drumming up support for major federal investment in a new regional rail network built around a new high-speed rail line between New York City, Hartford, Providence, and Boston. The North Atlantic Rail initiative is seeking a $105 billion investment for “a rail-enabled economic transformation strategy grounded in the pursuit of environmental justice that creates one integrated market for ideas, capital, and talent across the economic geography encompassing New York City, Boston, and all of the smaller cities of New England,” according to the initiative’s website. The twelve-figure price tag might seem daunting, but with the possibility of significant federal investment and partnerships among seven states, advocates think that it’s within the realm of possibility. --- Phase two would build a 175-225 mph high-speed rail line on a new corridor between Long Island and Providence, including a new tunnel under Long Island Sound to link New York City with New Haven, Conn.

.....



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  #1558  
Old Posted Mar 12, 2021, 8:37 PM
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Probably not going anywhere but:

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Seth Moulton reintroduces bill to create $205 billion high-speed rail across the U.S.
By STEFAN GELLER | sgeller@lowellsun.com | Lowell Sun
PUBLISHED: March 12, 2021 at 7:27 a.m. | UPDATED: March 12, 2021 at 7:28 a.m.

LOWELL – In an effort to create millions of new jobs and fix infrastructure issues across the country, U.S. Rep. Seth Moulton reintroduced a bill to Congress on Thursday that would invest $205 billion over five years to create a nationwide high-speed rail network . . . .

Moulton, who represents Massachusetts’s 6th congressional district and the Greater Lowell towns of Billerica, Bedford, Burlington, Tewksbury and Wilmington, first outlined his vision for the ambitious project in May, when he released a 30-page white paper explaining how a national rail system would not only make trips between major cities quicker and easier than driving, but would also lower carbon emissions, mitigate weather delays and even reduce the number of travel-related deaths.

While the plan had little chance of progressing at the time, as Republicans were in control of all three branches of government, the recent shift in party dominance combined with Moulton’s appointment to the House Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure in December breathed new life into the proposal, culminating in the American High-Speed Rail Act.

Moulton originally announced the bill in December and it expired when the 116th Congress ended, which his spokesman, Tim Biba, said was done to “plant a flag on the issue.” Now that the coronavirus relief bill has passed, Biba said they are reintroducing it to influence the upcoming infrastructure debate in Washington.

According to Moulton, Representatives Brendan Boyle and Mike Doyle of Pennsylvania and Suzan DelBene of Washington have joined him as original sponsors of the bill . . . .

The congressman said the project would be funded through grants administered by the Federal Railroad Administration and would prioritize grant applicants based on “equity, resilience, sustainability, economic development potential and climate,” as well as if their region is not serviced by the aviation industry.

It would also develop comprehensive safety regulations to reduce costs and expedite development, Moulton said.
https://www.lowellsun.com/2021/03/12...c-0c5219c13f82
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  #1559  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2021, 5:45 PM
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Have you seen that high-speed rail map on Twitter? Gen Z is hoping President Biden has.

https://www.vox.com/2021/3/10/223033...meme-buttigieg

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  #1560  
Old Posted Mar 13, 2021, 9:01 PM
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member of gen z here... i hate that map so much.

i would say this map was probably made by a high-schooler, but consideriing i doodled better HSR maps than that when i was in high school, i think it mustve been a middle schooler
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