Suburban typologies

[Docere]

Just a sketch:


Northeast Corridor (i.e. NYC, Boston, Philadelphia)

Railroad suburbs and industrial satellite cities, towns retain distinctive character, some early postwar mid to low density suburbs,no edge cities or post-1980 suburbs, very low density estate country, looser boundary between suburban/exurban/rural

Midwestern (i.e. Chicago, Detroit)

Mostly postwar mid to low density suburbs but some old railroad/streetcar suburbs and more edge cities

Southeast (i.e. Atlanta)

Little pre-war, largely post-1980, low density and super-sprawly, largely unincorporated

West/Texas/Florida

Little pre-war and largely post-1980, higher density "cookie cutter" suburbs, mix of very large cities and unincorporated, "harder" boundary between suburban/exurban/rural

Canadian

Like the Western typology but with more apartments and transit and no unincorporated communities

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Midwestern (i.e. Chicago, Detroit)

Mostly postwar mid to low density suburbs but some old railroad/streetcar suburbs and more edge cities

chicago's pre-war railroad suburbia was roughly as expansive (relatively speaking) as any place back east.


chicago MSA 1940: ~4.2M

chicago city proper 1940: ~3.4M


so there were roughly 800K people living in pre-war suburban chicagoland in 1940.

combined with all of the streetcar suburbia (aka "the bungalow belt") that is technically inside city limits, we're talking about a metric shit-ton of pre-war "suburban" development in chicagoland.

[Centropolis]

you could split hairs into old midwest and new midwest. old midwest is more pre-war-railroad suburbs and industrial satellites - new midwest is more like either texas (huge municipal borders and “super suburb” municipalities built on the square mile grid) or southeast style with randomized mcmansion zones built around/on steep topography and huge retail areas (far west st louis where it runs into ozarks hills is like this). kansas city kind of emulates dallas a bit on the sw side, lots of square mile retail zones, vague “sw style” architecture and latino immigrant presence everywhere - lots of dining options and heavy labor presence.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

chicago's pre-war railroad suburbia was roughly as expansive (relatively speaking) as any place back east.


chicago MSA 1940: ~4.2M

chicago city proper 1940: ~3.4M


so there were roughly 800K people living in pre-war suburban chicagoland in 1940.

combined with all of the streetcar suburbia (aka "the bungalow belt") that is technically inside city limits, we're talking about a metric shit-ton of pre-war suburban development in chicagoland.

st. louis also had 100s of thousands of people living in pre-war neighborhoods outside of city limits in 1940. i don’t recall my old estimate now. i want to say 2-300,000.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Docere

Just a sketch:


Northeast Corridor (i.e. NYC, Boston, Philadelphia)

Railroad suburbs and industrial satellite cities, towns retain distinctive character, some early postwar mid to low density suburbs,no edge cities or post-1980 suburbs, very low density estate country, looser boundary between suburban/exurban/rural

Midwestern (i.e. Chicago, Detroit)

Mostly postwar mid to low density suburbs but some old railroad/streetcar suburbs and more edge cities

Southeast (i.e. Atlanta)

Little pre-war, largely post-1980, low density and super-sprawly, largely unincorporated

West/Texas/Florida

Little pre-war and largely post-1980, higher density "cookie cutter" suburbs, mix of very large cities and unincorporated, "harder" boundary between suburban/exurban/rural

Canadian

Like the Western typology but with more apartments and transit and no unincorporated communities

There is a lot of overlap in cities that were quickly developing suburbs between 1940 and 1970. For instance, the storyline of the Wonder Years tv show was sometimes set in New York and sometimes California. The house they used for the Arnold home looks like it could've easily been L.A., Long Island, or Chicago.

But yeah, as you note, the northeast has almost no full neighborhoods that were developed post 1980, while most other regions built a ton of new housing between 1980 and 2007. The Bay Area doesn't seem to have a lot of post-1980 housing either, but probably a bit more than the NY area.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

There is a lot of overlap in cities that were quickly developing suburbs between 1940 and 1970. For instance, the storyline of the Wonder Years tv show was sometimes set in New York and sometimes California. The house they used for the Arnold home looks like it could've easily been L.A., Long Island, or Chicago.

But yeah, as you note, the northeast has almost no full neighborhoods that were developed post 1980, while most other regions built a ton of new housing between 1980 and 2007. The Bay Area doesn't seem to have a lot of post-1980 housing either, but probably a bit more than the NY area.

that bay area housing is all to the far east/northeast, scattered along the 101 in the north bay, and of course way down south. most of the big swaths of spanking new stuff seems to be east, though.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

st. louis also had 100s of thousands of people living in pre-war neighborhoods outside of city limits in 1940. i don’t recall my old estimate now. i want to say 2-300,000.

st. louis county by itself had a population of ~275k in 1940.

[Docere]

Chicago is big enough to have extensive railroad suburbs as well as edge cities. Different enough from Northeast Corridor though to not put in that group.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Docere

Chicago is big enough to have extensive railroad suburbs as well as edge cities. Different enough from Northeast Corridor though to not put in that group though.

oh yeah, there are certainly differences. not only the edge city thing, but chicagoland also has WAY less of that ultra-low density "sprawl in a forest" typology that you see in the NE, mostly because chicagoland doesn't have much forested land on its edges. it's mainly just cornfields that are easily plowed into slightly higher-density stereotypical cul-de-sac sprawl. a little bit denser, but generally WAY uglier.


FWIW, here's a decent map showing a general chicagoland development timeline.

dark purple is developed by 1900

light purple is developed by 1950

brownish beige is developed by 2000

the commuter rail lines are also shown to give a good sense of the extent of chicago's railroad suburbia.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

st. louis county by itself had a population of ~275k in 1940.

ah, yeah then theres “NW Indiana SW” to account for. east st. louis proper was around 75k but there are a slew of pre-war municipalities and industrial satellites nearby. may be looking at over 400k outside of stl city in ‘40.

[Docere]

Median Year Dwelling Built

Buffalo 1955
New York 1957
Pittsburgh 1957
Boston 1958
Cleveland 1959
Milwaukee 1962
Philadelphia 1962
Detroit 1965
San Francisco 1965
Los Angeles 1966
Chicago 1967
St. Louis 1970
Baltimore 1972
Cincinnati 1972
San Jose 1973
New Orleans 1974
Kansas City 1975
Columbus 1977
Indianapolis 1977
Minneapolis 1977
San Diego 1978
Portland 1979
Washington 1979
Denver 1980
Miami 1980
Seattle 1980
Tampa 1982
Riverside 1984
Houston 1985
Nashville 1985
Dallas 1986
Jacksonville 1986
Charlotte 1989
Atlanta 1990
Orlando 1991
Phoenix 1990
Austin 1991
Raleigh 1993
Las Vegas 1995

[Steely Dan]

^ yet another piece of evidence for LA not neatly fitting into the "sunbelt sprawler" box.

[Emprise du Lion]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

ah, yeah then theres “NW Indiana SW” to account for. east st. louis proper was around 75k but there are a slew of pre-war municipalities and industrial satellites nearby. may be looking at over 400k outside of stl city in ‘40.

The metro was far more balanced in terms of suburban population breakdown between Missouri and Illinois back in 1940. St. Clair County had 167k and Madison County had 149k.

In comparison, St. Charles County had 26k in 1940.

[Crawford]

That LA number can't be right, can it?

The median year-built for LA MSA is really 1966? Older median year built than Chicago, even though Chicago was much bigger in the 1960's and now LA is much bigger? That doesn't make sense.

[Docere]

A lot of the post-1980 suburbia is in the Inland Empire I guess (median year built: 1984).

[Camelback]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ yet another piece of evidence for LA not neatly fitting into the "sunbelt sprawler" box.

Yeah going off that, rainy cloudy Seattle is more sunbelt-y than LA.

What is the source of information, I'd like to read about it.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That LA number can't be right, can it?

The median year-built for LA MSA is really 1966? Older median year built than Chicago, even though Chicago was much bigger in the 1960's and now LA is much bigger? That doesn't make sense.

Immediate postwar housing boom, maybe? LOTS of Truman-era and Eisenhower-era tract homes were built within Los Angeles proper alone (let alone LA County) after WWII.

San Fernando Valley, 1950. Associated Press.


Lakewood, CA, early 1950s. City of Lakewood.


The Levittowns got all the press, but Lakewood, California was a bigger "instant suburb," if I remember reading somewhere correctly. And it was the first town in LA County built without a traditional downtown, built around a regional shopping mall.

City of Lakewood


City of Lakewood

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion

The metro was far more balanced in terms of suburban population breakdown between Missouri and Illinois back in 1940. St. Clair County had 167k and Madison County had 149k.

In comparison, St. Charles County had 26k in 1940.

wow, ok so we are looking at 600k + outside of st. louis city limits, damn!

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Camelback

Yeah going off that, rainy cloudy Seattle is more sunbelt-y than LA.

What is the source of information, I'd like to read about it.

http://www.usa.com/

A bit dated - based on ACS 2010-14. But wouldn't change the relative positions much I don't think.

[Docere]

Checking with ACS 2019 1 year data - Chicago MSA (1970), Los Angeles MSA (1967). So it lines up.

https://data.census.gov/