PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Yeah, I think we realize this isn't a small city. I think most of the folks are pro-development on this site, and that's obvious. But not all development is sensible development. And, this isn't putting up a building a residential or office tower in a small section and dense part of the city. For an arena, each city and location has to be studied for its merits, how it affects the surrounding neighborhood, and how it will change the character of the neighborhoods. There's no one size fits all. Look at all the pics of stadiums/arenas SEPTA put up and you can tell those look different than a 5 block radius of Market East. For the folks that are trying to do this deal, their modis operenda is to sell game tickets and to use the arena to make more money for other events. That's what billionaires want to do in this space. They aren't doing this to be white knights to save this part of the city and they aren't in the business of considering the human costs if things go sideways after it gets built. They get to walk away from the human costs but still sell more tickets. Selling tickets is what they only care about. If this does get built, it won't be reversible nor any of the negative effects. Once it's done, it can't be undone.

(Also I understand we all here care about the wellbeing of the city this is just debate & discussion)

Let's be real, we all go to work or do things for money. Let's not act like a business wanting to make money is illegal or wrong.

In fact isn't this proposal replacing a failed investment? Huh seems like making money is important to keep the lights on, paying employee's and keeping the structure maintained and updated.

A failing or ok area is just as bad for everyone.

Lets go for this example since this is a big development, Your same argument is the one people used when the proposals for Liberty Place were first brought forward, the city did not have "Supertall" Skyscrapers at that point, and that density was frightening to some, the Construction of Liberty Place would completely change the fabric of Center city, the amount of density, traffic, and people that would bring would ruin the atmosphere of CC wouldn't it?

No It didn't, it rejuvenated the area, the city, brought investments, new companies, people, & a new feel for the city, Liberty Place is one of the reasons we are all here today speaking about the great Philadelphia.

Had The city listened to the Naysayers back then the city may not be half of what it is today.

As you can see from the renders above, the arena has more street interaction then what's currently there, and it looks good.

Thats not including the amount of professional jobs, from media, photographers, gyms, trainers, people, celebrities and investment from the arena.

Its a no brainer WIN WIN.

[IMG]sky07 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]IMG_1317 by Tony Valuez, on Flickr[/IMG]

[SEFTA]

Any renderings of the side streets or the rear?

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Any renderings of the side streets or the rear?

The rear won't really face a street, but a small , barely noticed/used alley on Cuthburt as Filbert would be struck to fit the arena, it would end where the bus terminal is. The northern part of the arena where the grey hound terminal is would likely be where is likely where most of the loading would be done, as well as many of the team facilities due to it not being the "main square" if you will because the Garden Inn hotel straddle's 11th St and cuts into the site slightly. The main box of the site would be the core of the arena. You can sort of see 10th St in the second rendering posted. Looks decent, bit a wall for a second but there's a second entrance. Not too dissimilar to how it is today. 11th St looks a bit wall-ish (hard to tell with the rendering) but honestly it's quite wall-ish today...

If the final development interacts with the street like the renderings, it'd say it actually interacts with the street better than how it does today.

[SEFTA]

~

[SEFTA]

You understand their reluctance.
With every event comes an army of delivery trucks.
It will have a huge impact on the community.
The storefronts are an improvement.
Is there really a commitment to get it done?
No where has one been placed in this tight of an urban space
That I can think of.
Even MSG has some room around it
It deserves to be scrutinized.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

The rear won't really face a street, but a small , barely noticed/used alley on Cuthburt as Filbert would be struck to fit the arena, it would end where the bus terminal is. The northern part of the arena where the grey hound terminal is would likely be where is likely where most of the loading would be done, as well as many of the team facilities due to it not being the "main square" if you will because the Garden Inn hotel straddle's 11th St and cuts into the site slightly. The main box of the site would be the core of the arena. You can sort of see 10th St in the second rendering posted. Looks decent, bit a wall for a second but there's a second entrance. Not too dissimilar to how it is today. 11th St looks a bit wall-ish (hard to tell with the rendering) but honestly it's quite wall-ish today...

If the final development interacts with the street like the renderings, it'd say it actually interacts with the street better than how it does today.

100% Better then todays current conditions.

[justremember]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

It deserves to be scrutinized.

Which can’t be done by people who refuse to even consider it.

[mja]

Not sure about the materials and the design is just a box with a little visual interest added to the facade with the alternating black and white puzzle piece pattern, but otherwise there's a lot to like about this project.

The seven-story building, located at 1314 Spring Garden St., will include more than 1,000 square feet of fitness space and almost 1,600 square feet of retail, which VBC would prefer to be a small commercial business as opposed to a large scale restaurant.

The building will sit almost on top of the Broad Street Line’s Spring Garden station and have 28 parking spaces and storage for 60-to-80 bicycles. It is a short walk from the Rail Park and a bit of a longer hike to Chinatown’s restaurants or City Hall.

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20230322.html

[cardeza]

I am totally baffled by the people who think that an arena that will be vacant during the daytime is going to radically change Market East vs the FDP. It won't. You can replace one box with a larger box but at the end of the day you will not see any additional daytime activation or improved aesthetics by dropping an arena box at 11th and market. It will look great at night on TV when thousands of fans are pouring in- it will not during the middle of the day when tourists and office workers are out an about and are looking a multi block dead zone.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I am totally baffled by the people who think that an arena that will be vacant during the daytime is going to radically change Market East vs the FDP. It won't. You can replace one box with a larger box but at the end of the day you will not see any additional daytime activation or improved aesthetics by dropping an arena box at 11th and market. It will look great at night on TV when thousands of fans are pouring in- it will not during the middle of the day when tourists and office workers are out an about and are looking a multi block dead zone.

I’m not a big fan of this proposal either, but as to daytime street activation, it’s a matter of what other uses they embed at street level — retail, restaurants, what have you — and what tenant mix that entails.

[Justin7]

If I'm a tourist I'm more likely to grab a drink at the sports bar in the render than I am to visit a suburban mall in the middle of the city.

I also understand the way the energy from a winning team in a sports crazed city overflows into the surrounding area, and not just on game days. Philly loves its teams but the sea of parking lots and highway separating the sports complex serve a weird dampening buffer.

Personally, I despise the current site. Parking lots are way up on my list of least favorite things. I dislike going there. It's kind of depressing to watch all of the energy after a game dissipate into... traffic. I'm a fan who rarely goes to games. If the proposed arena were built tomorrow I'd be a season ticket holder.

I believe on game nights (or concerts or whatever) you'd see people showing up directly after work, grabbing food and drinks nearby, spending money, having a good time. Others will stick around after the game, more food and drinks, more money. And yes, I think that would spur further development on Market and improve the area.

I also think it will reduce the number of people driving, which is another big plus. Though we need to fix SEPTA, I also think the arena makes us more likely to do so.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by mja

Not sure about the materials and the design is just a box with a little visual interest added to the facade with the alternating black and white puzzle piece pattern, but otherwise there's a lot to like about this project.


https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20230322.html

Yes, much better than the proposed storage facility and good infill with retail, but...

Should be 10+ stories.
The façade appears to be entirely ribbed metal panels.
No street trees and an uninviting ground level along Spring Garden.
2 curb cuts on Spring Garden.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by justremember

Which can’t be done by people who refuse to even consider it.

Precisely.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

I believe they're referring to the destruction of Penn station to build MSG, not that MSG is inherently bad. They're making the distinction that destroying the Mall for the arena isn't really a problem like destroying Penn Station was.

Ah. Thanks. lol.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Should be 10+ stories.

Philly desperately needs a zoning overhaul. It likely couldn't be any taller

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Philly desperately needs a zoning overhaul. It likely couldn't be any taller

Philly just had a zoning overhaul not even a decade ago.

City Council needs to stop meddling in zoning.

Perhaps maybe the economics for this developer couldn't support a bigger building. You only need to go as high as you need to go to support the returns you want on your investment. Anything more is risk, especially in this environment, where the regional banks who fund most of these developments are under an intense amount of pressure and scrutiny.

But yes, in a fairy tale world everything should be a super tall.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I am totally baffled by the people who think that an arena that will be vacant during the daytime is going to radically change Market East vs the FDP. It won't. You can replace one box with a larger box but at the end of the day you will not see any additional daytime activation or improved aesthetics by dropping an arena box at 11th and market. It will look great at night on TV when thousands of fans are pouring in- it will not during the middle of the day when tourists and office workers are out an about and are looking a multi block dead zone.

People keep forgetting arenas can be used for many other events that the convention center can't do or won't do, as well as the development of the arena will activate the dead street that is across from it, so it will 100% liven the whole Market East up, lets not forget that this arena also brings the area up.

This is a different game then a football Stadium or baseball field, this is a basketball arena which is much more city like then the other two sports, you'll see much more Suit, and Tie and the such at the arena as well.

I'm also baffled by people who think an arena wouldn't bring Philly up to standard with other cities.

Should we also have stuck to buildings being no taller than William Penn's cap as well?

[PurpleWhiteOut]

There's required parking for CMX-4 per #units which is a big limiting factor

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Philly just had a zoning overhaul not even a decade ago.

City Council needs to stop meddling in zoning.

Perhaps maybe the economics for this developer couldn't support a bigger building. You only need to go as high as you need to go to support the returns you want on your investment. Anything more is risk, especially in this environment, where the regional banks who fund most of these developments are under an intense amount of pressure and scrutiny.

But yes, in a fairy tale world everything should be a super tall.

Lol, the same reason that a new proposal next to a Major Subway stop is only 10 stories high is the same reason why people are protesting an Arena on Market St,

Philly has an issue with big ambitions.

[summersm343]

April CDR Submissions

14515 McNulty Street
-Located in the Byberry section of Northeast Philly
-146,272 square foot warehouse/distribution center
PDF:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20230321...4-2023-CDR.pdf

1314 Spring Garden Street
-Located in Callowhill
-7 floors in total
-149 residential units with ground floor commercial/retail
PDF:
https://www.phila.gov/media/20230321...4-2023-CDR.pdf