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  #1021  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2007, 9:17 PM
neilson neilson is offline
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Originally Posted by BKOTH97 View Post
Madison is ALOT different now than it was in 1985. Unless Madison is somehow able to land this 500M development from Breland, it is going to collapse under its own residential weight. It cannot sustain the services needed for 40,000 residents on the property tax base currently in place.

My Humble Opinion
residential? In comparison to other Alabama suburbs like Hoover, Trussville, Prattville, Daphne, Oxford, and the like, Madison has a lot of industry; particularly on the southside. Intergraph for starters(yes, it's in Madison not Huntsville). And all the other businesses north of Highway 20 and east of County Line Road.

Anything south of Intergraph is in Huntsville.
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  #1022  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2007, 9:35 PM
BKOTH97 BKOTH97 is offline
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Not all of Intergraph is in Madison and I would hardly call the existing HWY 20 area a booming retail tax base. One publix a Wal-Mart and an old time pottery just aren't going to get the job done. Two of the shopping centers on Hwy 20 are darn near death and one had completely died until OTP showed up.

Now, the Hwy 72 area has a number of developments, Home Depot, Kohls,etc, but they are all on the North side of the Road...in Huntsville. The new Wal-Mart / Theater / Shopping Center that is planned for the area between Balch and Kirby Lane is all in Huntsville too.

Look at what is on the south side of 72. It doesn't even come close to comparing. Madison does have Lowes, Southern Family Markets, Star Market, and Books-a-Million in the little sliver of land North of 72 that is in Madison, but Huntsville has everything else.

Huntsville has Madison hemmed in and will squeeze until it dies.

Last edited by BKOTH97; Apr 13, 2007 at 9:44 PM.
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  #1023  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2007, 9:46 PM
neilson neilson is offline
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Originally Posted by BKOTH97 View Post
Not all of Intergraph is in Madison and I would hardly call the existing HWY 20 area a booming retail tax base. One publix a Wal-Mart and an old time pottery just aren't going to get the job done. Two of the shopping centers on Hwy 20 are darn near death and one had completely died until OTP showed up.

Now, the Hwy 72 area has a number of developments, Home Depot, Kohls,etc, but they are all on the North side of the Road...in Huntsville. The new Wal-Mart / Theater / Shopping Center that is planned for the area between Balch and Kirby Lane is all in Huntsville too.

Look at what is on the south side of 72. It doesn't even come close to comparing. Madison does have Lowes, Southern Family Markets, Star Market, and Books-a-Million in the little sliver of land North of 72 that is in Madison, but Huntsville has everything else.

Huntsville has Madison hemmed in and will squeeze until it dies.
Once again, by your logic we should see Homewood, Trussville, Prattville, Daphne, Oxford, and the like die off in the near future too unless they become part of Birmingham, Montgomery, or Mobile.

Sorry but that hasn't happened and it won't happen.
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  #1024  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2007, 9:49 PM
neilson neilson is offline
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Originally Posted by BKOTH97 View Post
Not all of Intergraph is in Madison and I would hardly call the existing HWY 20 area a booming retail tax base. One publix a Wal-Mart and an old time pottery just aren't going to get the job done. Two of the shopping centers on Hwy 20 are darn near death and one had completely died until OTP showed up.

Now, the Hwy 72 area has a number of developments, Home Depot, Kohls,etc, but they are all on the North side of the Road...in Huntsville. The new Wal-Mart / Theater / Shopping Center that is planned for the area between Balch and Kirby Lane is all in Huntsville too.

Look at what is on the south side of 72. It doesn't even come close to comparing. Madison does have Lowes, Southern Family Markets, Star Market, and Books-a-Million in the little sliver of land North of 72 that is in Madison, but Huntsville has everything else.

Huntsville has Madison hemmed in and will squeeze until it dies.
And I blame Madison in the late 90s for being asleep at the wheel.

You and I both know that the only reason Huntsville annexed the land up there in the way they did was to keep a buffer between Madison and Monrovia/Harvest.

Huntsville didn't want to give Madison the possibility of annexing Monrovia/Harvest so what'd they do? create an annex-fence of Huntsville to keep us(Madison) from doing so.

That's low.
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  #1025  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2007, 10:08 PM
BKOTH97 BKOTH97 is offline
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neilson,

I completely agree with you. Like I said, Huntsville has Madison hemmed in and will Squeeze. They basically have Madison surrounded all the way into Limestone county now as well. Heck, Huntsville stretches all the way to the 65 / 565 interchange now.

It is low, very low, but Madison has to deal with it.
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  #1026  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2007, 11:31 PM
neilson neilson is offline
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Originally Posted by BKOTH97 View Post
neilson,

I completely agree with you. Like I said, Huntsville has Madison hemmed in and will Squeeze. They basically have Madison surrounded all the way into Limestone county now as well. Heck, Huntsville stretches all the way to the 65 / 565 interchange now.

It is low, very low, but Madison has to deal with it.
But yet you refuse to refute my logic so I'm gonna ask it 1 more time.

By your logic we should see Homewood, Trussville, Prattville, Daphne, Oxford, and the like die off in the near future too unless they become part of Birmingham, Montgomery, or Mobile.

Sorry but that hasn't happened and it won't happen. Case in point: Mountain Brook. It's a city surrounded and it's not dying off anytime soon. Ditto Homewood. Ditto Vestavia Hills. Ditto Daphne and Fairhope. I can cite several cases.

What say you?
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  #1027  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 1:48 AM
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Originally Posted by neilson View Post
And I blame Madison in the late 90s for being asleep at the wheel.

You and I both know that the only reason Huntsville annexed the land up there in the way they did was to keep a buffer between Madison and Monrovia/Harvest.

Huntsville didn't want to give Madison the possibility of annexing Monrovia/Harvest so what'd they do? create an annex-fence of Huntsville to keep us(Madison) from doing so.

That's low.
from the HSV side it was brilliant, there is really no need or advantage to
have Madison become part of HSV. HSV doesn't want to inherit Madison's problems or needs. Will Madison die, of course not, but as a city it will struggle to meet it's needs, unless an infusion of projects/developments
happen and I think it will. Madison's location is it's biggest advantage.
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  #1028  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by HSVTiger View Post
from the HSV side it was brilliant, there is really no need or advantage to
have Madison become part of HSV. HSV doesn't want to inherit Madison's problems or needs. Will Madison die, of course not, but as a city it will struggle to meet it's needs, unless an infusion of projects/developments
happen and I think it will. Madison's location is it's biggest advantage.
Madison's problem is that it's not much of an independent city. If it were not for the influence of Huntsville and even Decatur, I don't think that Madison could have survived. It won't die, of course not, and I completely agree that they're going to struggle to handle all that they're experiencing. Unfortunately, there are not enough companies located in Madison to give adequate support to the financial needs of the whole city.

While at the moment are don't have to deal with as many educational, roadway, and other infrastructural problems, as Huntsville and Decatur do, they will soon. Roads don't last forever, Decatur High is proof that school buildings don't last forever, and cables and lines always need to be replaced. It's no wonder we always hear that annoying,"Shop Madison first." commericial on the radio all the time.

I'm thankful that I live in Decatur, because the city supports the school system sooo much more than most other systems in the state. We don't have to worry as much about not having textbooks and stuff like that, so, I'm good. But, Madison's gonna face those types of problems sooner or later. It may not be so bad now, but, I think they're gonna stuggle to cope with a growing student population, and the financial situation might get strained. They really need to focus on getting more business going on in their town, it's no wonder they're fighting to annex and keep their current land.
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  #1029  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2007, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by neilson View Post
But yet you refuse to refute my logic so I'm gonna ask it 1 more time.

By your logic we should see Homewood, Trussville, Prattville, Daphne, Oxford, and the like die off in the near future too unless they become part of Birmingham, Montgomery, or Mobile.

Sorry but that hasn't happened and it won't happen. Case in point: Mountain Brook. It's a city surrounded and it's not dying off anytime soon. Ditto Homewood. Ditto Vestavia Hills. Ditto Daphne and Fairhope. I can cite several cases.

What say you?
If you honestly believe that Madison compares to the likes of any of the other suburbs you mentioned (save Daphne and Fairhope, I don't know terribly much about the Mobile/Baldwin County area), you're mistaken.

Hoover, which was mentioned earlier, has what has become THE retail focal point of the entire Birmingham region: Riverchase Galleria and its surrounding stores and office development. For Madison to be an equivalent to Hoover for its own respective size category, Madison would need the University Drive corridor from Old Monrovia to Providence Main, and it does not. That's all Huntsville. Ditto for Homewood, which has Brookwood Village and the retail areas west of I-65 on Lakeshore Drive.

Mountain Brook? That's the wealthiest community in the entire state, where practically every household is worth millions. Madison, in comparison, is mainly a middle to upper-middle class suburb of Huntsville. The wealthiest neighborhoods in the Huntsville metro area (that could be compared to Mountain Brook) are not in Madison... they are near or along the Mountains that form the eastern border of Huntsville's urban area: The Ledges, Wakefield, Twickenham, Hampton Cove, etc. Ditto for Vestavia Hills, which is really just an extension of Mountain Brook.

Trussville is still too small and underdeveloped to make a comment on.

The only other city in the state that can be compared to Madison in terms of its economic and residential role to its bigger neighbor is Prattville.
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  #1030  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 12:04 AM
neilson neilson is offline
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Originally Posted by Rail Claimore View Post
If you honestly believe that Madison compares to the likes of any of the other suburbs you mentioned (save Daphne and Fairhope, I don't know terribly much about the Mobile/Baldwin County area), you're mistaken.

Hoover, which was mentioned earlier, has what has become THE retail focal point of the entire Birmingham region: Riverchase Galleria and its surrounding stores and office development. For Madison to be an equivalent to Hoover for its own respective size category, Madison would need the University Drive corridor from Old Monrovia to Providence Main, and it does not. That's all Huntsville. Ditto for Homewood, which has Brookwood Village and the retail areas west of I-65 on Lakeshore Drive.

Mountain Brook? That's the wealthiest community in the entire state, where practically every household is worth millions. Madison, in comparison, is mainly a middle to upper-middle class suburb of Huntsville. The wealthiest neighborhoods in the Huntsville metro area (that could be compared to Mountain Brook) are not in Madison... they are near or along the Mountains that form the eastern border of Huntsville's urban area: The Ledges, Wakefield, Twickenham, Hampton Cove, etc. Ditto for Vestavia Hills, which is really just an extension of Mountain Brook.

Trussville is still too small and underdeveloped to make a comment on.

The only other city in the state that can be compared to Madison in terms of its economic and residential role to its bigger neighbor is Prattville.
And I would argue that Madison will succeed just as well as Prattville, Wetumpka, Millbrook, Trussville, Gardendale, Daphne, Fairhope, Spanish Fort, Oxford, Rainbow City, Northport, and Saraland.
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  #1031  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Rail Claimore View Post
If you honestly believe that Madison compares to the likes of any of the other suburbs you mentioned (save Daphne and Fairhope, I don't know terribly much about the Mobile/Baldwin County area), you're mistaken.

Hoover, which was mentioned earlier, has what has become THE retail focal point of the entire Birmingham region: Riverchase Galleria and its surrounding stores and office development. For Madison to be an equivalent to Hoover for its own respective size category, Madison would need the University Drive corridor from Old Monrovia to Providence Main, and it does not. That's all Huntsville. Ditto for Homewood, which has Brookwood Village and the retail areas west of I-65 on Lakeshore Drive.

Mountain Brook? That's the wealthiest community in the entire state, where practically every household is worth millions. Madison, in comparison, is mainly a middle to upper-middle class suburb of Huntsville. The wealthiest neighborhoods in the Huntsville metro area (that could be compared to Mountain Brook) are not in Madison... they are near or along the Mountains that form the eastern border of Huntsville's urban area: The Ledges, Wakefield, Twickenham, Hampton Cove, etc. Ditto for Vestavia Hills, which is really just an extension of Mountain Brook.

Trussville is still too small and underdeveloped to make a comment on.

The only other city in the state that can be compared to Madison in terms of its economic and residential role to its bigger neighbor is Prattville.
and even that is a stretch, Prattville is it's own city in it's own county, not sharing borders as Madison does. Prattville has a fast growing retail environment something Madison doesn't at least not yet. The Shoppes at Riverbend could change that. It's a bit odd to hear Madison cry about not having a hospital yet Hoover a city of nearly 65,000 doesn't have one either
if I am not mistaken.
More on Madison's annexation, the qestion is why did they wait till HSV
showed interest? Madison should be proactive instead of being asleep at the wheel.
"Probate Judge Mike Davis and Limestone County Commission Chairman David Seibert said the land will be developed one day, raising several questions, including who will provide emergency services, such as fire and law enforcement, and where schoolchildren will be zoned.

The annexed land also complicates Limestone's ability to manage elections, Davis said, because the many district lines for various offices are complicated enough.

"That we simply have elections under such chaotic conditions, I've always said it's a miracle," Davis said. "Thank God for computers is all I can say."

Seibert said it worries him that Madison could reap part of the tax base from the annexed land in Limestone County when the commission is paying for some local services.

The property, less than two miles from County Line Road, is in the district of Madison City Councilman Steve Haraway. He said one of the property owners told him Huntsville wanted to annex his and his family's property and use it for a new north-south sewer line.

"He told me they would rather be in Madison than in Huntsville, especially since he has one of our city wells on his property," said Haraway, who also serves on the city's Water and Wastewater Board.

The requests for the Limestone property came during the controversy over developer Louis Breland's effort to deannex 263 acres from Madison. A large retail development is planned for the site off Zierdt Road at Interstate 565.

"We had the deannexation issue going on and then we find out Huntsville is trying to annex property where two of our city wells are located," Haraway said. "We don't want to be known as the council that completely lost the city."

He said the paperwork was completed just before the council's March 26 meeting, so instead of waiting two more weeks for a second reading as council rules require, the rules were suspended and the annexations were added to the agenda and approved.

"This was about us protecting our water supply," Haraway said.

Ricky Pounders, general manager of the Water and Wastewater Board, said the city has 20-year contracts on the wells, which are protected by Madison laws that protect the area. If that property went into another city, Madison's laws wouldn't apply.

Huntsville has already annexed property along Segers Road from Old Highway 20 to north of the railroad tracks, just south of the property annexed by Madison. "
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  #1032  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 2:03 AM
Exodus Exodus is offline
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Construction to begin shortly on the Governors Medical Tower, corner of Governors Dr and Gallatin,
downtown. It will connect to Huntsville Hospital with an overhead walkway.

I really like this building and the walkway, and it's about time that Governers is being widened. It seems as though Huntsville is turning back inwards and cleaning up and redeveloping it's innercity
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  #1033  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 2:26 AM
neilson neilson is offline
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I really like this building and the walkway, and it's about time that Governers is being widened. It seems as though Huntsville is turning back inwards and cleaning up and redeveloping it's innercity
Very true, and you have to admit that North and South Huntsville are holding their own very well.

I'd just like to see a rebound of sorts at the old Hills Shopping Center off University at Sparkman(for the 2nd/3rd time). UAH students gotta have options right off campus too.

Also, I want to see the rather disturbing exodus at Madison Square come to a halt and actually reverse its trend.
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  #1034  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 2:36 AM
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And I would argue that Madison will succeed just as well as Prattville, Wetumpka, Millbrook, Trussville, Gardendale, Daphne, Fairhope, Spanish Fort, Oxford, Rainbow City, Northport, and Saraland.
And I think it will succeed too... that I did not deny. I just don't think you can compare Madison to any, or even most, of the cities you mentioned.
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  #1035  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 2:42 AM
neilson neilson is offline
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And I think it will succeed too... that I did not deny. I just don't think you can compare Madison to any, or even most, of the cities you mentioned.
But they're all suburbs just like Madison and they're not extremely rich(not in my most recent list).
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  #1036  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 3:33 AM
BKOTH97 BKOTH97 is offline
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Originally Posted by neilson View Post
But they're all suburbs just like Madison and they're not extremely rich(not in my most recent list).
Can you be a suburb of Gadsden? I mean, come on, Rainbow City? Maybe you should have thrown Attalla in there too.

Seriously, you can't compare Spanish Fort to Madison. Madison has about 7x the population and 7x the population puts a heck of a lot more strain on the services and infrastructure.

I am trying to find a breakdown of tax revenue in Madison, but i have not found it yet. I believe that it is considerably weighted toward property taxes when compared to some of the other more successful suburbs like Hoover that you mentioned before. I will continue to search for the budget numbers as i have time.

Madison is the 11th or 12th largest city in the state. It will most likely crack the top 10 by passing Gadsden within the next year or two. That is a pretty large city to have such a small retail / corporate tax base. I sincerely hope, for Madison's sake, that the Riverbend development is built and that it stays in the Madison city limits.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I just don't see how anyone can believe that everything is hunky dory around Madison. There are some real problems that aren't going to get fixed by doing things the same way they have been done since the mid 80s.
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  #1037  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 3:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BKOTH97 View Post
Can you be a suburb of Gadsden? I mean, come on, Rainbow City? Maybe you should have thrown Attalla in there too.

Seriously, you can't compare Spanish Fort to Madison. Madison has about 7x the population and 7x the population puts a heck of a lot more strain on the services and infrastructure.

I am trying to find a breakdown of tax revenue in Madison, but i have not found it yet. I believe that it is considerably weighted toward property taxes when compared to some of the other more successful suburbs like Hoover that you mentioned before. I will continue to search for the budget numbers as i have time.

Madison is the 11th or 12th largest city in the state. It will most likely crack the top 10 by passing Gadsden within the next year or two. That is a pretty large city to have such a small retail / corporate tax base. I sincerely hope, for Madison's sake, that the Riverbend development is built and that it stays in the Madison city limits.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I just don't see how anyone can believe that everything is hunky dory around Madison. There are some real problems that aren't going to get fixed by doing things the same way they have been done since the mid 80s.
Just like I said in my last post, Madison can't cope with all the strain that's gonna be put on them in the future. I'm sure that Madison will pass Gadsden in population. But, it's tax revenues won't ever be able to compare. Gadsden's a regional center for the Sand Mountain Region and Anniston.
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  #1038  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 5:24 PM
Exodus Exodus is offline
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I wouldn't call Madison a burb, It's more of a sister city.
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  #1039  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 6:56 PM
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some nice photos taken from a crane at Bridge Street can be seen at this link
HSV Times/ Bob Gathany photos

Don't look down! 240' feet up

http://www.al.com/huntsvilletimes/ph....ata?g_id=3370







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  #1040  
Old Posted Apr 15, 2007, 7:56 PM
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Also, I want to see the rather disturbing exodus at Madison Square come to a halt and actually reverse its trend.
I hope Madison Square Mall doesn't go the way of some of the malls here in Birmingham. Are tenants rapidly moving out? If so, are they being replaced? I've said it before - while the Bridge Street project is great, it seems dangerously close to Madison Square Mall (just a short drive down Research Park Blvd) in terms of drawing away customers/tenants.
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