Why city dwellers are seeking out second homes in the suburbs

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by 10023

One is transactional and one carries with it all of the attendant social obligations of friends or family.

I expect that I would often prefer having the nanny stay late rather than a relative coming over, for the same reason that it is much easier to go to a restaurant, pay the check and leave, rather than go to a relative’s house (bringing some kind of small gift, eating what you’re given, making conversation for probably several hours, etc).

Neither my mother nor mother-in-law are paid staff that could be called up at short notice to perform babysitting services for nothing but cash in return, but as a parent that is exactly what I would often want.

there are absolutely times (such as short notice when my parents already have plans) that a baby-sitter becomes necessary, but we have an arrangement with my parents where they come over to our place to watch our kids for a weekly date night for me and my wife. there is no obligation for gifts or to eat any food or talk for hours or whatever. they love their grandkids and always jump at the opportunity to watch them if they are free.

my parents pick the kids up from daycare, bring them back to our place, feed them, play with them, put them to bed, and then watch a movie in our living room while my wife and i get some much needed time for each other.

they get to spend time with their grandkids (who they dearly, dearly love), our kids get to bond with their grandparents, and we get a night off. everybody wins!

and then there is the true magic of having nearby grandparents: when they take the kids over to their place for a whole fucking weekend!!!


again, i feel sorry for you that you find spending time with your relatives so onerous and unpleasant.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

It is? I'm surprised to hear that. That's pretty young to be feeling "lonely with no kids"

I'm 31 and while I wouldn't say it's lonley, there has definitely been a major drop in social activities. My girlfriend and I are either having early dinners at friends' homes semi-babysitting with the parents while we eat or hanging out with wild single friends who are single (in part) because they are having trouble leaving their 20s behind. I don't know many other childless couples our age now that I think about it.

[the urban politician]

For me it was an easy thing to make friends in my early to mid-20s, and then it stopped.

So I agree with you guys there. Life in that demographic is all about going out and meeting people, going to bars and clubs, etc. Then you suddenly realize that you're getting a bit old for that stuff, I guess.

But I still wouldn't say that I felt lonely after that. I've always sort of been able to remain entertained without company anyhow (TV, books, internet, developing my real estate business, etc) so I was never bothered, but I guess that's just me..

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Handro

I'm 31 and while I wouldn't say it's lonley, there has definitely been a major drop in social activities. My girlfriend and I are either having early dinners at friends' homes semi-babysitting with the parents while we eat or hanging out with wild single friends who are single (in part) because they are having trouble leaving their 20s behind. I don't know many other childless couples our age now that I think about it.

I agree with everything that's been posted about this, as it was definitely our experience. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't social opportunities for people/couples who are childless. A few of the couples we were friends with ended up remaining childless and they're mostly hanging out with other childless people they eventually connected with. Younger (30s and 40s) childless couples also in my experience tend to spend more time with people quite a bit older (family members or friends) who either never had kids or whose kids have flown off on their own.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

It is? I'm surprised to hear that. That's pretty young to be feeling "lonely with no kids"

I mean it in the sense that we've reached one of those times in life with a "social lull". We are both extremely busy with our careers right now and, being the DINKs of the family or friends group, we are always traveling to visit people who have kids or are older. That takes up a lot of time and leaves us with few days a week to socialize. Add in existing friends who we are very close with and you don't have much time for finding and making new friends.

And yeah, I've probably never had a larger business network or more social interactions with people through my career, but you can only become so friendly with a GC or architect or tenant or even just a business connection.

I'm sure it will flip overnight once we have kids and need to start allocating tons of time to their activities and schooling at which point there will be tons of other parents looking to pass the time while watching JR swing hopelessly at the softball.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

I mean it in the sense that we've reached one of those times in life with a "social lull". We are both extremely busy with our careers right now and, being the DINKs of the family or friends group, we are always traveling to visit people who have kids or are older. That takes up a lot of time and leaves us with few days a week to socialize. Add in existing friends who we are very close with and you don't have much time for finding and making new friends.

And yeah, I've probably never had a larger business network or more social interactions with people through my career, but you can only become so friendly with a GC or architect or tenant or even just a business connection.

I'm sure it will flip overnight once we have kids and need to start allocating tons of time to their activities and schooling at which point there will be tons of other parents looking to pass the time while watching JR swing hopelessly at the softball.

I was going to respond to your earlier post by saying that typically one's social life *explodes* when you have kids. When you imagine becoming a parent you envision your social life grinding to a halt but it's the exact opposite - though it does undergo a major transformation, but it gets very busy unless you push back and isolate yourself (which some people do). But for most it's to the point where sometimes it's challenging to juggle all the commitments: professional, family, social.

My wife and I met more people in our neighbourhood in the first six months after we had our first child than in the previous six years we lived there.

[Obadno]

Priorities change as you get older, thats why Cities trend younger.


At some point your "average" person gets married and has kids and instead of wanting to live in a cool neighborhood with lots to do they need SPACE for the family affordability.

The "average" person's middle years from say 30-50 are more or less dominated by kids and that pushes people towards suburban living (or at least single family homes outside city centers) That then shifts again once the kids are up and gone and people move into the new phase of life for our modern era "retirement"

I dont suspect you'll see cities die again but I think you will see millennials move out of the cities, being replaced by Gen Z's and retiring boomers.

Ideally I think you would have a conveyor belt Kids raised in the "burbs" who move into the cities as young adults, who then in their middle ages are back out in the burbs to raise new kids and then retiring back to the city.

Obviously some people will buck this trend as plenty of old people want to be out in a quiet location but many also like to go back to urban living.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was going to respond to your earlier post by saying that typically one's social life *explodes* when you have kids.

^ That didn't happen to us, really.

We do have some people with which our kids play with, and hence we occasionally meet up with their parents. But it's really nothing more than that.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Obviously some people will buck this trend as plenty of old people want to be out in a quiet location but many also like to go back to urban living.

Knowing my personality, when I'm old I will probably be very cranky and won't want to be around a lot of other people other than family.

Now, I love cities to no end. But traffic, congestion, dealing with random inconsiderate people on the street, waiting in lines, etc just grates on me and it seems to get worse as I age.

By the time I'm 80 I'm pretty sure I'm going to be fed up with it all, and will just want to sit near a window and shake my fist at the clouds, perhaps making occasional trips into the city center to get my "big city oooh and ahhh" fix out of the way.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

If you view spending time with your family as "a problem", then that kinda says it all right there.

I think the most unanticipated realization I've had as an almost middle-aged adult is how many people there are that need to talk to a professional. I'm not a psychiatrist... but treating people as transactional, especially your own family, sounds very sociopathic.

[edale]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Late twenties and early thirties is a bit lonely with no kids.

What the hell? I am 30, and literally none of my friends my age have children. Only 1 is married.I know a couple people that I grew up with who got married right after school and have a kid or two and already live out in the burbs, but that seems like a waste of your youth and fun years to me, and they are definitely outliers among people I know.

I know people tend to get married and have kids earlier in the midwest and especially the south, but even in my hometown (Cincinnati), being single in your late 20s or early 30s isn't seen as strange. In Los Angeles, it would definitely be strange to be married with kids at that age!

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the most unanticipated realization I've had as an almost middle-aged adult is how many people there are that need to talk to a professional. I'm not a psychiatrist... but treating people as transactional, especially your own family, sounds very sociopathic.

I dont like to give terrible people the excuse of having a "disorder"

People are just selfish assholes, sometimes maybe they have a mental issue, but most of the time they just suck.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ That didn't happen to us, really.

We do have some people with which our kids play with, and hence we occasionally meet up with their parents. But it's really nothing more than that.

Perhaps "explodes" was too strong a term, though it wasn't that far off for us and most people we know. Definitely a fairly significant upsurge.

Incidentally I am going out this evening for my weekly get-together/activity with a group of guys that I know through our kids' activities that we had in common at one point.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that around about the 30s it's a big challenge to maintain kids/no-kids couple friendships. Not impossible as there are exceptions but I they're fairly rare. My wife and I have not been very successful and we're not even close to being "kid-obsessed" in our conversations with people who are childless.

What I've seen most of the time is that people who have kids orient their social life towards people who also have them (either old friends or new ones) and as I said people who don't generally reorient themselves as well.

In the latter case it's a bit more challenging as the pool of potential friends (especially in your age group) who are childless narrows dramatically.

I mean, if you're 28 right now it's highly likely that most of the people you hang out with who are your age will end up being in a parental relationship with at least one child within the next 15 years. (This includes a decent chunk of those who currently swear they'll never have kids, BTW.)

[edale]

Originally Posted by Handro

I'm 31 and while I wouldn't say it's lonley, there has definitely been a major drop in social activities. My girlfriend and I are either having early dinners at friends' homes semi-babysitting with the parents while we eat or hanging out with wild single friends who are single (in part) because they are having trouble leaving their 20s behind. I don't know many other childless couples our age now that I think about it.

After seeing posts like this, I am definitely glad to live in Los Angeles lol. Seeing these posts is like a portal into a different world. I guess this is a city of late bloomers, haha.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by edale

What the hell? I am 30, and literally none of my friends my age have children. Only 1 is married.I know a couple people that I grew up with who got married right after school and have a kid or two and already live out in the burbs, but that seems like a waste of your youth and fun years to me, and they are definitely outliers among people I know.

I know people tend to get married and have kids earlier in the midwest and especially the south, but even in my hometown (Cincinnati), being single in your late 20s or early 30s isn't seen as strange. In Los Angeles, it would definitely be strange to be married with kids at that age!

He did say "a bit lonely", not that his social milieu was collapsing around him.

I agree with him that if you keep your eyes open, you'll see that things are slowing down in your age group around that age.

I remember increasingly noticing the people who look like they're 45-50 pretending they're 20-25, hanging out in our favourite bars and restaurants. As you get closer in age to them they stand out more to you. At least they did to me.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

sounds very sociopathic.

i've suspected as much about sofaboy for quite some time.

at least as far as one can tell from postings on an anonymous internet message board.

it could all just be schtick. but what a decades-long commitment to it if it is!

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the most unanticipated realization I've had as an almost middle-aged adult is how many people there are that need to talk to a professional. I'm not a psychiatrist... but treating people as transactional, especially your own family, sounds very sociopathic.

It's capitalism perfected, plain and simple. Kind of like the Mercers who allegedly only see human beings for how much economic value they contribute.

I can't wrap my head around it, but I work in social services/law enforcement (probation) where human behaviors tend to be a little bit more complicated/nuanced beyond a person's economic worth.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by edale

What the hell? I am 30, and literally none of my friends my age have children. Only 1 is married.I know a couple people that I grew up with who got married right after school and have a kid or two and already live out in the burbs, but that seems like a waste of your youth and fun years to me, and they are definitely outliers among people I know.

I know people tend to get married and have kids earlier in the midwest and especially the south, but even in my hometown (Cincinnati), being single in your late 20s or early 30s isn't seen as strange. In Los Angeles, it would definitely be strange to be married with kids at that age!

That's how it was with my hometown in Upstate NY. People settle down much younger there. Had I stayed up there, I would have been divorced and at least a grandparent by this point..I just turned 46. But I moved to Houston in my mid twenties where people stay single much longer and I married in my early 40's.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by edale

After seeing posts like this, I am definitely glad to live in Los Angeles lol. Seeing these posts is like a portal into a different world. I guess this is a city of late bloomers, haha.

Obviously in very large cities like LA and NYC there are numerous social circles for all walks of life.

Though unless your current milieu is the Kid Haters' Club and has self-filtered, there will be a reorientation within it that will gradually take place between now and the end of your 30s as many of the people you know and currently frequent eventually become parents.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by edale

After seeing posts like this, I am definitely glad to live in Los Angeles lol. Seeing these posts is like a portal into a different world. I guess this is a city of late bloomers, haha.

I don't think it's a Chicago vs. Los Angeles thing, just my personal social circle. I can only speak for what I personally know. Seems like my friends split into the perpetually single "late bloomer" group and the get have kids by 30 group. I can only think of four childless couples we can regularly socialize with off the top of my head--five if you include the one who's fiance doesn't get along with my gf ha

EDIT: Since this is a nerd-oriented site, here are some stats:

LA and Miami are near the bottom of Marriage Rate among Millennials (not really surprising) at ~25%
https://havenlife.com/blog/millennia...rates-by-city/

Chicago is middle of the pack between Washington DC and San Francisco at around 30%

Seems like more career focused cities (tech, finance, politics) vs more fun cities (the beach, entertainment)

The top of the list is of course places like SLC and OKC.

Interstingly, the rate of married millenials with kids is nearly identical between Chicago and LA.