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  #2321  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 1:24 AM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
Whatever you think bud...
It's really not about what I think. Read a dictionary. Simple as that.

And I can guarantee you this: to anyone living in Dartmouth in the 60s and 70s, (and I know plenty), the notion that Mic Mac Mall was built in a "suburb" would have been laughable, just ludicrous.
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  #2322  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
It's really not about what I think. Read a dictionary. Simple as that.

And I can guarantee you this: to anyone living in Dartmouth in the 60s and 70s, (and I know plenty), the notion that Mic Mac Mall was built in a "suburb" would have been laughable, just ludicrous.
Oh, I have, but maybe you should! It is inner suburban and was most definitely suburban in the 60 and 70's!
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  #2323  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 10:34 AM
GTG_78 GTG_78 is offline
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
Oh, I have, but maybe you should! It is inner suburban and was most definitely suburban in the 60 and 70's!
The Hardman Group certainly thought that Mic Mac was a suburban mall when they built it. They did not do feasibility and marketing studies then as they do now, but they consistently referred to it as a suburban mall.

The timing is also important: the Mall was built as the first section of the 111 was being completed. Mic Mac was envisioned as a mall for commuters pouring in from across the region as much as it was a mall for the Halifax-Dartmouth core.
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  #2324  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 12:12 PM
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MMM is sort of an interesting case. It actually would have marked a transitional area between urban Dartmouth and the suburbs in the late 1960s when planning began. On one side you had the Crichton Park area of Dartmouth and the rowing clubs surrounding Lake Banook. The clubs were certainly urban and while one could argue that the development of Crichton Park in the '50s and '60 was suburban, I would suggest it was more of a simple urban expansion in response to the growth of Dartmouth after the Macdonald bridge opened in the mid-'50s.

However, right there on the other side of the existing highway out of Dartmouth towards Westphal that was adjacent to the MMM site was most definitely suburbia, as was the development along the Circ to the west of MMM heading towards Woodside. So the site was right along the border, so to speak, if such a thing existed, which it did not.
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  #2325  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 12:25 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
It is inner suburban and was most definitely suburban in the 60 and 70's!
Sorry, I don't know of a kinder way to put it: that's just utter nonsense. It was built immediately adjacent to long-established residential city neighborhoods which were absolutely urban, about five minutes from the downtown core. There absolutely was nothing "suburban" about that area, either in location or character.

Anyone who knew that part of Dartmouth in the 60s and 70s would gladly confirm that, I'm sure. I bet OldDartmouthMark is guffawing at the silliness of this discussion.
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  #2326  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 12:47 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
On one side you had the Crichton Park area of Dartmouth and the rowing clubs surrounding Lake Banook. The clubs were certainly urban and...I would suggest it was more of a simple urban expansion in response to the growth of Dartmouth after the Macdonald bridge opened in the mid-'50s.
That's the most accurate analysis I've seen here yet. I would add that there was a very well-established neighborhood along Crichton Avenue that reached nearly to the edge of the property where the mall was built, and which had existed for many decades before the Crichton Park "proper" subdivision was developed behind it on the hill to the north. It long pre-dated both Crichton Park and the Macdonald Bridge.

As well, to the south of the mall location, across Micmac Blvd and between it and Lake Banook, the townhouses and virtually all of the single-family dwellings of Charlie MacCulloch's Mic Mac Village development (Garden Court Terrace, Brookdale Crescent), not to mention the Dartmouth YMCA and the Dartmouth Academy, had existed for years before the mall was built.

The notion of the area as "suburban" at that time just has nothing to do with reality.

Last edited by Saul Goode; Oct 19, 2021 at 1:01 PM.
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  #2327  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 12:52 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by GTG_78 View Post
The timing is also important: the Mall was built as the first section of the 111 was being completed. Mic Mac was envisioned as a mall for commuters pouring in from across the region as much as it was a mall for the Halifax-Dartmouth core.
Good grief. The 111 had been open for more than a decade when MMM opened. For that matter, the 118 was already three years old at that point.
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  #2328  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 1:14 PM
gohaligo gohaligo is offline
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I drove by HSC this week and there seems to be some construction activity going on on the lower level and main floor exterior doors of the old Sears store. Didn't check the Mall 3nd floor entrance for signs construction.
It's a little late for Toys R Us this season especially with the squeeze on toy supply.
Might be the long rumoured Home Sense/Marshals.
I think The Bay [I]would want to be back in Halifax rather than in a remote area of a mall that they have no ownership in[/I. I seem to recall that HBC had a position in Cambridge Properties before it became Ivanhoe Cambridge. HBC's value now is in their real estate holdings. On the HSC side I think they are over taking risks on Department Stores ala Eaton's and Sears.
I did have a lookie inside and it looks pretty gutted. I don't think that HSC would be doing anything there if they didn't have a tenant or tenants.
It seems to have driven the retail conversation into the ditch with my "downtown" comment. I have modified my post above to reflect.

My use of "downtown" comes from Haligonians (HRM) who live off peninsula and who continuously refer to the peninsula as "downtown" when they have to go there. I have heard this reference on several occasions and I do find it amusing.
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  #2329  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 1:45 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by gohaligo View Post
It seems to have driven the retail conversation into the ditch with my "downtown" comment. I have modified my post above to reflect.
Actually, "downtown" wasn't the trigger - it was "suburban".

But don't sweat it. No harm, no foul. Nothing wrong with a little lively debate.

Back to retail: do you really think HBC "would want to be back in Halifax"? If so, why did they abandon the perfectly good store they had?
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  #2330  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 3:11 PM
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Keith P. Keith P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
Back to retail: do you really think HBC "would want to be back in Halifax"? If so, why did they abandon the perfectly good store they had?

That store was a bizarre design from the start and was always star-crossed. If you remember, it began as a Simpson's, to let them move out of their original 1920s-vintage store that Sears had taken over. That in itself was a real shame as the old Simpson's there was a gem of a store.

But the new one was a big disappointment from day one and did not improve when it flipped over to The Bay. Every department was shrunken from what it once was. It was located at the end of a very bad mall that had virtually no customer draw within it other then what became Sears at the opposite end. There was no real visibility to the fact that it was a department store from Chebucto Rd. There was just a tiny amount of surface parking and instead it depended upon a dark, multilevel parking garage which Halifax shoppers traditionally hate to use, with rickety, cold and dangerous-feeling elevators to take you up to the store floors. Then once it was built, the store never changed from what it was like on day one, with virtually no improvements or new interior finishes. It was just bad all around.
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  #2331  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 3:40 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
That store was a bizarre design from the start and was always star-crossed. If you remember, it began as a Simpson's, to let them move out of their original 1920s-vintage store that Sears had taken over. That in itself was a real shame as the old Simpson's there was a gem of a store.

But the new one was a big disappointment from day one and did not improve when it flipped over to The Bay. Every department was shrunken from what it once was. It was located at the end of a very bad mall that had virtually no customer draw within it other then what became Sears at the opposite end. There was no real visibility to the fact that it was a department store from Chebucto Rd. There was just a tiny amount of surface parking and instead it depended upon a dark, multilevel parking garage which Halifax shoppers traditionally hate to use, with rickety, cold and dangerous-feeling elevators to take you up to the store floors. Then once it was built, the store never changed from what it was like on day one, with virtually no improvements or new interior finishes. It was just bad all around.
All good points, and I remember the store well. I guess instead of "perfectly good", I should have said "extant and functioning", which is what I was really getting at. In other words, if the only problem was the physical facility, why did HSC not build or rent anew? Why abandon Halifax entirely? Seems likely there was more to it than the obsolescence of the space.
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  #2332  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
Sorry, I don't know of a kinder way to put it: that's just utter nonsense. It was built immediately adjacent to long-established residential city neighborhoods which were absolutely urban, about five minutes from the downtown core. There absolutely was nothing "suburban" about that area, either in location or character.

Anyone who knew that part of Dartmouth in the 60s and 70s would gladly confirm that, I'm sure. I bet OldDartmouthMark is guffawing at the silliness of this discussion.
It's not utter nonsense. It's located in a suburban setting more particularly an inner suburban setting with more density. Like it or not, it is what it is.

However, if you want to call it an urban fill your boots. Its not a big issue, but you may want to change the Wikipedia page on Mic Mac Mall which says it's located in a suburban area.

Last edited by Haliguy; Oct 19, 2021 at 5:20 PM.
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  #2333  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 4:17 PM
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No no you see HSC and MMM aren't suburban because the dictionary says they aren't.
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  #2334  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
Sorry, I don't know of a kinder way to put it: that's just utter nonsense. It was built immediately adjacent to long-established residential city neighborhoods which were absolutely urban, about five minutes from the downtown core. There absolutely was nothing "suburban" about that area, either in location or character.
Don't mind me, just out for a walk to Halifax's premiere urban mall.







Totally not suburban at all. No chance.
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  #2335  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 4:49 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is online now
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Originally Posted by Saul Goode View Post
Sorry, I don't know of a kinder way to put it: that's just utter nonsense. It was built immediately adjacent to long-established residential city neighborhoods which were absolutely urban, about five minutes from the downtown core. There absolutely was nothing "suburban" about that area, either in location or character.

Anyone who knew that part of Dartmouth in the 60s and 70s would gladly confirm that, I'm sure. I bet OldDartmouthMark is guffawing at the silliness of this discussion.
Absolutely I am! I think Keith's analysis is pretty accurate and perhaps the best summation I've read on it.

I think what is happening here is that people are judging Dartmouth in the same context as a larger city where distinct urban/suburban divides are really obvious and evident. One has to understand that the City of Dartmouth was incorporated in 1961, but had existed as a colony and town since 1750. Halifax grew the most and the fastest of the two, but Dartmouth was there all along, and as Keith mentioned, additionally became a bedroom community to people who worked in Halifax after the Macdonald bridge was built in 1955.

The concept of suburbs sprouted out of the US in the 1950s and wasn't really a thing here until the 1960s when places like Westphal were created. The land on which Mic Mac Mall was built was considered part of the core of Dartmouth long before this concept was even thought of. In fact, you can see it included on this map from 1878, even though it wasn't developed yet - but was still considered as part of the Town of Dartmouth, which eventually became the City of Dartmouth.

Even if you look at it out of context, I think people are getting too much into their heads about what urban/suburban means. Although modern urban areas usually consist of high density areas with skyscrapers, etc., Dartmouth was never like this yet it was considered to be an urban city. However, other aspects of urban living did apply to MMM, such as walkability. Even back in the 1970s and 1980s I used to walk from the downtown Dartmouth area where I lived to MMM on a regular basis. I could have rode my bicycle there if I wanted to (the benchmark for urban living... lol) but I chose to walk instead, because it just wasn't that far.

So, yeah, I think the debate is a little inane, but have been amused by it nonetheless. When you start arguing about silly things like this, it makes me wonder why that energy isn't put into something more useful. As it is, I'm sure people will want to shoot holes in my post, but it is what it is. I grew up there and feel I have a pretty good idea on how the city was considered by most folks. Yes, MMM was accessible by people living in the actual suburbs, by car, but so was downtown Halifax. Does that make downtown Halifax a suburban area as well??
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  #2336  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 4:57 PM
gohaligo gohaligo is offline
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Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
That store was a bizarre design from the start and was always star-crossed. If you remember, it began as a Simpson's, to let them move out of their original 1920s-vintage store that Sears had taken over. That in itself was a real shame as the old Simpson's there was a gem of a store.

But the new one was a big disappointment from day one and did not improve when it flipped over to The Bay. Every department was shrunken from what it once was. It was located at the end of a very bad mall that had virtually no customer draw within it other then what became Sears at the opposite end. There was no real visibility to the fact that it was a department store from Chebucto Rd. There was just a tiny amount of surface parking and instead it depended upon a dark, multilevel parking garage which Halifax shoppers traditionally hate to use, with rickety, cold and dangerous-feeling elevators to take you up to the store floors. Then once it was built, the store never changed from what it was like on day one, with virtually no improvements or new interior finishes. It was just bad all around.
All true Keith P.
HBC's value is in their real estate portfolio not running Department store chains. They owned the old Halifax Bay store not the mall. In selling it they wound up with cash in pocket ($12m) and unloading a dog of a store as Keith P skillfully articulated. That building isn't currently owned by HSC. Although what used to be West End Mall is, the former Bay store is owned by Rank I think.

Apparently The Bay wanted the old Eaton's store in HSC but lost to Sears in the end. Ironically The Bay would have been the better choice.
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  #2337  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 5:24 PM
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It's too bad Simons fell through. I think that would have been a perfect spot for it.

Last edited by Haliguy; Oct 19, 2021 at 5:40 PM.
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  #2338  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 7:01 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
It's located in a suburban setting more particularly an inner suburban setting with more density.
I think the problem here is some people would ask "Is it in the city? Yes? Then it's urban." I'd quibble and say "it's in an urban area."

A different question is "is it suburban in nature and design despite being well within the bounds of the city?"

I think one would be hard pressed to look at these two satellite images of the areas around the two malls and claim that the broad swaths of residential subdivision (mostly detached single family homes) with very little commercial presence throughout have anything but a suburban character.



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  #2339  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 7:12 PM
Half-Axed Half-Axed is offline
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
So, yeah, I think the debate is a little inane, but have been amused by it nonetheless. When you start arguing about silly things like this, it makes me wonder why that energy isn't put into something more useful. As it is, I'm sure people will want to shoot holes in my post, but it is what it is. I grew up there and feel I have a pretty good idea on how the city was considered by most folks. Yes, MMM was accessible by people living in the actual suburbs, by car, but so was downtown Halifax. Does that make downtown Halifax a suburban area as well??
Halifax overall has very few really "urban" feeling streetscapes. Downtown Halifax and Downtown Dartmouth, some bits of the north end, a few "main streets" here and there in specific old neighbourhoods.

Keep in mind this is a development forum, so discussing the nature of neighbourhoods in "urban areas" is hardly inane or silly. It's pretty key to what kind of place you want the city to develop into. Do you want more sprawling subdivisions that have no retail? Do you want more fine-grained mixed-commercial residential? Something in between? How do you balance walkability and drivability? Vibrancy and quiet enjoyment? It matters.
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  #2340  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2021, 8:21 PM
Saul Goode Saul Goode is offline
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Originally Posted by Haliguy View Post
It's not utter nonsense. It's located in a suburban setting more particularly an inner suburban setting with more density. Like it or not, it is what it is.
By whose definition? I know the area intimately, and have known it intimately since well before the mall existed. Again, if you had told anyone who lived in the area at that time that they lived in a "suburb", they would've laughed in your face, and rightly so. And that was 50 years ago.

Quote:
However, if you want to call it an urban fill your boots. Its not a big issue, but you may want to change the Wikipedia page on Mic Mac Mall which says it's located in a suburban area.
It's inconceivable that I could possibly care less what Wikipedia says, so...
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