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  #41  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Miami is nothing like Chicago, and the next person on here who claims that the two cities are similar ought to be slapped so hard that the donut flies out of their mouth.
Uhh obviously they're very different cities, people are comparing vibrancy.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post

I live in both Pittsburgh and Miami. Downtown Pittsburgh is 10x more vibrant/active than downtown Miami... still. And I don't consider downtown Pittsburgh to be anywhere near top-tier vibrancy.
As stated many times, Miami's vibrancy and big city feels are in south beach.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:02 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yeah, any city can have a gleaming downtown full of new skyscrapers. That doesn't give much of a "big city feel" when the density drops to suburban single-family homes as soon as you're outside of the greater CBD (like say in Charlotte).

To me, "big city feel" comes from miles and miles of intermediate density neighborhoods. These are typified by residential vernacular denser than detached SFH, and generally anchored by strong neighborhood business districts with apartments on their upper stories.
Exactly. My house in Miami is basically in downtown Miami. I’m 2 blocks from Brickell Ave. I have a front yard, driveway, garage, and backyard with pool. A small lot, yes, but definitely a suburban environment. Houses closer to Brickell/Downtown than me have the same.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:04 PM
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^^ this photo illustrates the cut off to lower density

Aerial Cities Season 1 (2017) 4of6 Miami 24.mp4_000337348 by banjo seun, on Flickr
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  #45  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:04 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
As stated many times, Miami's vibrancy and big city feels are in south beach.
Well, south beach is definitely vibrant, but it is far from “big city”. It feels like a very vibrant resort area, far from a big city urban environment like one finds in NYC, Chicago, etc
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  #46  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Double L View Post
Hell, I don’t think there’s any city in the world that can live up to Chicago and NYC outside of Asia.
Chicago and NYC aren't particularly similar, especially at street level.

And vibrancy is subjective, obviously, but I think most neutral observers would be hard pressed to say that Sao Paulo, or Buenos Aires, or Madrid, or Paris, don't have significantly more street-level vibrancy than Chicago. And you can likely add in Barcelona, London, Istanbul, Mexico City, Rio and a few others.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Exactly. My house in Miami is basically in downtown Miami. I’m 2 blocks from Brickell Ave. I have a front yard, driveway, garage, and backyard with pool. A small lot, yes, but definitely a suburban environment. Houses closer to Brickell/Downtown than me have the same.
As an aside, I've always been shocked at how well Miami (and LA) do on Walkscore, and how unimpressive they look on streetview.

For example, this spot in Little Havana has a walkscore of 94! It's a little better if you go up/down the block a bit, but even at best it's just one-story commercial buildings (no apartments above) with big gaps in the street wall.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:34 PM
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To answer the question, though, Miami feels biggest, though it isn't particularly vibrant at street level, except a small area of South Beach. And Miami isn't Southern in my book.

New Orleans definitely has the best traditional urbanity, and Atlanta feels biggest among the New South metros. Texas is Texas, not the South, IMO (same with FL from Orlando south).
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  #49  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:35 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
As an aside, I've always been shocked at how well Miami (and LA) do on Walkscore, and how unimpressive they look on streetview.
Because Walkscore measures proximity to stuff, not quality of environment.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:37 PM
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One of the things I find strange about Atlanta is the degree to which it seems to build faux-historical areas like this. It's like it's somehow insecure about how little traditional urbanity it as, and wants to make up for it by building fake historic districts where there was nothing remotely historic to begin with.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Chicago and NYC aren't particularly similar, especially at street level.

And vibrancy is subjective, obviously, but I think most neutral observers would be hard pressed to say that Sao Paulo, or Buenos Aires, or Madrid, or Paris, don't have significantly more street-level vibrancy than Chicago. And you can likely add in Barcelona, London, Istanbul, Mexico City, Rio and a few others.
I think Chicago may have more street level vibrancy than São Paulo. Or at least as much on a per capita basis.

The other cities listed are all far more vibrant with pedestrian activity than either São Paulo or Chicago.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
One of the things I find strange about Atlanta is the degree to which it seems to build faux-historical areas like this. It's like it's somehow insecure about how little traditional urbanity it as, and wants to make up for it by building fake historic districts where there was nothing remotely historic to begin with.
That seems more like the “TOD” movement that created small neighborhoods from scratch, it’s not just Atlanta. Some are faux historical and some are modern looking with lots of glass.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:02 PM
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Phoenicia doesn't count? That’s a real grocery store. Plus there’s food halls and corner stores.
I can understand both sides but I was thinking more traditional. Personally, downtown Houston was becoming very interesting pre Covid compared to similar sun belt cities. It felt like we needed to close part of Main St like they do with 6th street Friday and Saturday to deal with the crowds. I just feel like Dallas and Atlanta are more “Disney”, which is just more of a personal taste thing. I like Houston’s grit, reminds me of New Orleans although they are definitely not the same from an urban perspective.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:12 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
One of the things I find strange about Atlanta is the degree to which it seems to build faux-historical areas like this. It's like it's somehow insecure about how little traditional urbanity it as, and wants to make up for it by building fake historic districts where there was nothing remotely historic to begin with.
That's Glenwood Park, a New Urbanist infill development surrounded on three sides by late 19th century historic core neighborhoods. I'm not seeing the validity of your criticism as the architecture more or less takes its cues from its surroundings.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:19 PM
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So I don't wanna get a sidebar talk about Atlanta context, but that development absolutely does not remotely resemble its environment. It looks like a UFO landed.

The surrounding blocks look like a very modest small town somewhere in the Deep South. The new urbanist development looks like a faux Mid-Atlantic environment, like a Disney Baltimore.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:24 PM
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Disney Baltimore could be really awesome on good acid. Or absolutely terrifying on bad acid.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:28 PM
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Originally Posted by TexasPlaya View Post
I can understand both sides but I was thinking more traditional. Personally, downtown Houston was becoming very interesting pre Covid compared to similar sun belt cities. It felt like we needed to close part of Main St like they do with 6th street Friday and Saturday to deal with the crowds. I just feel like Dallas and Atlanta are more “Disney”, which is just more of a personal taste thing. I like Houston’s grit, reminds me of New Orleans although they are definitely not the same from an urban perspective.
To me, downtown Atlanta is easily the most traditionally urban and grittiest of the three and it already has a downtown pedestrian plaza that you wish Houston had. But perhaps you are referring specifically to the Centennial Olympic Park area which is where many of the city's most popular tourist attractions, such as the World of Coca‑Cola, the Georgia Aquarium, the Center for Civil and Human Rights, the Atlanta Eye, CNN Center, the Children's Museum of Atlanta, and the College Football Hall of Fame, are concentrated. I can somewhat see the "Disney-ish" character there but that is only like one of five or so districts of downtown proper. The authenticity and historic character of Fairlie-Poplar, Five Points, South Downtown, the Government District, and Sweet Auburn more than make up for the Disneyfied part of downtown.

Last edited by KB0679; Jun 24, 2020 at 7:39 PM.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:32 PM
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Atlanta has some fantastic deals when it comes to high rises (purchasable units) and in general, condos. One can live above it all, for a fraction of the cost relative to Miami.

IMO, I think Miami has made great strides.

Does Richmond, VA count or is that too far North to be considered the South (Virginia is slowly becoming the North)? I think Richmond has some great urban streetscapes/general city vibe.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Chicago and NYC aren't particularly similar, especially at street level.

And vibrancy is subjective, obviously, but I think most neutral observers would be hard pressed to say that Sao Paulo, or Buenos Aires, or Madrid, or Paris, don't have significantly more street-level vibrancy than Chicago. And you can likely add in Barcelona, London, Istanbul, Mexico City, Rio and a few others.
That may be true but what these two cities Chicago and New York do have that is similar is what i call Original Skyscraper Folklore. Old skyscrapers that attract visitors from around the world who take architectural sightseeing tours to marvel over them. Buildings like Wrigley, Palmolive, Marina City,Merchandise Mart,Tribune Tower,etc in Chicago. In N.Y.C ESB ,Chrysler Bldg,Rockefeller Center and so many more.And believe me with the large number of visitors attracted to these architectural skyscraper gems it adds greatly to the street -level vibrancy of these two cities that i have not seen duplicated.world-wide.And to the original question ..Southern cities with a " big city" feel, both Miami and Houston stand out as having a multi-cultural appeal like you find in both N.Y and Chicago.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2020, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Atlanta has some fantastic deals when it comes to high rises (purchasable units) and in general, condos. One can live above it all, for a fraction of the cost relative to Miami.

IMO, I think Miami has made great strides.
.
Well yeah, because the condo is in Atlanta and not in Miami. An international, coastal, vacation city is going to be far more sought after than an interior city in the Deep South.

Miami has made huge strides. I’ve there part-time since the early 1990s. But for the massive construction boom that had occurred in downtown since the early 2000s, one would expect it to be far more vibrant than it is. But since a large % of the construction is high-rise condos on parking pedestals (many of which are part-time residences or not lived in at all), street-level activity is not commensurate with the huge boom.
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