Hudsons Bay Building (Winnipeg) Redevelopment

[scryer]

Originally Posted by CoryB

I have heard that two of the biggest challenges with a residential conversion as you purpose is the large floor size of the building and the significantly above market cost to renovate the space. The floor size is a challenge as the amount of space access to natural light within a reasonable distance makes residential conversion challenging. ie would you say want a two bedroom apartment/condo where one bedroom has a window, the second doesn't and the shared living space/kitchen also doesn't have any natural light? It's why the "donut" concept is popular, basically making one or more light wells into the building but that wouldn't be done cheaply. The other challenge is downtown Winnipeg doesn't currently have a high enough demand for residential that charging people a premium for this project could make it work.

True. The city would have to change its residential priorities to make it work. It would almost need a cultural reset.

Originally Posted by CoryB

I have been an advocate of Manitoba doing more to foster tech startups for a number of years now. The economic return from feeding the tech guppies and helping them whales is going to be far more successful long term then putting that same sort of money to launch a campaign to try and bring home an existing tech whale (Amazon HQ2).

I agree. Why not try to grow our very own tech giant here in Winnipeg ? The problem right now is that everyone is trying to rush to develop tech. By the time our slow government decides to act on it, we will have to carve out Winnipeg as a very niche market for tech innovators.

Originally Posted by CoryB

That said I think a better place for the tech accelerator would actually be the Exchange or perhaps the Marketlands development. Many of the existing like minded companies are already located there and setting up something like a WeWork space in the area could further expand what has been happening organically. That said I have to wonder what sort of long term impact the current pandemic will have on places like WeWork. There has definitely been a shift from the need for physical presence to more acceptance of an online one. I think new startups are going to be better positioned to take advantage of that than more established companies with significant investments in office spaces.

Tech-culturally speaking, yes: the Exchange and the Marketlands would traditionally be a location that they would naturally go to. Although there are still lots of opportunities to develop denser in the Exchange district (specifically I am looking at these parking lots), I don't think that the lots available would be able to support structures that offer a large floor plate like The Bay building would - that would be a very good niche market that The Bay could appeal to. I'm also unfamiliar with the office vacancy rate that the Exchange district currently has so maybe there's an empty building that needs to be filled as well? Maybe we wouldn't attract a tech giant like Amazon but we could certainly fill the building with several tech companies if the city/provincial government chose to pursue this course of action to attract jobs.

I also wanted to mention that True North Square is a development that introduced itself as a piece of updated urban infrastructure that Winnipeg needed; and that if the Portage Place mall gets its update then the immediate area is going to feel renewed. I realize that this is years away but if you combine TNS, an updated Portage Place, and a decent amount of tech workers in the immediate area (via a Bay face-lift) then you'll create a very vibrant corner of downtown Winnipeg in the future.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by DirtWednesday

As an Indigenous person born in Thompson, I'd religiously make jokes about avoiding the small pox blanket displays at the Bay. They'd always set them up by an exit, which would make me alter my path - just to be safe.

thompson haha yea i dont blame yea

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by esquire

With Bold as an anchor tenant suddenly a tech incubator space seems more feasible...

Bold...the app developer? Awful company. Lots of...well lets just say the owners are probably Trump fans

[scryer]

Originally Posted by The Unknown Poster

Bold...the app developer? Awful company. Lots of...well lets just say the owners are probably Trump fans

Why does everything need to unnecessarily involve American politics? If you don't like Bold's products: cool. But why involve disdain for American politics in a Canadian forum to try to paint the employees with a certain political lean?

[bomberjet]

The Canadian Conservatives are actively trying to mimic Trump and admit it on camera. And then try to walk it back because Trump lost. Sorry off topic.

[Labroco]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The Canadian Conservatives are actively trying to mimic Trump and admit it on camera. And then try to walk it back because Trump lost. Sorry off topic.

And this has what to do with a development plan or historic comment about Wpg’s HBC?

[buzzg]

The de facto "tech hub" area of Winnipeg is still completely up for grabs.

Market Lands is trying to distinctly focus on arts vs. tech or anything else (to help artists/groups that are being priced out of the area). The larger of the 2 public buildings already has most of the commercial dedicated to arts groups.

While they Exchange naturally attracts tech people and startups – the bigger tech companies tend to hate heritage buildings: difficult to work with, pain in the ass for IT, usually no open floor plans. I know Skip is thrilled to be out of heritage buildings – that's why all the options for a new location were brand new buildings.

The Forks idea with Skip anchoring fell through.

TNS has 1 tech company in Skip, unless Wawa is going to try and snag one to take some space.

The Exchange is the most obvious place and is currently great for startups, but difficult for scale-ups and large MNEs. Until more large new buildings start replacing parking lots (or small buildings) in the Exchange, it will never live up to its tech potential. I've heard from World Trade Centre they want to try and "build" a "tech hub" in the Exchange, but they also are of the mind it will take new buildings to truly do that and attract new out of market companies to locate or open offices here.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by buzzg

The de facto "tech hub" area of Winnipeg is still completely up for grabs.

True. I also have to question whether we specifically need a hub or if we can sprinkle and spread tech throughout downtown with the right initiatives?

Originally Posted by buzzg

While they Exchange naturally attracts tech people and startups – the bigger tech companies tend to hate heritage buildings: difficult to work with, pain in the ass for IT, usually no open floor plans. I know Skip is thrilled to be out of heritage buildings – that's why all the options for a new location were brand new buildings.

I think that Winnipeg's tech niche here may be that the city could be a great place for start-ups. I can see Winnipeg developing its niche into trying to attract many small-medium (<500 employees) tech companies in the city as opposed to focusing on attracting large tech companies (>500 employees).

Originally Posted by buzzg

The Exchange is the most obvious place and is currently great for startups, but difficult for scale-ups and large MNEs. Until more large new buildings start replacing parking lots (or small buildings) in the Exchange, it will never live up to its tech potential.

You said it so much better than I did . With the Bay, it actually provides a unique opportunity for Winnipeg to attract larger tech businesses with its larger floorplates. You just need a developer to take over and re-do the inside a bit to provide that kind of open floor plan, along with the other necessary upgrades and updates. And then there's the Bay's parkade that could also be redeveloped as well if it it's underused, meaning that there is a lot of space to work with.

Don't get me wrong, at this point in time, I absolutely think that Winnipeg has a good set of bones to attract small to medium sized tech companies with a few incentives provided by the government. But I also think that the Bay could be exceptional in attracting a medium-large tech tenant if the proper adjustments are made.

Originally Posted by buzzg

I've heard from World Trade Centre they want to try and "build" a "tech hub" in the Exchange, but they also are of the mind it will take new buildings to truly do that and attract new out of market companies to locate or open offices here.

Are you able to expand what you mean by "out of market"? Do you mean like startups that don't originate from Winnipeg?

[KellyEdwards]

The problem with Winnipeg's attempt to attract the tech industry is that they're gearing themselves towards established companies only.

The tech industry is often synonymous with startups.

When you only have so much runway left, you look for the cheapest everything both personal and work-related. Cheap cost of living, cheaper talent and cheaper space are exactly why startups around the world move to countries that make them attractive.

This combined with subsidies, conditional startup cash and a little adjustment to government/tenancy regulation go a long way. But everything in Manitoba is so incredibly political it's insanity to me!

The fact that Manitoba Hydro was even allowed to discourage the tech industry for electricity use were major red flags for the industry and the general public has no idea. Before the board was wiped away a few years ago, let's just say that was the dumbest board meeting I've ever had and probably will ever have!

There are so many tangents I can go on about with what Manitoba is doing wrong, but let's just say as someone who was a key component to at least one major tech development centre in Canada, Winnipeg DOES have an opportunity and business case to do things a little different than all other Canadian cities.

Anyway, that's enough of my rant. Build a common office with a WeWork-like business model in one of the floors of the HBC and I guarantee you it will fill up! Current desk rentals in Winnipeg don't provide the same culture and they're incredibly expensive for startups.

After renting a few desks, you're already better off just getting a storefront to rent for cheaper 10 minutes away down the road. That's the problem.

Hope they find some good use for this space!

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by KellyEdwards

Anyway, that's enough of my rant. Build a common office with a WeWork-like business model in one of the floors of the HBC and I guarantee you it will fill up! Current desk rentals in Winnipeg don't provide the same culture and they're incredibly expensive for startups.

After renting a few desks, you're already better off just getting a storefront to rent for cheaper 10 minutes away down the road. That's the problem.

The second paragraph is why a WeWork space in the Hudsons Bay building as you suggest is a complete non-starter. You are trying to retrofit a building constructed in 1925. Not only does it lack the electrical and network to support WeWork (or similar) but you need to clean the space first to remove environmental hazards like asbestos. This pushes the finished cost per sq ft above almost every similar location in downtown Winnipeg.

With the reports that 201 Portage (aka former TD tower at Portage and Main) have a significant vacancy rate that would be a more ideal location for something like WeWork and actually hosted one not too long ago but not sure what became of it. More than any other downtown tower they have likely been hit the hardest losing multiple floors from Agricore, Canwest, TD, MNP and TDS (major local law firm). That said as a late 80s building it would be a much better fit for something like a bit WeWork push.

[esquire]

^ On that note, it's curious how 201 Portage quickly went from being pretty much the undisputed prestige address downtown to a half-empty afterthought. I wonder what Harvard's plan is?

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by scryer

Are you able to expand what you mean by "out of market"? Do you mean like startups that don't originate from Winnipeg?

Yeah I just mean companies that don't already have a (physical) presence here.

Originally Posted by KellyEdwards

The problem with Winnipeg's attempt to attract the tech industry is that they're gearing themselves towards established companies only.

The tech industry is often synonymous with startups.

Totally – we (the government and post secondaries mainly) need to do a better job at fostering and supporting startup ecosystems. There's many ways to do that.

While I agree that a planned "tech hub" isn't necessarily a silver bullet or makes a lot of sense on the surface – having a density of a certain type of business in a specific area absolutely has spinoff affects and fosters more growth, collaboration, interest.

The other challenge tech startups in Winnipeg is really tied to our social norms – those good ol' hard-working, family-owned prairie businesses that stay in the family for generations: WE NEED MORE EXITS. I do lots of work with tech companies and orgs, and whenever I talk to experts from other countries, they always say exits are the most important thing to growing tech sectors/hubs. We need founders who can successfully grow companies to sell them: a) to bring money into the market b) so they go start more companies.

Many founders are serial entrepreneurs and generally go on to create another startup after an exit. If every tech startup here sold to a new investor/owner, good chance they go on to start another company and all of a sudden we've doubled the amount of tech companies here. Skip's sale has already spawned 4 new tech companies (lots more on the way) – a problem though is our government hasn't created a great tech environment here, so they're all based in other western provinces. Neo is looking to open a satellite office here this year, could be anywhere from 10-70 employees – but HQ is Calgary.

Originally Posted by CoryB

With the reports that 201 Portage (aka former TD tower at Portage and Main) have a significant vacancy rate that would be a more ideal location for something like WeWork and actually hosted one not too long ago but not sure what became of it. More than any other downtown tower they have likely been hit the hardest losing multiple floors from Agricore, Canwest, TD, MNP and TDS (major local law firm). That said as a late 80s building it would be a much better fit for something like a bit WeWork push.

Both the WeWorks in Calgary are up in office towers (Stephen Ave Place and The Edison) so that would definitely be a good fit for 201.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ On that note, it's curious how 201 Portage quickly went from being pretty much the undisputed prestige address downtown to a half-empty afterthought. I wonder what Harvard's plan is?

Well they're currently undertaking a multi-million dollar top-to-bottom renovation inside and out, so it seems like they have a plan. It fell off because it hadn't been touched in 30 years. Natural lifecycle of buildings.

[The Unknown Poster]

Originally Posted by scryer

Why does everything need to unnecessarily involve American politics? If you don't like Bold's products: cool. But why involve disdain for American politics in a Canadian forum to try to paint the employees with a certain political lean?

I was actually using Trumpism as an easy way to describe the beliefs and behaviour of the owners/management of a business, much like that restaurant that has been discussed here (not Stella's, the other one).

If treating Trumpism like its bad offends you, hey, you do you. I would actually not be surprised if the bold guys arent remotely politically active. I just didnt want to get into specific detail about things...just that, if any company deserves success, its not that one. Although there are many employees there that deserve success. Maybe the larger they get, the better the culture will be.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by buzzg

Well they're currently undertaking a multi-million dollar top-to-bottom renovation inside and out, so it seems like they have a plan. It fell off because it hadn't been touched in 30 years. Natural lifecycle of buildings.

Losing two major tenants, Agricore and Canwest, when they consolidated/moved operations out of Winnipeg really started the decline for 201 Portage Ave and had little to do with the state of the building. TDS and MNP obviously defected to TNS to be close to the coveted Chipman/Jets empire. It is worth nothing that a different law firm apparently moved into the vacated TDS space, likely from a different downtown tower.

Not sure why TD moved or where there non-retail spaces went but they are definitely gone. I know IG was temporarily in the minimally renovated spaces while building their own office in a different location outside of downtown, and for clarity the office moved from outside of downtown to downtown temporarily to move back out of downtown to their new office.

It is also more minor but in the wake of the other vacancies 201 Portage had Good Life move into one of the tower floors and replace the smaller/independent fitness facility that ran out of the ground level of the attached parakde. Good Life has moved (or will soon be moving) to the new space over Winnipeg Square.

[bomberjet]

Agricore is soo 2005. Viterra.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Losing two major tenants, Agricore and Canwest, when they consolidated/moved operations out of Winnipeg really started the decline for 201 Portage Ave and had little to do with the state of the building. TDS and MNP obviously defected to TNS to be close to the coveted Chipman/Jets empire. It is worth nothing that a different law firm apparently moved into the vacated TDS space, likely from a different downtown tower.

Not sure why TD moved or where there non-retail spaces went but they are definitely gone. I know IG was temporarily in the minimally renovated spaces while building their own office in a different location outside of downtown, and for clarity the office moved from outside of downtown to downtown temporarily to move back out of downtown to their new office.

It is also more minor but in the wake of the other vacancies 201 Portage had Good Life move into one of the tower floors and replace the smaller/independent fitness facility that ran out of the ground level of the attached parakde. Good Life has moved (or will soon be moving) to the new space over Winnipeg Square.

It was Taylor McCaffrey that moved from it's old digs on St Mary (on the SE corner with Kennedy) across the street from the old pony corral. It is true to form with the other major players aside from TDS. Apparently the old place was better though, even had a rooftop patio for their employees and by the sounds of it had some pretty cool staff parties up there.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

It was Taylor McCaffrey that moved from it's old digs on St Mary (on the SE corner with Kennedy) across the street from the old pony corral. It is true to form with the other major players aside from TDS. Apparently the old place was better though, even had a rooftop patio for their employees and by the sounds of it had some pretty cool staff parties up there.

Was at an event at the Taylor McCaffrey patio (at the old location) and it was definitely one of the fancier private spaces I have seen in Winnipeg. If another office isn't moving in I wouldn't be surprised, pandemic aside, to see it become an event space that could be rented out.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Was at an event at the Taylor McCaffrey patio (at the old location) and it was definitely one of the fancier private spaces I have seen in Winnipeg. If another office isn't moving in I wouldn't be surprised, pandemic aside, to see it become an event space that could be rented out.

That would be pretty neat. I don't know what it is about rooftops, but I'm a big fan of them. The view would be pretty great there too.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

That would be pretty neat. I don't know what it is about rooftops, but I'm a big fan of them. The view would be pretty great there too.

As the view is mostly south facing it isn't as exciting as it could be but it is still somewhat special in downtown Winnipeg.

[🌳🌱🌿🌴🍁]

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