Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[CrestedSaguaro]

I was out West today and was scoping out the phase 2 of Northern Parkway which is coming along nicely. Most of the frontage road is completed, overpasses are underway and the Agua Fria Bridge has been completed.

But I have a question that I can't find an answer to. Looking at the project, the future phase 3 will be going right between two housing developments on both sides of Northern between 111th and 107th Ave's. There doesn't appear to be enough space for the Parkway alignment to fit between these 2 plats of homes...especially if they plan on building frontage roads which has been done so far along the majority of the current Parkway. Are they planning on demolishing some of the houses? They seem to be fairly new.

Also, they are building a warehouse on the SE corner of Northern and 107th Ave. Doesn't seem to be much room left for the parkway to go through there either

[xymox]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

I was out West today and was scoping out the phase 2 of Northern Parkway which is coming along nicely. Most of the frontage road is completed, overpasses are underway and the Agua Fria Bridge has been completed.

But I have a question that I can't find an answer to. Looking at the project, the future phase 3 will be going right between two housing developments on both sides of Northern between 111th and 107th Ave's. There doesn't appear to be enough space for the Parkway alignment to fit between these 2 plats of homes...especially if they plan on building frontage roads which has been done so far along the majority of the current Parkway. Are they planning on demolishing some of the houses? They seem to be fairly new.

Also, they are building a warehouse on the SE corner of Northern and 107th Ave. Doesn't seem to be much room left for the parkway to go through there either

Not sure if this helps:

http://apps.mcdot.maricopa.gov/Proje...n-parkway.aspx

The phase you're questioning says 'six lane highway' - so that doesn't seem to imply frontage roads to me.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by xymox

Not sure if this helps:

http://apps.mcdot.maricopa.gov/Proje...n-parkway.aspx

The phase you're questioning says 'six lane highway' - so that doesn't seem to imply frontage roads to me.

Already follow that site and I did notice 6 lane highway after I posted my question. There still not enough room it seems in the area I am questioning, but oh well. I'm not an engineer and they'll make it work whether houses are removed or not.

I did some more research and apparently the remainder of Northern Parkway from Agua Fria to eventually Grand Ave will NOT be limited access with controlled intersections along the way ending in a flyover ramp to S. Grand Ave. This will also include bike lanes and sidewalks on each side. Bike lanes will not be protected which I think is a big flaw for this design.

I was really hoping this was going to be limited access all the way to Grand

[xymox]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

Already follow that site and I did notice 6 lane highway after I posted my question. There still not enough room it seems in the area I am questioning, but oh well. I'm not an engineer and they'll make it work whether houses are removed or not.

I did some more research and apparently the remainder of Northern Parkway from Agua Fria to eventually Grand Ave will NOT be limited access with controlled intersections along the way ending in a flyover ramp to S. Grand Ave. This will also include bike lanes and sidewalks on each side. Bike lanes will not be protected which I think is a big flaw for this design.

I was really hoping this was going to be limited access all the way to Grand

Wow - really? That kinda goes against the whole vision of this thing. Probably realized they didn’t have the money/time to build out what they wanted? Or did the NIMBYs get their way?

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by xymox

Wow - really? That kinda goes against the whole vision of this thing. Probably realized they didn’t have the money/time to build out what they wanted? Or did the NIMBYs get their way?

The plans are dated Dec. 2018, so I think that's the general plan for now unless something changes. I am not sure why it changed, but I do suspect funding may be the culprit. If you click on the "TT0573 – Northern Parkway: 99th Ave to Grand Avenue Scoping", the roadway details are all there. Even though it states from 99th Ave, I'm assuming this will actually be from the Agua Fria river crossing due to the housing developments and said 6-lane configuration with no frontage roads.

It really really is disappointing. The West valley really needs a limited access lateral. I think it would help tremendously with getting traffic off I-10 and the 101 for those that live in Glendale.

[biggus diggus]

They can't do limited access on Northern. Have any of you driven out that way? Too many businesses and apartments that need access.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

They can't do limited access on Northern. Have any of you driven out that way? Too many businesses and apartments that need access.

Did you not see where I said I was just checking it out yesterday? And yes, I get out that way quite often. There is more than enough room to do limited access. There are large amounts of undeveloped land, especially West of the 101 and even close to Grand. If you pull up the area on Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.5500.../data=!3m1!1e3), you can clearly see how much space there is to build. What's left along Northern besides the few housing developments are some very dated housing and business lots that would not be a substantial loss if demo'd.

Also, this was ALWAYS the plan until apparently Dec. 2018 as I stated above, probably due to funding as they were having issues getting full funding for the 2nd phase.

[biggus diggus]

I'm out there frequently. A limited access freeway is not going to happen. I own a home on 109th just south of Northern in Country Meadows and we have received *many* mailings from ADOT, the City of Peoria and MAG. There will be ongoing discussions about this as they've involved the neighborhood property owners.

A ROW has been preserved for decades as this was part of a long term plan, you can see the ROW if you peruse Google Maps. There may physically be room for a limited access freeway but the reality is it could never be built while maintaining access to businesses and homes. It's funny that your take seems to be "I want a limited access freeway so all these people should have to deal with it and their buildings are expendable".

[KEVINphx]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I'm out there frequently. A limited access freeway is not going to happen. I own a home on 109th just south of Northern in Country Meadows and we have received *many* mailings from ADOT, the City of Peoria and MAG. There will be ongoing discussions about this as they've involved the neighborhood property owners.

A ROW has been preserved for decades as this was part of a long term plan, you can see the ROW if you peruse Google Maps. There may physically be room for a limited access freeway but the reality is it could never be built while maintaining access to businesses and homes. It's funny that your take seems to be "I want a limited access freeway so all these people should have to deal with it and their buildings are expendable".

Technically they are expendable - if the owners are properly reimbursed at market rate - it could be justifiable with future populations and obviously serving substantially more population than those that live directly along Northern.

I'm not saying it wouldn't affect businesses but if there were access points along 99th and 91st, where most of the commercial businesses are located and you could still access them from 99th and 91st themselves then they could continue to serve the community with relative ease of access.

I am out that way all the time as my business is located out by the AFB and I take either Northern or Glendale. I also own a home at Rovey Farms and have wondered how it could pass that stretch of Northern as well as where your property is located - it seems awfully narrow to fit what they have put out west of Dysart - I would imagine it would require acquisition of homes on either the north or south side perhaps - the landscape areas at Rovey Farms are enormous as well but I imagine the HOAs own those parcels . . . I'm just barely not curious enough to look for these easements or the assessor's maps

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by KEVINphx

Technically they are expendable - if the owners are properly reimbursed at market rate

This is every bit as the pedantic argument you won't stop having in the other thread, so I'm nervous to engage you but I'll give it a shot.

The total compensation they would have to make would be so astronomical I feel pretty certain it would be just like the Paradise Parkway. There is hundreds of millions of dollars of privately owned land they would need to acquire for exit ramps and business owners would likely be granted compensation by a judge if it ever had to go that far. It's simply not feasible.

So, yes technically it is possible they could build a limited access freeway there. It's also technically possible I could sleep with Sofia Vergara but in reality that's not really feasible. Calling hundreds of millions of dollars of private investment "expendable" just doesn't really make any sense to me. I can't imagine that you really think that, either. I potentially believe you just want to be right so you're arguing.

Edit: forgot to say you're partially right on your last point. The ROW is technically wide enough to put in a six lane divided highway. It is potentially not wide enough for exit ramps, however. We have been arguing about that a lot lately, people keep bringing up exactly what we are discussing. It seems everyone who favors limited access has not stopped to think about all the factual information at hand and just emotionally wants a freeway to get across town faster.

[xymox]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

This is every bit as the pedantic argument you won't stop having in the other thread, so I'm nervous to engage you but I'll give it a shot.

The total compensation they would have to make would be so astronomical I feel pretty certain it would be just like the Paradise Parkway. There is hundreds of millions of dollars of privately owned land they would need to acquire for exit ramps and business owners would likely be granted compensation by a judge if it ever had to go that far. It's simply not feasible.

So, yes technically it is possible they could build a limited access freeway there. It's also technically possible I could sleep with Sofia Vergara but in reality that's not really feasible. Calling hundreds of millions of dollars of private investment "expendable" just doesn't really make any sense to me. I can't imagine that you really think that, either. I potentially believe you just want to be right so you're arguing.

Edit: forgot to say you're partially right on your last point. The ROW is technically wide enough to put in a six lane divided highway. It is potentially not wide enough for exit ramps, however. We have been arguing about that a lot lately, people keep bringing up exactly what we are discussing. It seems everyone who favors limited access has not stopped to think about all the factual information at hand and just emotionally wants a freeway to get across town faster.

Seems like CA does a lot of 4 lane highways that have exit/entry ramps into neighborhoods in tight ROW just like this. Granted they may have been done in an era when there were different regulations - but there are many 'unexpected' entrance ramps to the 101 in San Mateo out of just normal neighborhoods. I've even noticed this on other smaller freeways in the LA area as well around Pasadena for example.

Not every highway needs to be six lanes - if we had a few more smaller freeways like they do in CA, that could help with cross town traffic. I think that's what ADOT has been trying to push for with the 'AZ Parkway' plans - which in so far as I can tell - have never actually been implemented anywhere since being defined over 10 years ago.

[combusean]

Having taken many of those dated California exits/merges, they're dangerous as hell. You just don't get that much room to accelerate and you come up on nearly blind merges.

California drivers can understand this and mostly understand how to "thread the needle"--I have been nearly run off the road trying to take the HOV onramp on I-10 in Phoenix and that's a full half mile.

Caltrans is spending enormous amounts of money to rebuild dated onramps to modern standards. Building them new is a bad idea for many reasons.

[muertecaza]

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by muertecaza

Looks similar to the short platforms on the Tucson streetcar route. One thing I really like is that the position of the platforms creates a protected bike lane in some places.

[ASU Diablo]

Well that was fast...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ek/3340674001/

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

Well that was fast...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ek/3340674001/

How is this possible? I'm sure there are all kinds of inspections and such that need to be completed before they are allowed to open the bridge again. Roadways that are damaged from rock slides can be out for several weeks or even months.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by CrestedSaguaro

How is this possible? I'm sure there are all kinds of inspections and such that need to be completed before they are allowed to open the bridge again. Roadways that are damaged from rock slides can be out for several weeks or even months.

It does seem amazingly quick and might arouse suspicion in the same way as the Russian vaccine just announced. Then again, it makes me wish light rail could be built this quickly.

[biggus diggus]

Permits for necessary services are fast tracked and especially if they are rebuilding it exactly as it was they'll get a green light very quickly.

[KEVINphx]

mods please delete - waste of time

[KEVINphx]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

This is every bit as the pedantic argument you won't stop having in the other thread, so I'm nervous to engage you but I'll give it a shot.

The total compensation they would have to make would be so astronomical I feel pretty certain it would be just like the Paradise Parkway. There is hundreds of millions of dollars of privately owned land they would need to acquire for exit ramps and business owners would likely be granted compensation by a judge if it ever had to go that far. It's simply not feasible.

So, yes technically it is possible they could build a limited access freeway there. It's also technically possible I could sleep with Sofia Vergara but in reality that's not really feasible. Calling hundreds of millions of dollars of private investment "expendable" just doesn't really make any sense to me. I can't imagine that you really think that, either. I potentially believe you just want to be right so you're arguing.

Edit: forgot to say you're partially right on your last point. The ROW is technically wide enough to put in a six lane divided highway. It is potentially not wide enough for exit ramps, however. We have been arguing about that a lot lately, people keep bringing up exactly what we are discussing. It seems everyone who favors limited access has not stopped to think about all the factual information at hand and just emotionally wants a freeway to get across town faster.

You were too triggered to even respond (OR QUOTE) my entire post which certainly was a lot more nuanced than your thick-skulled response would incline.

YOU are the one attempting to be "right" here and certainly being pedantic.

ALL I fucking said was "I'm not saying it wouldn't affect businesses but if there were access points along 99th and 91st, where most of the commercial businesses are located and you could still access them from 99th and 91st themselves then they could continue to serve the community with relative ease of access.

I am out that way all the time as my business is located out by the AFB and I take either Northern or Glendale. I also own a home at Rovey Farms and have wondered how it could pass that stretch of Northern as well as where your property is located - it seems awfully narrow to fit what they have put out west of Dysart - I would imagine it would require acquisition of homes on either the north or south side perhaps - the landscape areas at Rovey Farms are enormous as well but I imagine the HOAs own those parcels . . . I'm just barely not curious enough to look for these easements or the assessor's maps"

You didn't really address anything I said - not that I expect you to do so, but don't blindly insult me when I was being genuinely curious. That's called being a cunt.

Also, if there IS indeed a preserved ROW for this thing and it could "technically" fit then it could be done without acquisition of private property? If not, how many do you think would need to be purchased/demolished?

Show me or explain to me the businesses that I did not cover in the above that would have access affected (aside from during construction) ? ? ? I am curious what I am missing.

Again, I'm not saying I'm "right" as I also am out that way daily and have owned homes and a business out that way for a very very very long time. Also - is the amount of homes similar to the Paradise Parkway - I know the real estate values are NOWHERE near comparable . . . Might I also ask, WHO, is it exactly that you feel "emotionally" wants a "freeway" to "get across town faster" ? ? ? Perhaps it is YOU who does not think about all the "factual information at hand" such as the future projected growth of the West Valley and the pressure that is going to put on the existing transportation infrastructure etc - you come across very condescending.