PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread II

[PHLtoNYC]

'The math just doesn't work': Roosevelt Boulevard SEPTA line not feasible with agency's current funding
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...Pos=1#cxrecs_s

Residents of Northeast Philadelphia will have to continue waiting for a subway route connecting them to Center City. A proposed route along Roosevelt Boulevard, the idea for which was first floated more than a century ago, isn't currently financially feasible, said Southeastern Pennsylvania Transit Authority CEO and General Manager Leslie Richards.

To build the underground subway route could cost more than $3 billion, Richards estimates. That's a pricey project even with SEPTA’s current $1 billion capital budget, the largest the transit authority has ever had. Its capital budget usually is between $600 million and $700 million.

While a Roosevelt Boulevard project may not be possible with SEPTA's current funding, the increased capital budget, along with federal Covid-19 relief funds has allowed the agency to invest in necessary system updates and another route. Upgrades include a trolley modernization project, trolley vehicle replacements, subway and regional rail cars, plus the $2 billion King of Prussia rail line.

Unlike the proposed Roosevelt Boulevard project, the King of Prussia line is above ground on raised platforms, making it less costly than an underground subway.

“I'm not saying that that's cheap, but it's not digging under a fully developed city,” Richards added.

[Busy Bee]

It's like they get it, but simultaneously don't get it.

KoP extension is THE WORST transit project in the country. Not only is it stupid and hideously overpriced, it's robbing funding and focus from a project that truly deserves it.

[iheartphilly]

Maybe we can avoid what is to come like this:

https://nypost.com/2023/01/25/nyc-fi...-to-manhattan/

$9 billion over-budget for an original $2 billion dollar budget. Gosh, if we all balanced our check book this way.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

It's like they get it, but simultaneously don't get it.

KoP extension is THE WORST transit project in the country. Not only is it stupid and hideously overpriced, it's robbing funding and focus from a project that truly deserves it.

Building KOP rail barely saves you time on commuting to KOP.
Building the Roosevelt subway can save you up 30 minutes in commute time. WILD that Septa rejects the subway. Of course Septa doesn't have money what transit agency has money? More than half of this project would have came from federal funds.

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

Building KOP rail barely saves you time on commuting to KOP.
Building the Roosevelt subway can save you up 30 minutes in commute time. WILD that Septa rejects the subway. Of course Septa doesn't have money what transit agency has money? More than half of this project would have came from federal funds.

Somewhere down the line I think we’re going to find out about some shady behind the scenes corruption on this deal

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

Building KOP rail barely saves you time on commuting to KOP.
Building the Roosevelt subway can save you up 30 minutes in commute time. WILD that Septa rejects the subway. Of course Septa doesn't have money what transit agency has money? More than half of this project would have came from federal funds.

People are blinded by the absolute horror show driving on the Schuykill Express is. I commute on that bloodbath so the idea of a KOP line sounds amazing.

(Kidding)

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

“I'm not saying that that's cheap, but it's not digging under a fully developed city,” Richards added.

Leslie, that is why subways are built

[BroadandMarket]

Honestly I don't even see the Blvd Subway as best use of 3 billion. If we're building a new line, the focus IMO should be making the city from Lehigh to Oregon as urban as possible where public transit is already a way of life. Philly could really use 2 more lines running parallel to the Broad Street Line (5th and 22nd) and then another east-west on Synder and Lehigh or Cecil. I just think it's a priority to make the core of the city better connected before we focus on lower population areas.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

'The math just doesn't work': Roosevelt Boulevard SEPTA line not feasible with agency's current funding
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...Pos=1#cxrecs_s

Residents of Northeast Philadelphia will have to continue waiting for a subway route connecting them to Center City. A proposed route along Roosevelt Boulevard, the idea for which was first floated more than a century ago, isn't currently financially feasible, said Southeastern Pennsylvania Transit Authority CEO and General Manager Leslie Richards.

To build the underground subway route could cost more than $3 billion, Richards estimates. That's a pricey project even with SEPTA’s current $1 billion capital budget, the largest the transit authority has ever had. Its capital budget usually is between $600 million and $700 million.

While a Roosevelt Boulevard project may not be possible with SEPTA's current funding, the increased capital budget, along with federal Covid-19 relief funds has allowed the agency to invest in necessary system updates and another route. Upgrades include a trolley modernization project, trolley vehicle replacements, subway and regional rail cars, plus the $2 billion King of Prussia rail line.

Unlike the proposed Roosevelt Boulevard project, the King of Prussia line is above ground on raised platforms, making it less costly than an underground subway.

“I'm not saying that that's cheap, but it's not digging under a fully developed city,” Richards added.

This is insane. How does this person have a job? $3 billion is too much but $2 billion for a suburban extension that will serve a couple thousand people a day at most is a-okay.

Refresh my memory. What are the projected ridership numbers between KOP versus the Boulevard Extension?

[Busy Bee]

Also the right of way is right there in the median as designed. Its not like we're tunneling under central London, underpinning 18th century buildings along the way.

[japmes]

Wow, that’s a bad article for SEPTA. Something smells corrupt.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This is insane. How does this person have a job? $3 billion is too much but $2 billion for a suburban extension that will serve a couple thousand people a day at most is a-okay.

Refresh my memory. What are the projected ridership numbers between KOP versus the Boulevard Extension?

Thought the same thing...

Someone may have better info, but...
KoP projected ~9,700 daily rides.
Roosevelt Subway Line projected ~124K. Not even comparable...

https://billypenn.com/2022/10/30/sep...n-controversy/

https://whyy.org/articles/roosevelt-...cture-funding/

[PHLtoNYC]

The best development news of the week! Officially a go! I wish this could get its own thread.

Condo project at Dilworth house in Society Hill is underway after two decades of strife
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20230127.html

More than two decades after John Turchi purchased Mayor Richardson Dilworth’s former home on Washington Square, construction is underway at 223 S. Sixth St.

After years of legal battles, Turchi won the right to build a 12-story condo building while preserving part of the older house just before the pandemic began. But the project being built today is slightly different from the version that won city approvals in 2019, having been shrunk from 10 units to nine.
And now a new owner will see it through.

The units will range between 2,600 and 5,000 square feet. Shaaban said that it was too soon to say exactly what the prices for individual units would be, but that they would be “in line” with the company’s other products. These range, he said, from $800 a square foot to $1,500 a square foot. That would put the largest unit between $4 million and $7.5 million, with the high end more likely.

Construction began in the fall and is expected to be completed within 24 months. The total project cost will be about $32 million.

[skyhigh07]

Unpopular opinion here but the Broad St line is pretty horrific. Perhaps, upgrading infrastructure and stations to actually make riding it somewhat appealing to people, which would in turn increase ridership, may be more of a priority.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Unpopular opinion here but the Broad St line is pretty horrific.

I don't think this is unpopular with anyone who actually takes it. A lot of the stations are basically falling apart.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

I don't think this is unpopular with anyone who actually takes it. A lot of the stations are basically falling apart.

Besides City Hall Station the BSL is nothing compared to the MFL. The MFL is vile, even through the heart of center city. 13th, 11th and 8th are bad.

[Broadcastthatboom]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Also the right of way is right there in the median as designed. Its not like we're tunneling under central London, underpinning 18th century buildings along the way.

Yeah this part....the Blvd is what a 12 lane highway?? The median is right there I don't know why any underground portions are even talked about....I guess it can be below grade but we aren't tunneling (unless i'm mistaken the whole point of a train route would be to reduce the amount of vehicular traffic...so having the same exact road setup but with a subway running underneath wouldn't make feasible sense at all

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Besides City Hall Station the BSL is nothing compared to the MFL. The MFL is vile, even through the heart of center city. 13th, 11th and 8th are bad.

Thanks we really needed this reminder.
Other areas of the city need help too.
Septa is constantly underfunded and all those stations can't get upgrades. Septa has a massive backlog of maintenance

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Besides City Hall Station the BSL is nothing compared to the MFL. The MFL is vile, even through the heart of center city. 13th, 11th and 8th are bad.

Funny thing about City Hall Station is while the glass entryways are beautiful, as you descend further below ground it gets grodier and grodier.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

Besides City Hall Station the BSL is nothing compared to the MFL. The MFL is vile, even through the heart of center city. 13th, 11th and 8th are bad.

Completely agree on both the BSL and MFL stations. It’s insane that we’re building a fucking $3B line to KOP when the underground state of city hall station is absolutely disgusting. I took the BSL from Lombard South to City Hall 10 or so times over the summer for an internship and my god was it horrifying once you get below ground. The trains themselves are incredibly old, city hall station is genuinely horrific, and I just can’t see how this isn’t a priority. It’s almost comical because above ground in Dilworth Park it looks really nice with the sloping glass until you get past the turnstiles. The wayfinding is also pretty terrible, although it seems like SEPTA is working on that. It took me longer than I’d care to admit to figure out how to get to the southbound BSL trains from the enterance. We’re also finally getting countdown timers so thank god for that. What I just don’t get though is the trains in Boston are light years more modern than this. I’ve never been in a single station on the T that was anything like what I’ve seen in Philadelphia. It has issues, sure, but they’re fundamentally different issues. We should not and cannot accept this. We should be pouring money into quality of life improvements to get working class professionals onto subway lines during peak hours. I stopped taking the BSL because it was easier, and much more comfortable, to just take a bus to my law firm.