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View Poll Results: The trend of the future ?
Melting Pot 18 32.73%
Pan-Enclavism 24 43.64%
Other 13 23.64%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2021, 6:48 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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The future: enclavism or the melting pot?

California’s Future of Pan-Enclavism:

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism

The initial dream of liberalism was the melting pot or one blended humanity but this seems to be where we are headed:

"These demographic trends are neither the strict segregation of the past nor the blended society that was the dream of liberalism but, rather, a quilt-like patchwork of many different enclaves. The LA Times has a diversity index for Los Angeles neighborhoods and, as with the Bay Area’s segregation map, we can see that the most diverse areas are, generally, either middle-income areas with a high concentration of new apartment construction or areas that are undergoing a transformation such as gentrification, or attracting a new demographic."
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 3:29 AM
liat91 liat91 is offline
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Regionally this seems to be working, but once it becomes more widespread and commonplace nationally, we will see if this great experiment works out.

Not everybody is a progressive and I don’t really like being part of an experiment the elites are conducting.
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  #3  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
Regionally this seems to be working, but once it becomes more widespread and commonplace nationally, we will see if this great experiment works out.

Not everybody is a progressive and I don’t really like being part of an experiment the elites are conducting.
Enclavism and fragmentation seems to be the trend as the maps in the article show rather than the liberal vision of one blended society. The left calls for racial equity based policies while the right calls for assimilation but the article makes the case that we should embrace enclavism rather than trying to resist these changes.
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 5:43 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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A little of A, a little of B, as boring as it sounds.

Everything I have seen suggests that the most modern immigrant groups to the U.S. (Latinos and Asians) are falling into the same general pattern as past immigrant groups. To broadly simplify, the first-generation immigrants never learn English very well, second-generation are bilingual but prefer English, and third generation are monolingual English speakers. Similarly, second/third generation Latinos and Asians have very high out-marriage rates (around 50%) with most of them marrying white people.

As long as there is a steady flow of new immigrants, there will continue to be ethnic neighborhoods as first-generation individuals move to where they feel most "comfortable." But the kids who grow up there (particularly if they are from non-impoverished backgrounds) are likelier to move out and/or socialize beyond their own ethnic group, and either they or their kids will ultimately assimilate.
     
     
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Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
A little of A, a little of B, as boring as it sounds.

Everything I have seen suggests that the most modern immigrant groups to the U.S. (Latinos and Asians) are falling into the same general pattern as past immigrant groups. To broadly simplify, the first-generation immigrants never learn English very well, second-generation are bilingual but prefer English, and third generation are monolingual English speakers. Similarly, second/third generation Latinos and Asians have very high out-marriage rates (around 50%) with most of them marrying white people.

As long as there is a steady flow of new immigrants, there will continue to be ethnic neighborhoods as first-generation individuals move to where they feel most "comfortable." But the kids who grow up there (particularly if they are from non-impoverished backgrounds) are likelier to move out and/or socialize beyond their own ethnic group, and either they or their kids will ultimately assimilate.

Not exactly. The difference between the various European countries is much smaller than that of Punjabis and indigenous Guatemalans. Money is the only commonality, with Europeans it was shared Cartesian values.
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Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 9:08 PM
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In LA there has been a pretty strong push to protect and preserve the Black enclave of South LA/Crenshaw Corridor. There are whole groups formed to preserving those areas as black neighborhoods, as they feel their political power and visibility is decreasing as the neighborhood becomes more multi-ethnic. I definitely feel like society is regressing in this way, and people are getting more clannish and segregated.
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 9:11 PM
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I'm voting other until I figure out what enclavism is.
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 9:17 PM
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The idea of a “melting pot” is almost dystopian. Everyone looking the same, dressing the same, dancing the same, eating the same. It might be a pretty good global fusion cuisine, but then as any restaurant that tried to do “Pan-Asian” food demonstrates, it probably wouldn’t be. The differences make life more interesting.
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  #9  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 9:43 PM
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A melting pot realized could be a double edged sword. I think ethnic enclaves are a good thing in cities and that goes for gay enclaves too. It can make the city more vibrant and interesting IMO.
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 9:50 PM
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A "melting pot" was never realistic in the first place. Humans always segregate and self-segregate based on anything that makes them different...race, ethnicity, income, political ideology, sexual orientation, etc. And let's be honest....America was never going to have enough miscegenation to ever become one homogenous race of tanned skinned people.
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2021, 11:12 PM
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I think 'melting pot' was thrown around to refer to white immigrant groups intermingling and it largely was successful; very few white Americans from a single ethnic background at this point. It fell flat when it took into account everyone mixing.
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
Not exactly. The difference between the various European countries is much smaller than that of Punjabis and indigenous Guatemalans. Money is the only commonality, with Europeans it was shared Cartesian values.

That's irrelevant, as by the 2nd or 3rd generation, the descendants of immigrants - be they Punjabi or Guatemalan or European - are still characterised by their shared North American culture moreso than that of their parents or grandparents.
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  #13  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 12:14 AM
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Yeah, I don't see any difference between newer immigrant groups and the older European-derived waves. After two generations they're basically integrated into the mainstream fabric.

One thing that always strikes me about suburban California is the "All-American" suburban areas that are like 90%+ Mexican or East Asian. NYC (and other urban centers) serve more as gateway cities, so Mexicans, Chinese, etc. tend to be more enclave-y and distinct. You go to a Mexican or Chinese neighborhood, and it feels "fresh off the boat". Extremely culturally distinct. No doubt there are areas like that in LA too. Toronto definitely has this feel too.

But you go somewhere like Whittier, CA and everyone is of Mexican descent yet it barely feels different than a white suburb. It feels all apple pie and Americana. Or go to Diamond Bar, CA and it's overwhelmingly Chinese, but still feels quintessential SoCal, out of Archie comics. Yeah, the strip malls will have more boba shops and some grannies will speak Chinese, but it's all soccer moms, megachurches and Sams Club, more like Ohio than some "exotic" ethnic enclave.

Throw in very high and increasing rates of intermarriage, and you see areas like California with (technically) overwhelmingly nonwhite futures but (in reality) more like a white-Hispanic-Asian blend that's heavily aligned with white American norms.
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 1:18 AM
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There are already a lot of people classified as "Hispanic" who are functionally white Americans, and they integrate into the white mainstream.

But the way the Census Bureau counts them - everybody with some Hispanic heritage are "minorities."

Quote:
A growing body of data reveals that individuals from mixed families look more like whites than they do like minorities — except for those who are partly black. The exception demonstrates, it should be emphasized, the persistent and severe racism that confronts Americans with visible African heritage.

This blurring of differences from whites is especially true for people from mixed Hispanic and white families. Family mixing weakens attachments to the Hispanic group, research finds. According to a recent Pew study, a growing number of such individuals no longer identify as Hispanic — much as Americans from, say, a mix of Slavic and Italian and Irish backgrounds may now mainly think of themselves as whites.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...measures-race/
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 1:21 AM
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Not so much a melting pot, but more of a tossed salad.
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 1:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liat91 View Post
Not exactly. The difference between the various European countries is much smaller than that of Punjabis and indigenous Guatemalans. Money is the only commonality, with Europeans it was shared Cartesian values.
Cartesian values?

Regardless, the data does not back you up:









This is just for Hispanics...
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 1:55 AM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
The idea of a “melting pot” is almost dystopian. Everyone looking the same, dressing the same, dancing the same, eating the same. It might be a pretty good global fusion cuisine, but then as any restaurant that tried to do “Pan-Asian” food demonstrates, it probably wouldn’t be. The differences make life more interesting.
This is a bit of an aside, but it always irks me that in science-fiction shows (like say Star Trek) there is a future where interracial marriage is completely and totally accepted, and yet there are still a ton of visibly black/white/etc. people around, and very few people who actually look interracial.

There's been ample examples across human history that in any situation where you don't either have geographic segregation (my tribe over here, your tribe over there) or social segregation (a caste system, more or less) what you end up with is everyone intermixing until there's no real "diversity" to speak of because everyone has been averaged out.
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 1:58 AM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
In LA there has been a pretty strong push to protect and preserve the Black enclave of South LA/Crenshaw Corridor. There are whole groups formed to preserving those areas as black neighborhoods, as they feel their political power and visibility is decreasing as the neighborhood becomes more multi-ethnic. I definitely feel like society is regressing in this way, and people are getting more clannish and segregated.
It's interesting looking at race/income maps of the black corridor in South LA, because the still majority-black areas are significantly higher income than the Latino areas immediately adjacent. To me this seems to suggest LA has had preferential out-migration from working-class black people, with those left behind largely middle class.
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 2:55 AM
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In Toronto, the more homogeneous enclaves are generally more middle/higher income in the newer "905" suburbs with high, while the low income outer borough/inner suburb-type areas (i.e. its equivalents to Queens and much of Los Angeles) are less white, but quite racially mixed.

On paper these 905 suburbs are as diverse as the City of Toronto, but less of a mix on the ground level. Homeownership leads to more homogeneous environments, at least for first generation immigrants pursuing the Canadian/North American dream.

That stands in contrast to the US - due mainly to the history of segregation of Black communities. Toronto's Black population is about as segregated as that of Seattle or Minneapolis though - and they're not "segregated by choice" living in enclaves like much of the Chinese, Sikh or for that matter Jewish community (who are actually Toronto's most residentially "segregated" group).
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2021, 7:55 AM
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Old enough to remember when enclavism or “mosaic” urban cities, especially when talking about LA, was looked down upon and the melting pot model was held up as being the only model for racial harmony. Now, it’s constantly challenged as being an outdated, very white narrative that didn’t account for input from ethnic minorities who celebrate rather than see problems with ethnic neighborhoods.
     
     
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