HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:12 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
E pluribus unum
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 31,262
For what it's worth, I think there's some conspiracy theories thrown around that the derailment of the Sunset Limited west of Phoenix in October 1995 was a ploy by someone, or a group of people, to get Amtrak to leave Phoenix. The people responsible for the derailment were never caught, but I can't imagine ridership was all that high to begin with?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:14 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Pretty much agree with this. I'm all for increasing capabilities for non-car travel but investing more in AMTRAK seems like a dead end unless there are some big changes coming that I don't understand. IMO the only benefit AMTRAK offers is the novelty of taking a train, and that's not really much of a benefit at all.
I don't see how a national (or multi-region) HSR project materializes without Amtrak. The options for creating one are basically a national entity (Amtrak) or delegating it to states like the interstate highway system. If they did delegate it locally, it still would require the feds to organize the infrastructure build out, especially on rail lines that cross multiple state lines.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:23 PM
The North One's Avatar
The North One The North One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Pretty much agree with this. I'm all for increasing capabilities for non-car travel but investing more in AMTRAK seems like a dead end unless there are some big changes coming that I don't understand. IMO the only benefit AMTRAK offers is the novelty of taking a train, and that's not really much of a benefit at all.

I am SO jealous of those other nations that can travel Chicago-Cincinnati distances in just a couple of hours without the cost/headaches of air travel. It's really absurd the the US is lightyears behind in this regard.
Yep, I don't see the point of any of this really, these are very minor improvements that'll take 15 years and that's if most of it actually happens. This country needs to get serious about passenger rail with HSR, otherwise it's all a joke and will never have a chance to compete with our highway system.
__________________
Spawn of questionable parentage!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:24 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
The City
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chicago region
Posts: 21,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post

I am SO jealous of those other nations that can travel Chicago-Cincinnati distances in just a couple of hours without the cost/headaches of air travel. It's really absurd the the US is lightyears behind in this regard!
I’m not jealous. I’m glad we’re not Europe. Chicago to Cincy trains would be a complete waste of resources.

You can drive. And now, with electric cars on the horizon and an electric charging network planned, it will be way more eco-friendly.

Trains should only be regional (ie metropolitan, like Chicago’s Metra), otherwise cars and planes should be enough.
__________________
Supercar Adventures is my YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4W...lUKB1w8ED5bV2Q
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:38 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I’m not jealous. I’m glad we’re not Europe. Chicago to Cincy trains would be a complete waste of resources.

You can drive. And now, with electric cars on the horizon and an electric charging network planned, it will be way more eco-friendly.

Trains should only be regional (ie metropolitan, like Chicago’s Metra), otherwise cars and planes should be enough.
Driving sucks. First I have to rent a car. Then I have to pay attention to the road the whole time. Then, you have to be able to drive... some people (like my wife) are terrified of driving (with good reason, she's an awful driver). She effectively cannot drive herself any reasonable distance.
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:43 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
No, you're talking complete nonsense. The great thing about this proposal is that no new rail has to be built at $100m per mile (or whatever HSR is supposed to cost). What Amtrak Joe understands is that the US actually already has the most comprehensive rail network in the world. It's always better to leverage existing infrastructure (if the freight companies will cooperate). Notice that most of the new routes are short hop day trips. None of this is supposed to supplant air travel.
What Amtrak Joe what ?

Anyway, I am not talking nonsense, what Pj300 is saying is absurd, the densities of cities in China and Europe on average blow American cities and towns out of the water.

That is the thing people for some reason ignore. The Built environment of American cities completely negates the advantage of a national rail network.

Most cities and towns in the USA have amenities and attractions and business spread across the region, making a train route from City Center to City center largely pointless outside of a few cities.

So yes a high speed rail line from Boston to DC stopping in the centers of 5 major cities with traditional dense (And alive) cores would make sense but between Houston, Dallas, Austin and San Antonio? It will be used as a novelty not as a legitimate mode of transportation.

It doesnt matter though none of this is being done or talked about as a serious idea to improve transportation in the USA its meant to signal to voting blocks that like the idea of HSR networks.

American politics in our age is entirely performative.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:46 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
I’m not jealous. I’m glad we’re not Europe. Chicago to Cincy trains would be a complete waste of resources.

You can drive. And now, with electric cars on the horizon and an electric charging network planned, it will be way more eco-friendly.

Trains should only be regional (ie metropolitan, like Chicago’s Metra), otherwise cars and planes should be enough.
Sure, you can drive. It also sucks to do so.

Or you could take a flight for a Chi-Cin distance. And it would really suck to go through that fucking hassle more than once per week for a relatively short distance.

Indicators are showing that younger generations have less and less interest in driving. And it has very little to do with being “green”. People would rather be on their phones/devices than driving... it’s as simple as that. Take a look at what drivers are doing while stopped at any intersection... or what drivers are doing while they are navigating city streets and interstate highways.

That is why automakers are putting more and more money into self-driving vehicles every year. And why transit startups are researching and investing in novel intracity travel modes. Significant change is coming whether you want to admit it or not. And much of it has to do with the fact that people do not want spend idle time behind the wheel of a car.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:49 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,135
Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
Chicago to Cincy trains would be a complete waste of resources.
Wrong.

Amtrak just got funding in the Covid bill to buy several hundred miles of tracks from CSX in Virginia. This includes most of the Virginia trackage used by The Cardinal. This will improve the reliability of The Cardinal in both directions but especially in the Cincinnati to Chicago direction, since the train's arrival in Cincinnati was often delayed by traffic in Virginia.

It should be added that The Cardinal travels through Oxford, OH, home to Miami University (aka "Miami of Ohio"). With multiple daily trains traveling between Cincinnati and Chicago, Miami U in remote Oxford, OH will be able to use this service as a recruiting tool. This is just one example of how expanded Amtrak service will benefit small cities and towns.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:49 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,794
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiSoxRox View Post
Madrid to Barcelona is 313 miles straight line.

Milan to Rome is 297.

Both corridors used to be air dominated (and amongst the top 10 corridors worldwide) and now are ~80% rail dominated.

While a national Shinkansen doesn't make economic sense, there's plenty of those natural high speed rail corridors in the US, beyond those with current projects:

Seattle to Portland
Boulder to Pueblo (even Albuquerque?)
Chicago to Minneapolis, St. Louis, Detroit
Chicago to and in between the Ohio Cs
St. Louis to Kansas City
Atlanta-Greenville-Charlotte-Raleigh
Philadelphia to Pittsburgh
The Empire Service as HSR
Actual HSR on the Northeast Corridor
Memphis-Nashville-Knoxville

Let's make regional flights (<1 hr) a thing of the past, aside from islands.
The U.S. relies entirely too much on flying for travel distances of 200-500 miles. New York's airspace has been at capacity for quite some time, and the logical way to alleviate that pressure is to convert a lot of those short hops between NY and Boston, or NY and D.C. into train trips.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:50 PM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,479
Despite the common sense, the US is perfect for trains. Big cities spread all over the territory, lots of metro area clusters.

It’s just a matter of investment, really. It’s amazing the economic gains a comprehensive network does for the economy in Europe, China and Japan.
__________________
London - São Paulo - Rio de Janeiro - Londrina - Frankfurt
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 6:50 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
Rail transit forms function to increase urban density, directly and indirectly.

We already have a national rail network. We’ve had it for a very long time.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:01 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,698
When a train passes in the night, all the neighborhood dogs bark. Woof woof.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:02 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Despite the common sense, the US is perfect for trains. Big cities spread all over the territory, lots of metro area clusters.

It’s just a matter of investment, really. It’s amazing the economic gains a comprehensive network does for the economy in Europe, China and Japan.
You have never been to an American city if you think this.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:03 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
He/his/him. >~<, QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Loop, Chicago
Posts: 5,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Nobody here is saying they hate trains, I think a national rail network would be awesome because trains are aesthetically cool and are associated with good cities.

Im also not a child and realize its a ridiculous idea.
right and this is not adding a national network beyond what exists already. It's adding a bunch of regional train.
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:08 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 21,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Just like in 2009?

Yawn, Trains do not make sense in 90% of the USA no matter how much I like them aesthetically.

planes are cheaper and faster outside of a few regions.
Bingo.

That map should have 4 or 5 fast regional networks, and air travel should be used between regions.

Romantic sightseeing trains, like the California Zephyr, should be spun off into a separate for-profit business (like the Orient Express) with luxury rolling stock and pricing to match the experience. But the journey is the point in that case, not getting from A to B.

Amtrak loses too much money on unviable routes to ever invest properly in the ones that make sense.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:12 PM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
i have no clue where the passenger car fiasco sits - i think they are still pulling the old carriages with the new locomotives which is depressing.
The new Venture coaches are stacking up at the Chicago yard and at Brighton Park. They had a few months of testing the coaches on each line and training the staff, they should enter service pretty soon on the Illinois and Michigan services first, then MO River Runner, and the Hiawatha after that.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:15 PM
Camelback Camelback is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 1,231
Quote:
Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
Despite the common sense, the US is perfect for trains. Big cities spread all over the territory, lots of metro area clusters.

It’s just a matter of investment, really. It’s amazing the economic gains a comprehensive network does for the economy in Europe, China and Japan.
I really enjoy the comfort of traveling by rail when and if it makes sense. The problem with trains traveling over a large distances is the time it takes to get to destinations. Air travel in a country like the US is superior and at times cheaper than rail especially once lost time is factored in.

A roundtrip ticket on Amtrak from Pittsburgh to New York will cost $360 coach and will take 9-12 hours each way.
A Phoenix to Los Angeles route (assuming service is restored to Phoenix) would take 7.5 hours due to the routing.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see a bunch of hub and spoke passenger rail systems in the large metropolitan regions. Eliminate the extremely rural routes that traverse empty spaces and redirect money saved from those poor passenger count routes to the mini hub and spokes.

The poor passenger count routes can be serviced by Greyhound to shuttle people around between spokes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:16 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 7,544
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The U.S. relies entirely too much on flying for travel distances of 200-500 miles. New York's airspace has been at capacity for quite some time, and the logical way to alleviate that pressure is to convert a lot of those short hops between NY and Boston, or NY and D.C. into train trips.
Exactly.

Flying from Pittsburgh to Philly, DC, or NYC for instance complexly sucks. It’s ridiculously expensive and considering the amount of time it takes to get to the airport and go thru all the crap that goes with getting on a plane, plus roughly 1 hour airtime, plus going through all the crap of getting off the plane and leaving the airport for your destination, it takes the same amount of time to drive the 4 hours to DC, 5 to Philly, or 6 to NYC.

But the drive sucks, or course.

A high-speed rail option would be a major improvement in efficiency and open up all sorts of commuting and commerce options, this resulting in economic development.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:18 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
The City
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chicago region
Posts: 21,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Driving sucks. First I have to rent a car. Then I have to pay attention to the road the whole time. Then, you have to be able to drive... some people (like my wife) are terrified of driving (with good reason, she's an awful driver). She effectively cannot drive herself any reasonable distance.
So a train line should be built to accommodate you? Do you realize just how minuscule of a minority people like you are amongst Americans?
__________________
Supercar Adventures is my YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4W...lUKB1w8ED5bV2Q
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2021, 7:21 PM
the urban politician the urban politician is offline
The City
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Chicago region
Posts: 21,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Wrong.

Amtrak just got funding in the Covid bill to buy several hundred miles of tracks from CSX in Virginia. This includes most of the Virginia trackage used by The Cardinal. This will improve the reliability of The Cardinal in both directions but especially in the Cincinnati to Chicago direction, since the train's arrival in Cincinnati was often delayed by traffic in Virginia.

It should be added that The Cardinal travels through Oxford, OH, home to Miami University (aka "Miami of Ohio"). With multiple daily trains traveling between Cincinnati and Chicago, Miami U in remote Oxford, OH will be able to use this service as a recruiting tool. This is just one example of how expanded Amtrak service will benefit small cities and towns.
None of this refutes the fact that it’s a complete waste of resources.

Being able to take a trip by Amtrak to Chicago is not going to recruit a single person to Miami University of Ohio. This is utter nonsense. Too many people in this forum live in an echo chamber bubble.
__________________
Supercar Adventures is my YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4W...lUKB1w8ED5bV2Q
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:23 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.