Downtown Subway

[D.J.]

If they're putting some of the MAX lines underground downtown, it seems like they might as well put all of them underground. Cheaper in the long run, and would make transfers, etc. easier.

I'd hope that if they do build a subway they leave the current tracks where they are, and run the Streetcar on them - not sure if it would be expensive to change the MAX infrastructure to allow the streetcar, but since they share the Tilikum now, I figure it can't be that hard. Streetcar lines running on the current MAX tracks from Goose Hollow to Lloyd Center, and a circulator incorporating the transit mall MAX tracks would be nice additions to streetcar coverage. MAX would be underground and fast in the central city, with the streetcar on the surface making more frequent stops - seems like a nice separation of service.

I also agree that train length could be one of the biggest benefits of a downtown subway. Not only with consolidated stations, but allowing MAX trains to be 3 or 4 cars long would significantly increase capacity across the entire system.

Originally Posted by cityscapes

If Portland were a Chinese city all the MAX lines would be underground and trains would run at less than five minute headways.

I think the subway tunnel is a great idea but I've got a few thoughts / questions:

1. It would probably have to start going underground well before the river. I'd assume a good place to insert a TBM would be somewhere around Sullivan's Gulch with the first underground station being Lloyd Center NE 11th.

2. Since the tunnel would get rid of the block size related constraints on train length I'm guessing many of the existing stations could be consolidated into larger stations.

3. Would the Yellow / Orange / Green lines stay on the transit mall?
I feel like it would be money well spent to build the tunnel in general, but tunnel spurs to bring in the these lines could make costs escalate quickly.

4. If the SW corridor line planning process didn't eliminate the tunnel under OHSU they could have ran the Green line through the downtown tunnel too, hopefully someone planning this line makes that connection. If the Green Line enters the tunnel like the rest of the lines along I-84 where would there be a tunnel exit in the middle of downtown in order to get it to the at grade segment that is yet to be determined?

Even though Portland had light rail first, I feel like we could learn a few things from Seattle's Link projects. I feel like they accepted that the terrain in the PNW makes for very inefficient at grade light rail alignments and spent the money to elevate or tunnel where needed.

Unrelated to the tunnel: The map shows a red line extension to Hillsboro. Would this be in addition to the blue line service or would the blue line terminate at Beaverton Transit Center? I've heard conflicting info on this.

[eric cantona]

Originally Posted by D.J.

If they're putting some of the MAX lines underground downtown, it seems like they might as well put all of them underground. Cheaper in the long run, and would make transfers, etc. easier.

I'd hope that if they do build a subway they leave the current tracks where they are, and run the Streetcar on them - not sure if it would be expensive to change the MAX infrastructure to allow the streetcar, but since they share the Tilikum now, I figure it can't be that hard. Streetcar lines running on the current MAX tracks from Goose Hollow to Lloyd Center, and a circulator incorporating the transit mall MAX tracks would be nice additions to streetcar coverage. MAX would be underground and fast in the central city, with the streetcar on the surface making more frequent stops - seems like a nice separation of service.

I also agree that train length could be one of the biggest benefits of a downtown subway. Not only with consolidated stations, but allowing MAX trains to be 3 or 4 cars long would significantly increase capacity across the entire system.

longer trains mean massive overhaul of most of the existing stops. 200' blocks are not necessarily limited to downtown. still could be worthwhile, but it would not be easy. or cheap.

[Pavlov's Dog]

Fantastic. They should fast track this. I am guessing that the only significant legislation that will be passed in the next 16 months will be an infrastructure bill.

Oregon has a lot of infrastructure needs considering few new roads have been built the past 40 years while the population has doubled. I imagine the subway would have to be part of a larger package including roads to get bi-partisan support though. Maybe that is the thinking behind the Westside by-pass suddenly getting attention again.

[green_man]

Several years ago I came up with a subway proposal that would put all MAX lines on a single downtown alignment going under the Willamette and roughly paralleling the Transit Mall before splitting. (Yes, this map is old enough that Providence Park is still called Jeld-Wen, and I'm unable to update it without starting from scratch as I no longer have the antique version of CorelDraw I used to create it.)

[bvpcvm]

^^^ This is roughly how I imagine it, too, but with some modifications.

I'd keep that N-S spine, but I'd branch the red/blue lines off just south of City Hall, following Columbia or Jefferson, with a "PSU North" station somewhere around 11th and Jefferson. Further west, those lines would turn slightly north and have a station at 18th and Salmon, so, consolidating all 3 Goose Hollow stops in one.

Along the N-S spine, I'd add a station at Burnside. Across the river, I'd have the yellow line continue east past Rose Quarter and then turn north along MLK, a station at MLK & Schuyler, then turn west along Russell with another station at Emanuel and a portal near Russell & Albina. For the Red/Green/Blue lines in the Lloyd District, I'd add another station near Lloyd Center. Finally, I'd retain all the existing MAX tracks and repurpose them as Streetcar lines, reducing the number of stops while we're at it.

Finally, in my ultimate, it-will-never-happen fantasy, from my 18th & Salmon station, I'd build another branch further into NW, with stations at 21st & Glisan, 23rd & Lovejoy, 24th & Thurman, and 27th & Vaughn. But, yeah, right.

[urbanlife]

Another benefit to a subway line through downtown is the current problem with the Red/Blue lines is the number of stops along the way. With a subway line, it would allow for the possibility of longer trains (though other stations outside of downtown would need to be modified for longer trains as well,) it would also be possible to still have a similar number of entry points for less stations that those lines currently have.

[Photogeric]

The way I envision it being best utilized would be to take just one line, possibly the redline, make it the only line that goes through the subway and treated as a sort of express line through downtown. That way, you could just have maybe two stops, one at Pioneer Courthouse Square and one at the Rose quarter transit center. The blueline could run on the existing tracks and serve existing stations, that way people have a choice to bypass downtown quickly if they wanted to.

[zilfondel]

I think that one of the biggest problems we have downtown is that too many lines share physical tracks, therefore running all the trains on one set would drastically reduce capacity of the MAX system.

Instead, I would separate them onto their own alignments to increase throughput. I'd also run the Yellow Line to Tigard and to Vancouver, extend the Orange line to Oregon City, convert WES to Red Line extension, and build a brand new MAX line underneath Division - from Gresham to downtown, then out Beaverton Hillsdale Highway or something like that.

[Pavlov's Dog]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

I think that one of the biggest problems we have downtown is that too many lines share physical tracks, therefore running all the trains on one set would drastically reduce capacity of the MAX system.

Instead, I would separate them onto their own alignments to increase throughput. I'd also run the Yellow Line to Tigard and to Vancouver, extend the Orange line to Oregon City, convert WES to Red Line extension, and build a brand new MAX line underneath Division - from Gresham to downtown, then out Beaverton Hillsdale Highway or something like that.

I live in Oslo where we have a fantastic metro system given the population of the city (625,000) and metro area (approx 1.1 million). As you can see from the map below all of the lines go through a single tunnel under the city center



The system is at capacity now. Line 2 runs 8 times per hour but the other lines run only 4 times per hour. The city is now looking at adding a 2nd tunnel running along a different alignment and adding stops in new neighborhoods. This is necessitated by the building of a new line to the west to the old Fornebu airport where thousands of apartments and offices are being built out. The system is envision to look like this:



So Portland's options for a downtown subway are as I see it:

1. build a single tunnel with one track in each direction:

Pros: least expensive, quickest to build
cons: limited capacity leading to low frequency. Some trains might have to take surface streets or more passengers might have to transfer

2. build a double track tunnel along a single alignment

Pros: high capacity on the currently highest ridership corridor, enables high frequency. Probably not twice as expensive as a single tunnel
Cons: expensive, could make building a 2nd tunnel on a new alignment very difficult

3. build a 2nd tunnel on a different alignment

Pros: can create additional high density areas.
Cons: high cost, more passengers will have to transfer to get to their final destination.

Note that options 1 and 3 are not mutually exclusive but the cost is clearly greatest.

Option 3 could be, for example, be under SW Morrison a stop at Pioneer Square (Broadway - Park ) connecting to the other subway line. There could be another stop at SW 1st and Morrison before it goes under the river with a stop at SW 2nd and Morrison. From there one branch could go North under MLK with a stop at Stark&Oak and another at Burnside&Couch and then connect to the Rose Quarter&Convention stop of the other line before going above ground and onto the current Yellow line alignment. A Southern branch would have stops at Hawthorne and Division and then going on the Green Line to Milwaukee. New lines, also streetcar lines, could certainly be added to that tunnel on say Division, Belmont or Powell in SE or Albina Yards (my dream site of Pioneer University), Mississippi or Williams.

West of Pioneer Square I would have a stop at 15th&Morrison and 21st&Burnside. Like bvpcvm I would then have stops at 21st&Glisan, 23rd&Lovejoy, 24th&Thurman and terminating at 27th&Vaughn.

[urbanlife]

Thanks Pavlov's Dog for reminding us why we should be jealous of Oslo.

[Pavlov's Dog]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

Thanks Pavlov's Dog for reminding us why we should be jealous of Oslo.

Oslo is certainly a great city but Portland is as well. One thing that Oslo does which Portland could emulate is to not make the discussion into transit versus roads but to find a way to please both constituencies. What Oslo did back in the 80's was to create a plan called the Oslo package. We're now on our third such package.

During the 1970s, car traffic in Oslo greatly increased, and there was a political desire to speed up investments in motorways and tunnels in the city. This would allow increased capacity, and at the same time reduce the amount of traffic in the city streets. In particular, Rådhusgata, The City Hall Square and the areas around them were congested, and hindered people from accessing the fjord. During the 1980s, the politic environment shifted towards reduced public spending. In 1982, Minister of Transport, Inger Koppernæs from the Conservative Party, promised increased government grants to local authorities that introduced toll roads.[2]
The first project was to build the Festning Tunnel, that would, along with the intersection at Vestbanen, allow The City Hall Square to become car free. In 1986, both the city council in Oslo and Akershus County Council set demands for a new toll ring scheme, requiring that the state grant extra funding equal to the toll charges: the krone for krone principle.

In 1987, Oslo and Akershus were in agreement about the placement of the eighteen toll plazas. The ring would be located within Oslo, and there was more resistance in Oslo than in Akershus. To increase support in Oslo, 20% of the funds were to go to public transport. A committee with representatives from Oslo, Akershus, the state and the Norwegian Public Roads Administration was created, while the planning became the responsibility of the Public Roads Administration.

Imagine a system in Portland where the political gridlock could be broken and much needed infrastructure investment could take place.

I would divide Metro into regions with these approximate boundaries:

1. Inner Portland. City limits West of Tabor/68th
2. East Multnomah. Multnomah County East of Tabor/68th
3. West - Beaverton/Hillsboro
4. Southwest - Tigard/Lake Oswego/West Linn/Wilsonville
5. Clackamas - Oregon City/Milwaukee/Damascus
6. Clark County

and at peak hours charge a toll to drive between the regions

tolls, along with federal funding, would go to the following proposed investments;

Roads

- Central Eastside I-5 tunnel including freeway above Brooklyn Yards and to McGlaughlin. Development of the 100 blocks freed up will help to finance.
--Upgrading McGlaughlin to limited access road with bypass of downtown Milwaukee along railroad corridor
- Westside Freeway - Hazel Dell, West Vancouver, Rivergate, powerline corridor just East of Cornelius Pass Road, Hazeldale, between Sherwood and Tualatin and meet I-5 between Tualtatin and Wilsonville
- 99W branching off from the Westside Freeway East of Sherwood and to Newberg
- Camas - Wood Village - Gresham Freeway meeting up with 26
- Hollywood tunnel of Banfield from 31st to 47th. Development of freed up land helps to finance
- Columbia Slough parkway from Parkrose to Rivergate- limited access road on Columbia/Lombard corridor with low speed limits due to heavy truck traffic.

Rail

- Central Eastside tunnel for freight/passenger rail. Includes stop at SE 2nd and Morrison to correspond with subway

- Albina Yards taken over for development including removing freight rail yards. Proceeds from development will help to finance. Includes site for Pioneer University, which will give Portland a publc/private partnership World Class research institution.

----Includes removing freight rail from Banfield corridor between MLK and Troutdale

- New rail yard at Rivergate replacing Albina

- New quad track freight railway on the lower level of the Westside bypass between Vancouver West/Rivergate/Linnton

- Double track of Columbia Slough corridor railway with full grade separation

----Existing rail bridge over Columbia River converted to passenger rail only from 6 am to 10 pm

----Includes corridor between Columbia Slough and Doane Point being used for passenger rail only

----eventual upgrade of both current rail bridges as rail traffic grows

Passenger rail:

- Both central city subways as described by me above
- I-84 express to Troutdale using current freight alignment
- Camby railway
- Hazel Dell to Downtown
- Milwaukee - Lake Oswego - Tualatin - Sherwood - Newberg - McMinnville
- Powell corridor LR
- SW corridor LR including tunnel under Pill Hill. Branches to Washington Square/Tigard-Sherwood/Tualatin-Wilsonville
- Sunset corridor LR
- North Portland corridor under Willamette Bluff along Albina Yards/UP/St. Johns
- Streetcars on Mississippi-Alberta/Williams-Vancouver/NE Broadway/Sandy/E Burnside/Belmont/Hawthorne/Division

[mhays]

Portland's fantastic narrow streets will be a hurdle, and seem likely to influence the best option. A two-track tunnel would be easy, but stations could take nearly 100% of the ROW.

I'd guess a station would be about 54' wide (2+15+10+10+15+2) including structure. It would presumably be cut-and-cover. Circulation could be at each end or on a cross street so nothing gets in the way. That means you're building the station from building to building, at very high expense for shoring and any temporary sidewalk access you want to maintain, and a slow, intricate process to do anything.

Double tracks might work well if you mean two stacked one-way stations with center platforms. However that becomes a hell of a construction challenge. Four deep bore tunnels dug at once, with two on top of two (risky?)? Make the whole thing an extremely deep cut-and-cover through Downtown (dominating the core for several years)?

Two one-way tunnels would seem much easier. Each could have two tracks with a center platform (guessing you could do 2+10+20+10+2 = 44', with circulation at the ends to clear up the middle). With only one platform, the stations could be narrower, greatly simplifying construction, including temporary sidewalks and more businesses staying open. They could be done at once, or sequentially.

[green_man]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

I think that one of the biggest problems we have downtown is that too many lines share physical tracks, therefore running all the trains on one set would drastically reduce capacity of the MAX system.

Good point. I'd support the Green/Yellow lines sharing one double-track line and Blue/Red sharing a parallel line. It could make station placement tricky if all lines share the same tunnel, but I'll leave that up to the experts.

Originally Posted by zilfondel

Instead, I would separate them onto their own alignments to increase throughput. I'd also run the Yellow Line to Tigard and to Vancouver, extend the Orange line to Oregon City, convert WES to Red Line extension, and build a brand new MAX line underneath Division - from Gresham to downtown, then out Beaverton Hillsdale Highway or something like that.

IIRC the Southwest Corridor Plan calls for the proposed Tigard/Bridgeport MAX (Purple?) to be interlined with the Green Line much as Orange/Yellow are interlined now.

Extending the Orange Line to OC seems especially prudent now that the Willamette Falls Riverwalk project could bring tourist traffic aplenty to that area - and bringing the Yellow Line to the 'Couv might be an easier concept to sell with that community's own riverfront project (in this case residential/commercial) already bearing fruit.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by Pavlov's Dog

Oslo is certainly a great city but Portland is as well. One thing that Oslo does which Portland could emulate is to not make the discussion into transit versus roads but to find a way to please both constituencies. What Oslo did back in the 80's was to create a plan called the Oslo package. We're now on our third such package.



Imagine a system in Portland where the political gridlock could be broken and much needed infrastructure investment could take place.

I would divide Metro into regions with these approximate boundaries:

1. Inner Portland. City limits West of Tabor/68th
2. East Multnomah. Multnomah County East of Tabor/68th
3. West - Beaverton/Hillsboro
4. Southwest - Tigard/Lake Oswego/West Linn/Wilsonville
5. Clackamas - Oregon City/Milwaukee/Damascus
6. Clark County

and at peak hours charge a toll to drive between the regions

tolls, along with federal funding, would go to the following proposed investments;

Roads

- Central Eastside I-5 tunnel including freeway above Brooklyn Yards and to McGlaughlin. Development of the 100 blocks freed up will help to finance.
--Upgrading McGlaughlin to limited access road with bypass of downtown Milwaukee along railroad corridor
- Westside Freeway - Hazel Dell, West Vancouver, Rivergate, powerline corridor just East of Cornelius Pass Road, Hazeldale, between Sherwood and Tualatin and meet I-5 between Tualtatin and Wilsonville
- 99W branching off from the Westside Freeway East of Sherwood and to Newberg
- Camas - Wood Village - Gresham Freeway meeting up with 26
- Hollywood tunnel of Banfield from 31st to 47th. Development of freed up land helps to finance
- Columbia Slough parkway from Parkrose to Rivergate- limited access road on Columbia/Lombard corridor with low speed limits due to heavy truck traffic.

Rail

- Central Eastside tunnel for freight/passenger rail. Includes stop at SE 2nd and Morrison to correspond with subway

- Albina Yards taken over for development including removing freight rail yards. Proceeds from development will help to finance. Includes site for Pioneer University, which will give Portland a publc/private partnership World Class research institution.

----Includes removing freight rail from Banfield corridor between MLK and Troutdale

- New rail yard at Rivergate replacing Albina

- New quad track freight railway on the lower level of the Westside bypass between Vancouver West/Rivergate/Linnton

- Double track of Columbia Slough corridor railway with full grade separation

----Existing rail bridge over Columbia River converted to passenger rail only from 6 am to 10 pm

----Includes corridor between Columbia Slough and Doane Point being used for passenger rail only

----eventual upgrade of both current rail bridges as rail traffic grows

Passenger rail:

- Both central city subways as described by me above
- I-84 express to Troutdale using current freight alignment
- Camby railway
- Hazel Dell to Downtown
- Milwaukee - Lake Oswego - Tualatin - Sherwood - Newberg - McMinnville
- Powell corridor LR
- SW corridor LR including tunnel under Pill Hill. Branches to Washington Square/Tigard-Sherwood/Tualatin-Wilsonville
- Sunset corridor LR
- North Portland corridor under Willamette Bluff along Albina Yards/UP/St. Johns
- Streetcars on Mississippi-Alberta/Williams-Vancouver/NE Broadway/Sandy/E Burnside/Belmont/Hawthorne/Division

That is quite a list of projects, I do wish Portland and Oregon could afford to do all of these things. It would make such such an amazing city and would make it easier to better connect it to the rest of Oregon in a much better planned way.

[Pavlov's Dog]

Originally Posted by mhays

Two one-way tunnels would seem much easier. Each could have two tracks with a center platform (guessing you could do 2+10+20+10+2 = 44', with circulation at the ends to clear up the middle). With only one platform, the stations could be narrower, greatly simplifying construction, including temporary sidewalks and more businesses staying open. They could be done at once, or sequentially.

Great idea. That would definitely be the best solution downtown where deep tunnel boring wouldn't work.

[maccoinnich]

Why wouldn't deep tunnel boring work downtown?

[mhays]

Even with deep-bore tunneling, the stations are probably cut-n-cover. The point of my idea was a single platform per station, allowing much easier construction that's less than the full width of the street. With two tracks capacity shouldn't be an issue.

[hat]

Interesting video on the current tunnel process in Bellevue for the East Link. I assume tunnels need to be a lot shorter, but the cost comparison with Bertha may be a lot less. Some of the tunneling downtown may need this method, called sequential excavation method (SEM).

[dubu]

thats crazy the two downtowns in seattle are connected by subway and the three downtowns in the bay area are connected by subway. wish portland would lean from seattle and the bay area. i know portland isnt trying to be a big city though. i would if it could but sadly the world doesnt work like that

[PacificNW]

Originally Posted by dubu

thats crazy the two downtowns in seattle are connected by subway and the three downtowns in the bay area are connected by subway. wish portland would lean from seattle and the bay area. i know portland isnt trying to be a big city though. i would if it could but sadly the world doesnt work like that

What two downtowns in Seattle are you referring to? If you are thinking Bellevue....the subway being constructed there is not a direct connection to Seattle. They are just placing their light rail tracks/stations underground in Downtown Bellevue... the subway/tunnel does not go under Lake Washington to Seattle.