Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Sadly I don't see that changing as long as Doug FUD is premier.

It was a deal made by the Liberals, lest we forget. So I'm not hopeful, it'll change if they're back in power either.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

There is construction going on where the chip wagon used to be. I asked one of the hydro guys what was going on. He told me it was for charging stations. Will keep an eye on it.

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

To add to this rumour, it was mentioned by workers at the Tesla supercharger.

This charger is planned to be a Tesla supercharger.

I decided to swing by and have a look yesterday after work and took a picture. I see what looks like drops for 7 charging stations which bears credence to the rumour that they will be Tesla Superchargers.

That location isn't marked on Tesla's map, but they do show a "Nepean Supercharger Coming Soon." It is shown at the corner of Hunt Club and Merivale, but it could be just a placeholder and the exact location will be moved once it opens.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It was a deal made by the Liberals, lest we forget. So I'm not hopeful, it'll change if they're back in power either.

A government that really wanted charging stations at Onroutes would find a way to get it done. EV adoption is going to really start taking off in the next few years so we'll see it happen eventually.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Fast charging isn't great for batteries though.

As I said in post #324 above, that is mostly FUD.

I'm getting more annoyed at the lack of Level 2 chargers at malls, grocery stores, etc.

I totally agree that we need more (as Tesla so aptly calls them) destination charging stations. Standard (AC Level 2) charging stations are significantly cheaper to install than DC Fast Charger (I heard in an interview that they typically cost between 150 and 200 thousand dollars to install, and sometimes even more). They could probably install 20 commercial grade standard charging stations for that price.

That would help apartment and condo dwellers like me.

While it would be helpful, even better would be a subsidy for the installation of residential charging stations. Charging overnight is best for many reasons.

And the other big hurdle in Ontario: the bullshit with OnRoutes not having Level 3 chargers. The one place Level 3 chargers are truly appropriate.

I wouldn't say it is the one place, as there are only 23 of them in all of Ontario and they are only located on Highways 400 and 401. There are already lots of DC Fast Chargers (DCFC) along those highways. While I agree they would be good locations, priority should be given to other provincial highways.

FYI, Level 3 charging is a misnomer. People (incorrectly) assumed that since there was Level 1 and Level 2 charging, DC Fast Charging must be Level 3. As the chart below shows, there were originally supposed to be 6 charging levels (3 AC and 3 DC). Many never came to fruition though.

[roger1818]

I received this email from Ivy the other day and thought I would share it:

Dear Ivy Member,

As you may know, Ivy has been offering free charging at all of our locations. We’re reaching out to let you know that paid charging on the network will begin on July 13, 2020 so be sure to add funds to your account via the Ivy app. Ivy will have two-tiered standard pricing across the network with no upfront session fees.

• $0.30/min for 50kW chargers (fast)
• $0.75/min for 100 and 150kW chargers (even faster)

Today, Ivy has 10 stations online providing drivers greater freedom to travel, with 63 more coming by the end of 2021. We look forward to continuing to help Ontarians connect to the people and places that matter most in an electric vehicle. Thank you for riding with Ivy.

You can learn more at www.ivycharge.com.

Ivy Charging Network @ivycharge

Interesting that the rate will be based on the rate of the charger, not the rate that you receive charge (or the maximum rate your vehicle can receive charge like Electrify Canada). It makes some sense to encourage people to not hog the higher rate chargers if they can't utilize that charging rate.

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I received this email from Ivy the other day and thought I would share it:



Interesting that the rate will be based on the rate of the charger, not the rate that you receive charge (or the maximum rate your vehicle can receive charge like Electrify Canada). It makes some sense to encourage people to not hog the higher rate chargers if they can't utilize that charging rate.

Per KWH + Time pricing would be nice. But, I guess it’s not allowed.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

Per KWH + Time pricing would be nice. But, I guess it’s not allowed.

California is changing their regulations to not only allow per kWh pricing, but they will be requiring it. Personally I agree that some sort of time component or per minute minimum is important to ensure effective use of the stations.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As I said in post #324 above, that is mostly FUD.

Volkswagen says otherwise for their new ID3 according to videos I've seen from those who have ordered and driven the car or had access to manuals. Sure, the definition of "bad" will vary. But I'm fairly sure there's no OEM out there that is okay with owners charging almost exclusively by fast charging.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I totally agree that we need more (as Tesla so aptly calls them) destination charging stations. Standard (AC Level 2) charging stations are significantly cheaper to install than DC Fast Charger (I heard in an interview that they typically cost between 150 and 200 thousand dollars to install, and sometimes even more). They could probably install 20 commercial grade standard charging stations for that price.

I believe a Level 2 charger is a few k. But it's all the wiring, the phone booth charging station, etc. that drives up the price. In theory, a large install at say a grocery store or mall could probably be done for less than $10k per parking spot.

Originally Posted by roger1818

While it would be helpful, even better would be a subsidy for the installation of residential charging stations. Charging overnight is best for many reasons.

The problem is that wiring up apartment and condo buildings everywhere is going to take a very, very long time. Dealing with boards is a huge pain. On the other hand, Loblaws could put up 20 Level 2 charging spots at every Loblaws in the country in a year or two if they had the economic incentive to do so.

Originally Posted by roger1818

I wouldn't say it is the one place, as there are only 23 of them in all of Ontario and they are only located on Highways 400 and 401. There are already lots of DC Fast Chargers (DCFC) along those highways. While I agree they would be good locations, priority should be given to other provincial highways.

The thing is, if you want to spur adoption you have to make EV ownership as painless as possible. No fast chargers at the OnRoutes means that you now have to change the way you travel down the 400 series highways. There's also the marketing effect of travelers regularly seeing cars charging at a service centre that promotes adoption.

Originally Posted by roger1818

FYI, Level 3 charging is a misnomer. People (incorrectly) assumed that since there was Level 1 and Level 2 charging, DC Fast Charging must be Level 3. As the chart below shows, there were originally supposed to be 6 charging levels (3 AC and 3 DC). Many never came to fruition though.

Think of it as a colloquial term for anything higher than 20 kW.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Mister F

A government that really wanted charging stations at Onroutes would find a way to get it done. EV adoption is going to really start taking off in the next few years so we'll see it happen eventually.

There's a political price for the monetary price they'd have to pay. We have no idea what the deal with HMS Host and how much it would cost to get them to install fast chargers at the OnRoutes. There's also the question of the cost of the power infrastructure to the service centres themselves. I guess those upgrades might be expensive in some cases.

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's a political price for the monetary price they'd have to pay. We have no idea what the deal with HMS Host and how much it would cost to get them to install fast chargers at the OnRoutes. There's also the question of the cost of the power infrastructure to the service centres themselves. I guess those upgrades might be expensive in some cases.

I mean if it’s not possible there. At least put signs on the highway, there is more than enough chargers along 400 series highways.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

I mean if it’s not possible there. At least put signs on the highway, there is more than enough chargers along 400 series highways.

Generally though if you have an EV, you're probably using some phone or Infotainment integrated app anyway so do you really need signs?

I do think it's possible to build out fast chargers at OnRoutes. It'd just be more than people think. I am hopeful that the next government actually does something on it. Or that Ivy manages to negotiate something with Hydro One backing. But it'll still be tens of millions of dollars to pull off.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Interesting that the rate will be based on the rate of the charger, not the rate that you receive charge (or the maximum rate your vehicle can receive charge like Electrify Canada). It makes some sense to encourage people to not hog the higher rate chargers if they can't utilize that charging rate.

The higher cost makes sense since you're also getting more juice at the higher rate chargers. My issue is that the rates are ridiculously high. The 50 kW charger rate works out to 36¢/kWh. It's 45¢/kWh for the 100 kW charger and 30¢/kWh for the 150 kW charger. So the charges are too high to be an alternative for apartment dwellers. And the majority of the network at 50 kW is slow for fast charging for a lot of customers. I really don't get their strategy.

[Tesladom]

Don't forget that you don't necessarily get 150kw throughout your charge, it starts to scale off around 50-60%. In a Tesla (same as others I suspect), the last 20% charge rate is really slow

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I see what looks like drops for 7 charging stations which bears credence to the rumour that they will be Tesla Superchargers.

7 is a weird number, usually Tesla Superchargers are set up in pairs

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Don't forget that you don't necessarily get 150kw throughout your charge, it starts to scale off around 50-60%. In a Tesla (same as others I suspect), the last 20% charge rate is really slow

Great point. That only makes the rates per kWh higher since the billing is per minute.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

7 is a weird number, usually Tesla Superchargers are set up in pairs

Aren't there spots on both sides? So 14 spots?

[Tesladom]

Perhaps new 250KW chargers are standalones... i haven't been traveling much these days. Perth one is open (or opening soon)

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Volkswagen says otherwise for their new ID3 according to videos I've seen from those who have ordered and driven the car or had access to manuals. Sure, the definition of "bad" will vary. But I'm fairly sure there's no OEM out there that is okay with owners charging almost exclusively by fast charging.

I believe Tesla don't mind. Some cars came with free Supercharging, which kind of discourages you from charging at home, where you have to pay for electricity. Despite this, vehicles with over 160,000 km on the clock still have a state of health of between 90 and 95%.

I believe a Level 2 charger is a few k. But it's all the wiring, the phone booth charging station, etc. that drives up the price. In theory, a large install at say a grocery store or mall could probably be done for less than $10k per parking spot.

I'm not sure how much an industrial grade, standard (AC level 2) charging station costs, but I know that consumer grade smart EVSAs can cost upwards of $1500 (plus installation), so I would think it would be at least double that. Installation will also likely be more expensive as it will likely be further from the panel and they will likely have to dig a trench to the charging station. As you said, the per station cost drops for installation if they install multiple stations. Regardless, I still believe the per station cost will be at least an order of magnitude cheaper to install a standard charging station than an DC Fast Charger.

The problem is that wiring up apartment and condo buildings everywhere is going to take a very, very long time. Dealing with boards is a huge pain.

If you plan is to wait until someone else does it for you, then you are right and it will be a while.

However, Ontario has had "Right to Charge" legislation since 2018 that, requires condominium corporations to accept plans from condo owners to install an EV Charging station, unless the corporation can prove that the plan is not safe. True the condo owner needs to pay for it, but they then get to own the charging station and have exclusive access to it (and can sell it with the condo). The key is knowing your rights and being prepared. The law is on your side.

Check out this article by the Condominium Authority of Ontario (scroll down to section B).

On the other hand, Loblaws could put up 20 Level 2 charging spots at every Loblaws in the country in a year or two if they had the economic incentive to do so.

Sure they could, but I'm not holding my breath. Even if they did, how many hours a week do you spend grocery shopping? The best places for standard charging stations is places where people typically park for a several hours (home, work, park and rides, hotels, parking garages, etc). Even movie theaters and shopping centers (the type where you park once and walk to multiple shops) would be more useful than grocery stores.

The thing is, if you want to spur adoption you have to make EV ownership as painless as possible. No fast chargers at the OnRoutes means that you now have to change the way you travel down the 400 series highways. There's also the marketing effect of travelers regularly seeing cars charging at a service centre that promotes adoption.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't have them, but more important than making ownership less "painless" is making it possible. Not being able to drive somewhere because there are no charging stations on that route is a higher priority than saving a couple minutes on a route that already has lots. In a perfect world we would put them along all provincial highways and at the the OnRoutes, but given the choice, I would pick the highways that don't have charging stations.

Think of it as a colloquial term for anything higher than 20 kW.

Misnomer, colloquial term; tomayto, tomahto

I figured it is never a bad thing to educate.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The higher cost makes sense since you're also getting more juice at the higher rate chargers.

Some other reasons:

1. You are also saving time (assuming your vehicle can accept the higher charging rate), which is worth something,
2. You are using infrastructure that was significantly more expensive to install and maintain (chargers above 50kW need liquid cooled cables), and
3. You are buying more expensive electricity. Hydro companies have fees for big surges and drops in demand. As a result, many locations have batteries to try and even out the demand (which adds to the infrastructure cost).

My issue is that the rates are ridiculously high. The 50 kW charger rate works out to 36¢/kWh. It's 45¢/kWh for the 100 kW charger and 30¢/kWh for the 150 kW charger. So the charges are too high to be an alternative for apartment dwellers. And the majority of the network at 50 kW is slow for fast charging for a lot of customers. I really don't get their strategy.

Their prices are in line with most other vendors. You can't assume that you can buy electricity from a third party for a similar price to what you pay at home. At home you paid for all of the infrastructure in advance. When using a charging station, the electricity is only a small part of what you are paying for. You are also paying for the infrastructure, overhead and profit.

I relate it to eating:

1. The cheapest option is to eat at home.
2. If you don't have a kitchen or it isn't convenient to go home, a value restaurant will probably cost double what it would cost to eat at home. That is like a standard public charging station.
3. The fast charger is like a fancy restaurant. They cost significantly more than it would cost to make the same meal at home.

While some people might choose to eat at a fancy restaurant every day, most won't and only do so on occasion.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

7 is a weird number, usually Tesla Superchargers are set up in pairs

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Perhaps new 250KW chargers are standalones... i haven't been traveling much these days.

The older Superchargers were in pairs as they would share a power drop. As a consequence, if someone started using the station paired with yours, your charging rate would be cut in half. The new, 3rd generation Superchargers don't share a drop to avoid this issue. It also means installing them in pairs is a thing of the past.

Perth one is open (or opening soon)

It isn't open yet according to Tesla's website. It doesn't look like it even has the correct location marked yet.

[roger1818]

The vehicle of the future is electric

By Hydro Ottawa, posted July 21, 2020 at 8:30 AM

Sales of electric vehicles (EVs) are on the rise in Canada, leaving many with questions about the impact EVs will have long-term on the environment and on the energy grid.

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So, just how “environmentally friendly” are electric vehicles?

Overall, EVs have a much lower impact on the environment than their fossil fuel-burning counterparts. But let’s break this down a bit further. It is clear that, once on the road, EVs are far more energy efficient and have very little impact on the environment as they do not produce carbon emissions. Questions about EVs tend to arise more around the carbon footprint of the electricity source, and manufacturing of EVs, in particular the batteries. Many wonder whether the environmental cost of producing EVs outweighs their benefits and studies have been conducted to answer this very question. The short answer? From fuel “Well to Wheels,” including manufacturing, EVs are better overall.

The long answer is a bit more complicated. While EVs do have a bigger environmental impact during the manufacturing process, their efficiencies once on the road not only make up for this, but do so within a very short period of time. Research shows that EVs produce approximately 25 per cent more C02 emissions compared to gasoline vehicles during their manufacturing. While that number may be higher than you might expect, it is important to remember the second part of the equation – battery electric vehicles make up for their higher manufacturing emissions within a year or so of driving. And shorter range models can offset the extra emissions within six months – and continue to outperform gasoline cars until the end of their lives.

Where does the increase in emissions come from during manufacturing? The increase is primarily a result of manufacturing batteries as this involves the use of a great deal of energy and creates some pollution. The EV batteries require the mining of very specific materials such as lithium or cobalt, though concerns are being addressed through better practices and new ways of managing the batteries for longer life, refurbishing, repurposing, and recycling. The industry is also constantly developing new battery materials and methods of production to reduce emissions and the overall impact on the environment. As mentioned, studies are clear that once a battery electric vehicle hits the road, there is no longer an impact on the environment. Conventional vehicles not only have an environmental cost during the manufacturing process, they continue to effect the environment once they hit the road, sending CO2 into the atmosphere and emitting other harmful air pollutants such as nitrogen oxides (NOx), which are considered to be carcinogenic. Conventional vehicles also impact the physical environment, leaving drips of oil, fuel and other environmentally harmful liquids on the ground.

The bottom line is that battery electric vehicles generate half the emissions of the average comparable gasoline vehicle, even when pollution from battery manufacturing is accounted for.

The other environmental consideration is how electricity is produced. This is more of a concern in countries that still use a significant amount of fossil fuels to produce electricity. In Canada, the production of electricity is much cleaner with the majority being supplied by hydro and nuclear as well as other renewable sources such as wind, biomass, solar, etc. However, even in countries where electricity is produced as a result of burning fossil fuels such as coal, the emissions from the energy used to charge an EV is less than that produced by a gasoline vehicle, meaning that EVs are still the more environmental option. This is largely due to the fact that EV motors are four times more efficient at using the energy than internal combustion engines.

Environmental impact aside, many are also concerned about the electricity grid supplying enough energy to handle the load if there is an increase in EV ownership and charging. Again, the answer has a few layers to it. At present, the grid has sufficient capacity overall for millions of electric vehicles, the problem is matching when the vehicles need to charge to when and where that capacity is available. If millions of EVs plugged in at the same time in the province, there could be a problem; if tens of vehicles plugged in at the same time in a neighbourhood, there could be a problem. However, utilities are always planning for and ensuring the grid is capable of reliably delivering service to customers. As a part of that planning, most utilities, like Hydro Ottawa, are investing in what is known as smart grid technology, which helps to manage the load and adapt to increases in consumption. This combined with the technology in EVs, which allow individual EVs to spread their demand for electricity over the course of a night, help to manage the load on the grid. With most EV owners charging their vehicles overnight (and at different times) when the overall demand on the grid is lower, the impact on the grid at the moment is minimal. If the charging can be harmonized to grid capacity, the need for more generation or a bigger electricity delivery infrastructure can be avoided.

Electric vehicles have been around for decades – in fact the first motorized road vehicles were electric – and in the past five years have rapidly become a more mainstream option. As technology continues to develop and advance the manufacturing process, EVs will only become more appealing to those looking to save money and be environmentally conscientious. The evolution of EVs will continue with more manufacturers adding various models to their offerings. All of this development can only mean that transportation is destined to become cleaner than ever before.

To learn more about the future of electric vehicles, be sure to visit our dedicated page, or check out our ThinkEnergy podcast on the barriers and opportunities of EVs, here.

https://hydroottawa.com/blog/vehicle...utm_content=EN