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  #481  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2021, 1:42 AM
JSsocal JSsocal is offline
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
The difference between upper and lower Penn levels aren't that great.

This is the main concourse level as you approach the area just beneath the bridge (the 2 stairways lead to the drive-thru)...

NJ Transit is currently undergoing design work to extend the central concourse, but eventually all of the lower level concourses will extend south to the expanded station.

The expanded layout will be as follows...
Agreed on all those- And right, from the stairs towards the main hall would really be opened up if this comes to pass.

The improvements to LIRR/NJtransit on the lower level will be nice perks but the real important change would be what happens to the upper level, and we'll probably get that far before Penn South comes to fruition. We have seen/heard very few specifics for what the full station will be.

But I still like Pau's/others' proposal to do away with the upper level altogether in the name of simplicity.

Last edited by JSsocal; Jan 17, 2021 at 2:05 AM.
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  #482  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2021, 1:56 PM
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Agreed on all those- And right, from the stairs towards the main hall would really be opened up if this comes to pass.

The improvements to LIRR/NJtransit on the lower level will be nice perks but the real important change would be what happens to the upper level, and we'll probably get that far before Penn South comes to fruition. We have seen/heard very few specifics for what the full station will be.

But I still like Pau's/others' proposal to do away with the upper level altogether in the name of simplicity.
The improvements of the upper level would involve removing the theater from MSG so they can open up the main concourse on 8th Avenue. That, along with the restructuring of the Amtrak space would be the biggest improvement on that level. But where ae they moving the theater too? That hasn't been speculated on, but there is a master plan being worked on, and likely would take years before that is complete. Meanwhile, the extension of Penn South is expected to be operational in 2028, that much we know.



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  #483  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2021, 2:22 PM
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Re the new renderings, why would they create such a tiny atrium in Penn South? Also the atrium is obviously wedged between two buildings but aren't they getting rid of the whole block?

I agree with JSsocal.
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  #484  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2021, 7:22 PM
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The improvements of the upper level would involve removing the theater from MSG so they can open up the main concourse on 8th Avenue. That, along with the restructuring of the Amtrak space would be the biggest improvement on that level. But where ae they moving the theater too? That hasn't been speculated on, but there is a master plan being worked on, and likely would take years before that is complete. Meanwhile, the extension of Penn South is expected to be operational in 2028, that much we know.
Not sure if you're still arguing against the image being of penn, but you're right these are understood parts of the redevelopment scheme. None of those things preclude or get in the way of what we see in the render. (Ideally we get both)

Further, to quote your report: "It is ESD's understanding that the removal of the Hulu Theater is one of a number of potential strategies for improving Penn Station that are being considered..."

If the Hulu theater doesn't move then the mid block expansion shown would be all the more important.

And the theater would not be relocated, the state would be buying the theater and removing it. Surely the Dolan's may hold it hostage in order to guarantee a perpetual tax exempt status for the garden.
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  #485  
Old Posted Jan 18, 2021, 1:49 AM
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Originally Posted by streetscaper View Post
Re the new renderings, why would they create such a tiny atrium in Penn South? Also the atrium is obviously wedged between two buildings but aren't they getting rid of the whole block?

I agree with JSsocal.
Yes they are. There will only be two buildings on that block.




Quote:
Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
Not sure if you're still arguing against the image being of penn, but you're right these are understood parts of the redevelopment scheme. None of those things preclude or get in the way of what we see in the render. (Ideally we get both)

Further, to quote your report: "It is ESD's understanding that the removal of the Hulu Theater is one of a number of potential strategies for improving Penn Station that are being considered..."

If the Hulu theater doesn't move then the mid block expansion shown would be all the more important.

I've already presented to you why that option wouldn't work. But lets assume you are correct. There is no indication of any planning to suggest that would be built. What we DO know is that the Expansion south will create new concourses with multiple openings, in effect a new "wing" of the station. NJ Transit is currently undergoing planning for extension of the Central Concourse (which will kick off in a couple of years), but eventually all will be extended south, below 31st Street. And yes, there is room for more improvement at Penn. If it's an opening beneath the MSG bridge you want, then stick around and wait for it. There is no indication of it, and probably won't be when all is said and done.


https://njbiz.com/nj-transit-oks-4m-...n-design-work/

NJ Transit OKs $4M contract for Penn Station design work




By: Linda Lindner
May 14, 2020


Quote:
The Central Concourse Extension is a proposed corridor that will provide additional access to Tracks 1-12. The overriding purpose of the Central Concourse Extension will be to improve passenger access to NJ Transit trains entering and leaving PSNY. It will also improve passenger connectivity within the station and to the street.

Working with Amtrak, NJ TRANSIT will define the project and advance the design to 30-percent, continuing the focus on the structural and mechanical, electrical, and plumbing (MEP) impacts, construction impacts and architectural feasibility. This phase of design is anticipated to be completed in 2023.


As far as the development goes, here's an idea of what they are planning for the open space of the plaza and surrounding streets...















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  #486  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2021, 12:55 PM
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MSG and the Gehenna-like Penn Station below it are toxic cancers that must die. Killing those noxious diseases is the first step to transforming this area from a disgusting sewer to the greatness that it warrants.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...n?srnd=premium
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  #487  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2021, 6:11 PM
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Just something else to throw into the mix, though I'm one of the people who think you don't need casinos in Manhattan...


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/21/n...n-nyc.amp.html

A Casino in Manhattan? Strapped Developers Hope So
With commercial real estate slumping, casino interests are lobbying the state to grant early approval for city-based casinos.



By Dana Rubinstein and Jesse McKinley
Jan. 21, 2021


Quote:
With New York State desperately looking for new sources of revenue, real estate developers and gambling interests are trying to revive interest in a long-shelved proposal: a casino in New York City.

... Vornado Realty Trust has pitched the idea of a casino on its expansive holdings near Herald Square, according to two people briefed on the discussions. Vornado’s neighbor, Morris Bailey, the owner of Resorts Casino Hotel in Atlantic City, has talked with colleagues about building a casino on the site of his own Herald Square property, the former McAlpin Hotel, one of those people said.

L&L Holding Company has proposed making a casino the centerpiece of a $2.5 billion tower it is building at the intersection of 47th Street and Broadway, a 46-story development that encompasses a landmark theater and includes a 669-room hotel.
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  #488  
Old Posted Jan 21, 2021, 6:59 PM
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I don't patronise casinos but I'm all for them in Manhattan. Every Times Square hotel should have one. Big $$$.
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  #489  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 3:00 PM
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The NJ Transit work is promising. They're the most strapped for space in Penn, much moreso than LIRR and Amtrak.

And they have the greatest potential for long-term traffic increases, much moreso than LIRR and Amtrak. The second tunnel will be a godsend for NJT.
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  #490  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 3:18 PM
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I support casinos in Manhattan. NY should keep the money that goes to NJ and CT.
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  #491  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 3:53 PM
BuildThemTaller BuildThemTaller is offline
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There's a casino in Queens and another in Yonkers
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  #492  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 4:15 PM
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Never understood the negativity towards Casinos. Eh... why not. Just further revenue for the city and something to add to the 1,000,000 other things to do in the city. It all has an impact on the local economy. Drawing even more tourists once everything returns to normal.
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  #493  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BuildThemTaller View Post
There's a casino in Queens and another in Yonkers
Those are "racinos", not full blown casinos.



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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Never understood the negativity towards Casinos. Eh... why not. Just further revenue for the city and something to add to the 1,000,000 other things to do in the city. It all has an impact on the local economy. Drawing even more tourists once everything returns to normal.
Some people don't like that casinos because they draw from the working class money that they really don't have, although it's a choice. I don't have a problem with it, but they aren't designed for people to win money. It's more about having a good time, but the way it works is you spend a lot of money in the process. That's why there are mixed opinions on it. But those in favor, and particularly in this case, are in favor for the economic benefits it could bring to the city and state. Manhattan is the last place in the city that needs more economic development.

So you have these two choices, put a casino in Manhattan where tourist will pour in (perhaps skipping Broadway and other places where they would spend their money) or build up one of the other boroughs where tourist would still come (though many would not) but more people would come from the outer boroughs.

If they do decide to put a casino in Manhattan, it should be over at the Hudson Yards by the Javits Center. Times Square is crowded enough (in normal times) and New Yorkers won't want to go there to gamble. Herald Square is dominated by Macy's, a more "wholesome" environment. But the site south of the Javits Center, where the governor now wants to build affordable housing, would have been a great location for a major casino. It's on the waterfront, connects to the High Line, and of course, the convention center is right there. It wouldn't really be disruptive to any neighborhoods. Ironically, when they were planning to move the convention center to Aqueduct, it was also going to be anchored by a huge casino. The catch there was the operator wanted a guarantee they would be the only casino in the city, that's why it fell through.
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  #494  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 5:51 PM
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/21/a...rain-hall.html

Moynihan Train Hall Becomes a Destination: ‘This Gives Us Hope’
Pandemic-weary visitors are finding uplift in the new station, with its soaring expanses of glass and light. “Perfect quarantine activity,” one says.






By Cara Buckley and Sean Piccoli
Jan. 21, 2021


Quote:
They whistled at it, paraded in it, posed against it, and, for a few moments, forgot themselves. They came to instill civic pride in their kids and remind themselves of all that New York could be. And they left with the satisfaction that comes when your city does something monumental, and does it right.

With its soaring expanses of glass and light, the new Moynihan Train Hall, which rises behind the colonnades of the Beaux-Arts James A. Farley Building across from Penn Station, has achieved the near impossible: It has left New Yorkers, 10 months into a harrowing pandemic, feeling transported and inspired.

On a recent weekend day, it also gave them something to do.

“Perfect quarantine activity,” said Mara Golden, who lives in Brooklyn, as she took in the sweep of the main concourse from a balcony last Saturday. Alongside her was her friend Samantha Stahl, who lives in Long Island City. Neither woman had gone out much during the pandemic, but had made an exception for the train hall, which Stahl said looked like an indoor park.

“This is our field trip,” Golden said. “Netflix, home, Moynihan, thank you.”
Quote:
Clara Lipson and her husband, John Ricker, arranged to meet up at the hall with two of their friends from the West Village, Alba Gallo and Sigrid Esser, for a special outing. As they stepped into the main hall, the friends, who are in their 60s and 70s, slowed to a stop, their chins tilting up. As they took in the great space, they murmured approvals to one another behind their masks.

Lipson said she found the hall, with its massive exposed steel trusses, architecturally beautiful, and a welcome nod to old New York at a time when stark glass slabs are rising all over town.

“It’s like an icon of the city,” she said. “Already.” Then announcements for departing trains and their destinations came booming over the broadcast system, echoing throughout the hall. Gallo shook her head.

“The announcement is always … ” Gallo began.

“So loud,” Lipson finished.

“You cannot understand a word they are saying!” Gallo said.
Quote:
Train announcements aside, the hall has been met with accolades. “It delivers on its promise, giving the city the uplifting gateway it deserves,” Michael Kimmelman, The Times’s architecture critic, wrote. A week after the opening, one Amtrak police officer was overhead calling it “the coolest place in New York right now.”

Across the hall from Lipson and her friends, Ben Manna, who is 24 and lives in Queens, was strutting back and forth. He was sporting a white hoodie from a clothing line he had just started up, as his friend John Padoginog, 25, from Long Island, took photos and video. They had spotted the hall on Instagram, and were drawn to it because they wanted to shoot Manna and his wares in a place that had clean lines and modern architecture. There were also few other public places in New York, let alone one of its transit hubs, that were as pristine. “This is pretty much the cleanest place in the city right now,” Padoginog said.
Quote:
David Levinson Wilk and Irene Schneeweis arrived from Brooklyn around midday with three kids in tow — two of them theirs, plus a friend — and the express purpose, Levinson Wilk said, of showing the youngsters great public works.

The couple’s older daughter, Luisa, is an aficionado of New York history, and wanted to see this new chapter of it for herself.

“A lot of cool things come from here,” said Luisa, who is 10. “So I thought it might be cool to see the transition of an old post office, transformed into a new nowadays train station.”

Her verdict? “I love it,” she said.
Quote:
Even in a pandemic, the hall has already become a destination for out-of-towners. Stevan Sandberg, a lawyer who lives in Rhode Island, carved out time to make a pit stop there on his drive to Washington. David Prieto, 32, a tourist from Colombia, was drawn to it after seeing photos on Instagram. Beneath “The Hive,” an art installation by Elmgreen & Dragset near an entrance on 31st Street, he took painstaking selfies of himself by carefully balancing his smartphone on the tip of his shoe. “It’s perfect, it’s beautiful, especially for a train station,” Prieto said, in Spanish.
Quote:
Some of Saturday’s visitors remembered the original, glorious Pennsylvania Station built by McKim, Mead & White, which was torn down in 1963 to make way for Madison Square Garden. Larry Rubin, 80, who paid a visit to the new hall with Sandy Davies, 79, said he passed through the old building when his family took him to Florida by train when he was a kid.

Rubin, who toted a long-lens camera to the new hall for the occasion, remembers the great heights of the old Penn Station, and the sense of “permanence and an optimism” he felt inside it. The new Moynihan Hall may not be quite as grand as what was lost, but Rubin said it was an indisputable improvement to the underground Penn Station across the street.

“To come into New York and come into this,” Rubin continued, “as opposed to coming to that warren, that basement across the street, I mean just the atmosphere — it’s so much better coming here.”

Over and over again, people said the opening of the new hall was perfectly timed.

“This gives us hope for when this period is over,” said Leeworth Robateau, 23, an artist who walks dogs for a living. “It seems like New York is preparing itself for a new world.”
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  #495  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2021, 8:48 PM
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It's funny because I've been calling the Hudson Yards Vessel "the beehive" since the first renders.
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  #496  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 7:40 AM
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Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
Those are "racinos", not full blown casinos.





Some people don't like that casinos because they draw from the working class money that they really don't have, although it's a choice. I don't have a problem with it, but they aren't designed for people to win money. It's more about having a good time, but the way it works is you spend a lot of money in the process. That's why there are mixed opinions on it. But those in favor, and particularly in this case, are in favor for the economic benefits it could bring to the city and state. Manhattan is the last place in the city that needs more economic development.

So you have these two choices, put a casino in Manhattan where tourist will pour in (perhaps skipping Broadway and other places where they would spend their money) or build up one of the other boroughs where tourist would still come (though many would not) but more people would come from the outer boroughs.

If they do decide to put a casino in Manhattan, it should be over at the Hudson Yards by the Javits Center. Times Square is crowded enough (in normal times) and New Yorkers won't want to go there to gamble. Herald Square is dominated by Macy's, a more "wholesome" environment. But the site south of the Javits Center, where the governor now wants to build affordable housing, would have been a great location for a major casino. It's on the waterfront, connects to the High Line, and of course, the convention center is right there. It wouldn't really be disruptive to any neighborhoods. Ironically, when they were planning to move the convention center to Aqueduct, it was also going to be anchored by a huge casino. The catch there was the operator wanted a guarantee they would be the only casino in the city, that's why it fell through.
actually a casino would only be a draw for ny’ers. casinos are everywhere these days. ny is or would be late in the game for that. it would be better than the racinos we do have though because of the full range of gaming offered. one grand casino could be special if done right, but any more would be diminishing returns.
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  #497  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 2:13 PM
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There's a casino in Queens and another in Yonkers
I live in Westchester and drive by the one in Yonkers on my way to Yankee Stadium. The area it's in is a slum, and I suspect that the "casino" is disgusting.

I'd like to see something like the Monte Carlo casino in NY.
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  #498  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 4:54 PM
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I live in Westchester and drive by the one in Yonkers on my way to Yankee Stadium. The area it's in is a slum, and I suspect that the "casino" is disgusting.

I'd like to see something like the Monte Carlo casino in NY.
I streetviewed that area and it looks like a totally normal american city community, why is everything a "slum" to you? im generally curious what you have against normal working class people?
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  #499  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 5:38 PM
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I streetviewed that area and it looks like a totally normal american city community, why is everything a "slum" to you? im generally curious what you have against normal working class people?
I have nothing “against” anyone. Our ideas of what constitutes a dump obviously differ, and I respect your opinion. That being said, I would have no desire to be anywhere around Yonkers Avenue.
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Last edited by JMKeynes; Jan 24, 2021 at 6:14 PM.
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  #500  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2021, 6:57 PM
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I have nothing “against” anyone. Our ideas of what constitutes a dump obviously differ, and I respect your opinion. That being said, I would have no desire to be anywhere around Yonkers Avenue.
In the interest of not starting an argument we will just have to agree to disagree.
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