Downtown Update

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by matt602

Replacing 3 large high schools with one medium sized high school. That's gonna create some serious problems when the population shift in the lower city happens.

If the population shifts, which isn't likely, they will build another school.

[bornagainbiking]

So how hard (probably hard) would it be to gut the Connaught and turn it into a High School and use City Mall which was City Hall as an annex.
Lots of room down there. Teachers and students would complain about parking.
But public transit direct to final destination.
There is Copps for hockey. Conference centre for plays and assemblies,school plays.
There is giant ball rooms for gyms. Kitchen for cafeteria. Also a big under used space on top of Jackson Sq. team up with YMCA.
City hub for busing of students.
So many resources sit empty for the majority of the week. We still have to heat the buildings.
Just putting it our there.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by bornagainbiking

So how hard (probably hard) would it be to gut the Connaught and turn it into a High School and use City Mall which was City Hall as an annex.
Lots of room down there. Teachers and students would complain about parking.
But public transit direct to final destination.
There is Copps for hockey. Conference centre for plays and assemblies,school plays.
There is giant ball rooms for gyms. Kitchen for cafeteria. Also a big under used space on top of Jackson Sq. team up with YMCA.
City hub for busing of students.
So many resources sit empty for the majority of the week. We still have to heat the buildings.
Just putting it our there.

Goodness, bornagainbiking, this is probably about the most "way out there" thing I have read on these forums. But shhhh, do not tell that "condo king" from Toronto about this --- you may give him ideas.

[flar]

Originally Posted by matt602

Replacing 3 large high schools with one medium sized high school. That's gonna create some serious problems when the population shift in the lower city happens.

It's going to create serious problems now. This is probably one of the most detrimental things the city could do to itself.

Having one high school to serve such a large area, most of it currently poor, means there is no way that middle and upper class families are going to move to the lower city. The area around the Delta is a great residential area, but would you move your family to a neighbourhood with no school? Second, if you had a choice would you send your kids to a school that has to deal with all the issues that come along with poverty? And why should kids have to travel halfway across the city to go to school?

Bigguy is right, there is never going to be a population shift. And this will be a big reason for that.

I wonder what other ways Hamilton can think of to shoot itself in the foot?

[Frankenrogers]

Originally Posted by bornagainbiking

So how hard (probably hard) would it be to gut the Connaught and turn it into a High School and use City Mall which was City Hall as an annex.
Lots of room down there. Teachers and students would complain about parking.
But public transit direct to final destination.
There is Copps for hockey. Conference centre for plays and assemblies,school plays.
There is giant ball rooms for gyms. Kitchen for cafeteria. Also a big under used space on top of Jackson Sq. team up with YMCA.
City hub for busing of students.
So many resources sit empty for the majority of the week. We still have to heat the buildings.
Just putting it our there.

Funny thing is that was pretty close to Scott Park when I went there.

We had an adjacent arena and swimming pool, there was a huge theatre that was built for top notch plays and concerts, in gym and against other schools we played football and soccer at Ivor Wynne and Brian Timmins across the street.

I've thought before about retrofitting Jackson Square or Eaton Centre as a school. I like the idea of the Connaught.

Also, how big was Parkview? When I was at Scott Park across the street (early 90s) Parkview probably only had 300-400 kids so I don't think that school is adding too many students (although I guess it is a different type of school with different types of teachers needed).

[movingtohamilton]

Retrofitting existing buildings would demand imaginative thinking from school board staff. Evidence, accumulated over time, points to bureaucratic inertia and a creativity deficit.

[movingtohamilton]

Is there any evidence that the City of Hamilton (staff and politicians) wants a population shift to the lower city? Council motions? Planning documents?

My intuition says there is none. Hope to be proved wrong.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by movingtohamilton

Is there any evidence that the City of Hamilton (staff and politicians) wants a population shift to the lower city? Council motions? Planning documents?

GRIDS' 2006 forecasts called for the slightest of upticks, netting 897 new residents over 25 years, the equivalent of seven new residents annually per ward. (In the three decades leading to that report, those same wards experienced a net loss of almost 20,000 residents, roughly 131 annually per ward.)

That muted enthusiasm was evident again a couple of years later.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by flar

It's going to create serious problems now. This is probably one of the most detrimental things the city could do to itself.

Having one high school to serve such a large area, most of it currently poor, means there is no way that middle and upper class families are going to move to the lower city. The area around the Delta is a great residential area, but would you move your family to a neighbourhood with no school? Second, if you had a choice would you send your kids to a school that has to deal with all the issues that come along with poverty? And why should kids have to travel halfway across the city to go to school?

Bigguy is right, there is never going to be a population shift. And this will be a big reason for that.

I wonder what other ways Hamilton can think of to shoot itself in the foot?

I traveled from Tisdale to Westdale for school during the later part of elementary, it wasn't that bad. Probably even easier if you have a car instead of taking the bus.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by movingtohamilton

Retrofitting existing buildings would demand imaginative thinking from school board staff. Evidence, accumulated over time, points to bureaucratic inertia and a creativity deficit.

In order to get funding to retrofit anything the board would have to get approval and money from the province. Provincial regulations are to blame not the school board. The province pays for school renovation and construction and they prefer that new schools be built because it's cheaper than renovating in most cases.

[movingtohamilton]

Thanks for the info. I still hope there can be a "nothing-ventured-nothing-gained" approach. Land acquisition and construction is cheaper than retrofitting an existing building?

[SteelTown]

The School Board will likely get top dollar for the Sir John A MacDonald property.

[durandy]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

In order to get funding to retrofit anything the board would have to get approval and money from the province. Provincial regulations are to blame not the school board. The province pays for school renovation and construction and they prefer that new schools be built because it's cheaper than renovating in most cases.

It's silly. They've been retrofitting these schools from the day they were built to keep up with building code, fire code, but at the point the population drops below capacity they absolutely must shutter them.

I bet if you simply tore down the portables at most of these schools you'd immediately reach the capacity they need.

Also I doubt renovating them is actually more expensive. I suspect it has to do with budgeting - what falls within the capital budget and what within operating.

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

In order to get funding to retrofit anything the board would have to get approval and money from the province. Provincial regulations are to blame not the school board. The province pays for school renovation and construction and they prefer that new schools be built because it's cheaper than renovating in most cases.

Yes the province's policies on schools are the real problem here. It's like they've taken a big box store approach to schools. Build. Raze. Repeat.

[durandy]

It doesn't help that you must use certain contractors and they charge $1000 to install a toilet. Triples the cost of renovation v new build.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

In order to get funding to retrofit anything the board would have to get approval and money from the province. Provincial regulations are to blame not the school board. The province pays for school renovation and construction and they prefer that new schools be built because it's cheaper than renovating in most cases.

New schools also address modern demands, such as gyms without tile floors, cafeteria/lunch space, new media space and infrastructure, energy efficient buildings, smart boards replacing blackboards, and accessibility requirements.

Have any of you been in some of the new schools? They're amazing!

[movingtohamilton]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

...netting 897 new residents over 25 years, the equivalent of seven new residents annually per ward...

This is shocking. Net new residents of 7 per ward per year? I guess my wife and I helped Ward 3 reach its target for 2012.

I'm trying to play catch-up on the population data, and have no wish to derail this thread.

[palace1]

A new school in the lower city somewhere between Westdale and Churchill would require a lot of land.

Where does the school board think they're going to be able to build this new high school?

The only spot I can think of is knocking down King George and Parkview and using the new stadium and Scott Park for greenspace? but I suspect that land would be more valuable if it is sold as parking for the stadium.

[Pearlstreet]

The school board is ludacris, they want to close the high school off Bay and Cannon (Sir John A MacDonald) only to reopen another?? This facility is modern and has A/C unlike some schools in Hamilton which also seems crazy to me. The school board is so democratic and socialist, that they so often take two steps backwards before one forward.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by Pearlstreet

The school board is so democratic and socialist, that they so often take two steps backwards before one forward.

I'm not sure what that means.

I absolutely hate the Spec's characterisation of these students as the city's most at risk. Kids are in trouble all over the city - it's just more lower-city bashing by a useless rag.

And yes, this decision will gut the lower city even further. This is what shapes growth, not some BS 'GRIDS' plan.