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  #3761  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2020, 6:39 PM
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summersm343 summersm343 is offline
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The slow dismantling of the old Trump Plaza casino in Atlantic City has begun

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ATLANTIC CITY — The process of eliminating the former Trump Plaza casino from the Atlantic City skyline will still end with the boom of an implosion sometime in 2021.

But this month, a demolition crew from Pennsylvania arrived and began the slow process of gutting the interior and taking down portions of the building itself, in preparation for the implosion, tentatively scheduled for early 2021.

The 10.5 acre property is owned by billionaire Carl Icahn.

The property, with a main tower and an East tower, sits at the center of Atlantic City’s Boardwalk, at the foot of the Atlantic City Expressway. The city hopes the property can be sold or leased and then developed, possibly as an extension of the nearby Tanger outlets.
Read more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/news/trump-...-20200818.html
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  #3762  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2020, 8:07 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Toll Brothers to build hundreds of new houses in King of Prussia

Behind a paywall:



Read more here:
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...f-prussia.html
The growth in KOP is really something else.
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  #3763  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 1:20 AM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
The slow dismantling of the old Trump Plaza casino in Atlantic City has begun



Read more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/news/trump-...-20200818.html
I loathe that the defacto mega-developer in our region is Toll.

They build such crap. It boggles my mind that people buy million dollar suburban McMansions with carpeted rooms, vinyl windows, and think that's normal. They build million dollar homes with GE appliances.

Virtually every other major city has developers who build in scale much higher quality homes. It worries me that so many towns (many of them "nice") are ceding open space to "neighborhoods" that will age so poorly as a result.

I see it all the time in the region. People pay top dollar for a Toll home, then 5 years later sell at a loss. Why? Who wants a 5 year old home with carpet and builders grade everything else for $800K. It costs a ton of money to upgrade those homes because they weren't built well in the first place.
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  #3764  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 4:48 AM
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
I loathe that the defacto mega-developer in our region is Toll.

They build such crap. It boggles my mind that people buy million dollar suburban McMansions with carpeted rooms, vinyl windows, and think that's normal. They build million dollar homes with GE appliances.

Virtually every other major city has developers who build in scale much higher quality homes. It worries me that so many towns (many of them "nice") are ceding open space to "neighborhoods" that will age so poorly as a result.

I see it all the time in the region. People pay top dollar for a Toll home, then 5 years later sell at a loss. Why? Who wants a 5 year old home with carpet and builders grade everything else for $800K. It costs a ton of money to upgrade those homes because they weren't built well in the first place.
People are catching on that Toll Brothers, Ryan Properties & other developers build gingerbread homes, but people are buying them because you can get a brand new home for 300k+ V.S. buying a old home that is 300k and has some dust to it.

However the smart people know the older homes were built to last while this homes cant even handle a thunderstorm, I.E look at Middletown De after that tropical storm came by, those good old Ryan homes whole living room wall to the master bedroom flew off.

I would hope we start holding developers more accountable for building gingerbread homes with no integrity.

It is funny to see these families move in hoardes to get this new developements with No culture, no trees, terrible road design, stripmalls and boring boring boring, the show weeds really put in light the robotic mindset that 85% of people have, Work, eat, shit, sleep, die.
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  #3765  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2020, 9:00 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
People are catching on that Toll Brothers, Ryan Properties & other developers build gingerbread homes, but people are buying them because you can get a brand new home for 300k+ V.S. buying a old home that is 300k and has some dust to it.

However the smart people know the older homes were built to last while this homes cant even handle a thunderstorm, I.E look at Middletown De after that tropical storm came by, those good old Ryan homes whole living room wall to the master bedroom flew off.

I would hope we start holding developers more accountable for building gingerbread homes with no integrity.

It is funny to see these families move in hoardes to get this new developements with No culture, no trees, terrible road design, stripmalls and boring boring boring, the show weeds really put in light the robotic mindset that 85% of people have, Work, eat, shit, sleep, die.
I get it at the $300K price point. But I absolutely don't get it at the $700k, $800K, $900K price point. If I see one more house come on the market for $850K in Garnet Valley or Chester Springs or Collegeville or Phoenixville with carpeting in every room except the hallway and dining room I'm gonna vomit.

So what. Your house is big. Literally nothing in the house is quality. You bought a $800K suburban box and you have $99 windows in the house and not even a sub-zero.

Philly has "custom" home builders like Pohlig and Bentley that build with the sort of finishes I'm talking about...but they tend to be very very big homes on very big lots. There is a huge market, for sure that is not being filled, for homes on smaller infill suburban lots with the same quality of finishes, closer to actual things you want to live near (like main streets and trees).

Every city of note (many of them of no note at all) have these sorts of builders in spades. Charlotte, Chicago, Atlanta, Nashville, Columbus, North Jersey, etc.

We have none that I know of. In fact, in many metros, these builders keep an inventory of teardowns on lots in good towns that they sell and develop custom homes for at will.

There are close in suburbs all over Philly with quality but dated housing that could be upgraded with this model. Have you ever been to DuPage County Illinois? Literally every single close in suburb has been replaced using this model. Elmhurst, Western Springs, La Grange, Glen Ellen. Do a google street view on virtually any block in Elmhurst. You're going to see beautiful brand new infill homes cheek to jowl with anonymous 1950 brick ranchers and capes. Elmhurst was never fantastically wealthy. It was a middle income suburb with a nice main street and good school on transit. How many suburbs can we describe in Philly with the same assets? 20? 30?

For sure, you could buy a $300K home in Haverford or Springfield or Abington or Plymouth or Whitemarsh and literally knock it down and replace it with a more relevant home with moden sensibility and top notch finishes that would sell for $700-$800K. The market is there. We don't have the product, so people can't even conceive of it.

Last edited by 3rd&Brown; Aug 20, 2020 at 9:11 PM.
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  #3766  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 1:35 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
I loathe that the defacto mega-developer in our region is Toll.

They build such crap. It boggles my mind that people buy million dollar suburban McMansions with carpeted rooms, vinyl windows, and think that's normal. They build million dollar homes with GE appliances.

Virtually every other major city has developers who build in scale much higher quality homes. It worries me that so many towns (many of them "nice") are ceding open space to "neighborhoods" that will age so poorly as a result.

I see it all the time in the region. People pay top dollar for a Toll home, then 5 years later sell at a loss. Why? Who wants a 5 year old home with carpet and builders grade everything else for $800K. It costs a ton of money to upgrade those homes because they weren't built well in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
I get it at the $300K price point. But I absolutely don't get it at the $700k, $800K, $900K price point. If I see one more house come on the market for $850K in Garnet Valley or Chester Springs or Collegeville or Phoenixville with carpeting in every room except the hallway and dining room I'm gonna vomit.

So what. Your house is big. Literally nothing in the house is quality. You bought a $800K suburban box and you have $99 windows in the house and not even a sub-zero.

Philly has "custom" home builders like Pohlig and Bentley that build with the sort of finishes I'm talking about...but they tend to be very very big homes on very big lots. There is a huge market, for sure that is not being filled, for homes on smaller infill suburban lots with the same quality of finishes, closer to actual things you want to live near (like main streets and trees).

Every city of note (many of them of no note at all) have these sorts of builders in spades. Charlotte, Chicago, Atlanta, Nashville, Columbus, North Jersey, etc.

We have none that I know of. In fact, in many metros, these builders keep an inventory of teardowns on lots in good towns that they sell and develop custom homes for at will.

There are close in suburbs all over Philly with quality but dated housing that could be upgraded with this model. Have you ever been to DuPage County Illinois? Literally every single close in suburb has been replaced using this model. Elmhurst, Western Springs, La Grange, Glen Ellen. Do a google street view on virtually any block in Elmhurst. You're going to see beautiful brand new infill homes cheek to jowl with anonymous 1950 brick ranchers and capes. Elmhurst was never fantastically wealthy. It was a middle income suburb with a nice main street and good school on transit. How many suburbs can we describe in Philly with the same assets? 20? 30?

For sure, you could buy a $300K home in Haverford or Springfield or Abington or Plymouth or Whitemarsh and literally knock it down and replace it with a more relevant home with moden sensibility and top notch finishes that would sell for $700-$800K. The market is there. We don't have the product, so people can't even conceive of it.
New member here I've been a long time member of City Data (cpomp). I read skyscraper page all the time, with no account until now. But your above posts made me want to comment/clarify a few things.

First, I totally agree that Toll is generally crap, and not worth anywhere near their prices, but that is a product of price by demand/location, etc. and until the past few years (the age of hyperconnectitvity and social media), the issues surrounding Toll Brothers construction was not obvious to most home buyers, therefore they should not be shamed for buying a Toll house. Also, the KoP Town Center does feature a lot of Toll townhouses/apartments, but that development is still one of the best town centers I have come across, it is starting to feel like a little town, a shame its surrounded bu highways, so it can't expand beyond its confines.

Anyways, I will address your post in points, easier to follow (and how I usually do it in City Data).

1. Toll Brothers is the "de facto" builder in many regions, they are the nations largest home builders, along with Ryan, NVR, Pulte, etc. Every major metro area has their fair share of this, by no means is it a Philadelphia problem.

2. If anything, the Philadelphia region is one of the least affected by the mass construction of subpar mcmansions. The Philadelphia region is very old with dozens of housing styles/types from hundreds of years of development.

Many other American cities including - Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Tampa, Orlando, Charlotte, etc. were largely developed in sprawl fashion over the last 20-40 years. Those cities are chuck full of developers looking to construct a 400 house community using the cheapest materials possible, selling at high prices. Every home looks the same, all stuffed behind a brick wall or gate. Dallas is the worst offender.

The Philadelphia suburbs have a lot of open/protected land, one of the few benefits of extreme NIMBYism is how hard people in this region fight to keep open space, or at least limit the size of new communities. You certainly will not find that practice in any of the other major metros you described, except New York and Boston. Plus Phoenixville, Collegeville, etc. are 30 miles from Philadelphia, that is like comparing Alpharetta to Atlanta, the sprawl in communities far from the city core is a way of life/development for every region. At that point, it comes down to preferred housing style, not which houses are superior. (Personally, I would take the SEPA style of suburban homes over any other metro. I love the stone colonial/farmhouse design).

3. Your example of Elmhurst, Ill is a unique and selective example that is not representative of the Greater Chicago area. Plus, I can't think of 30 suburbs in any major metro that follow the model you described. Maybe LA, but that is not a model to follow. But, here is a nice example of that model in Haverford...

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9921...7i16384!8i8192

Also, The Philadelphia suburbs are among the most lush/tree canopied in the nation, far more than metro Chicago. In many instances it is harder to spot teardowns or one off new construction homes of higher quality. But I can think of a few dozen examples in communities not on the Main Line where a small cape on a large plot was demo'd for a new higher quality large homes.

4. From my experience, the quality and variety of homes in metro Philadelphia are not surpassed by most regions for several reasons.
a. The age/variety of homes and communities developed over centuries.
b. The more stringent development guidelines in many SEPA municipalities, that are virtually non-existent in many other large metros (Houston,
Dallas, Tampa, etc.)
c. The varied use of materials, especially stone. The use of stucco is now largely banned/not used on new construction in SEPA, not the case for many other
regions.

5. I am very familiar with development/housing in many regions, and I am not aware of custom/quality builders "in spades", when compared to the Philadelphia region, which has its fair share of small/custom builders that focus tear-downs or small communities (1-5 homes).

6. Regarding Pohlig and Bentley, yes, they are home builders on the extreme upper end of the market, mostly around the Main Line and few other wealthy enclaves, and they are among the best I have seen (nationally). Bentley has extended their reach into a more upper middle class market, which is a smart move.

7. Lastly, I was coincidentally in Devon/Wayne this week for work, and I drove around for 2 hours after my meetings, and noticed a major uptick in renovations or tear downs along the Main Line. The single tear down market is not common in typical sprawl communities - Garnet Valley, (unless its for a subdivision), whereas near the regions walk-able boroughs, especially the affluent ones, its a more common practice. I can think of a few recent examples around downtown Media, (my hometown).
And one off tear-downs in a town like Springfield are for the most part not lucrative, hence why they are uncommon, but again, that is not specific the Philadelphia area. I would have to do some digging into municipality building records to get a better breakdown of the region comparing it say Chicago.

Anyways, to summarize my long winded post, yes Toll is meh, but beyond that, the Philadelphia region is not at a home building disadvantage compared to any other major metro areas, accept for the general push-back of denser development in our regions walk-able towns (Ardmore, Media, etc.) but that is a different issue.

(my background is in construction/development/architecture/currently a forensics engineer working on various projects plagued with schedule/cost/design issues).

Last edited by PHLtoNYC; Aug 21, 2020 at 1:49 PM.
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  #3767  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 3:23 PM
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  #3768  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 3:52 PM
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
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Welcome PHLTONYC great to have you here!

Out of all the developers in the area Toll brothers and BPG seem to be the most high quality corporate builders.

have any of yall see how the Ryan homes are built? my god they used the cheapest shit they can find, atleast tollbrothers uses stone and tries to make the builds look good.

However I do agree 3rd&brown the 800k houses with carpet and no speciality to them is pretty annoying, im shocked any one is paying that much for that, nowadays I just see developments in a race to see who can get it done the fastest, it really makes me wonder how long it took in the 1900's when they were laying rowhomes brick by brick and putting crown molding and fixtures inside and outside of thr homes, I would deadass take a 1900's brand new Philly townhome townhome over the box bullshit they make today with the "Woodfloors and BAY WINDOWS"
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  #3769  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 4:05 PM
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EastSideHBG EastSideHBG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
However the smart people know the older homes were built to last while this homes cant even handle a thunderstorm, I.E look at Middletown De after that tropical storm came by, those good old Ryan homes whole living room wall to the master bedroom flew off.
Yeah this tends to happen in a tornado with peak winds of 105 mph that spanned for a record breaking 29.2 miles and that was not just a thunderstorm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
New member here I've been a long time member of City Data (cpomp). I read skyscraper page all the time, with no account until now. But your above posts made me want to comment/clarify a few things.

First, I totally agree that Toll is generally crap, and not worth anywhere near their prices, but that is a product of price by demand/location, etc. and until the past few years (the age of hyperconnectitvity and social media), the issues surrounding Toll Brothers construction was not obvious to most home buyers, therefore they should not be shamed for buying a Toll house. Also, the KoP Town Center does feature a lot of Toll townhouses/apartments, but that development is still one of the best town centers I have come across, it is starting to feel like a little town, a shame its surrounded bu highways, so it can't expand beyond its confines.

Anyways, I will address your post in points, easier to follow (and how I usually do it in City Data).

1. Toll Brothers is the "de facto" builder in many regions, they are the nations largest home builders, along with Ryan, NVR, Pulte, etc. Every major metro area has their fair share of this, by no means is it a Philadelphia problem.

2. If anything, the Philadelphia region is one of the least affected by the mass construction of subpar mcmansions. The Philadelphia region is very old with dozens of housing styles/types from hundreds of years of development.

Many other American cities including - Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Tampa, Orlando, Charlotte, etc. were largely developed in sprawl fashion over the last 20-40 years. Those cities are chuck full of developers looking to construct a 400 house community using the cheapest materials possible, selling at high prices. Every home looks the same, all stuffed behind a brick wall or gate. Dallas is the worst offender.

The Philadelphia suburbs have a lot of open/protected land, one of the few benefits of extreme NIMBYism is how hard people in this region fight to keep open space, or at least limit the size of new communities. You certainly will not find that practice in any of the other major metros you described, except New York and Boston. Plus Phoenixville, Collegeville, etc. are 30 miles from Philadelphia, that is like comparing Alpharetta to Atlanta, the sprawl in communities far from the city core is a way of life/development for every region. At that point, it comes down to preferred housing style, not which houses are superior. (Personally, I would take the SEPA style of suburban homes over any other metro. I love the stone colonial/farmhouse design).

3. Your example of Elmhurst, Ill is a unique and selective example that is not representative of the Greater Chicago area. Plus, I can't think of 30 suburbs in any major metro that follow the model you described. Maybe LA, but that is not a model to follow. But, here is a nice example of that model in Haverford...

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9921...7i16384!8i8192

Also, The Philadelphia suburbs are among the most lush/tree canopied in the nation, far more than metro Chicago. In many instances it is harder to spot teardowns or one off new construction homes of higher quality. But I can think of a few dozen examples in communities not on the Main Line where a small cape on a large plot was demo'd for a new higher quality large homes.

4. From my experience, the quality and variety of homes in metro Philadelphia are not surpassed by most regions for several reasons.
a. The age/variety of homes and communities developed over centuries.
b. The more stringent development guidelines in many SEPA municipalities, that are virtually non-existent in many other large metros (Houston,
Dallas, Tampa, etc.)
c. The varied use of materials, especially stone. The use of stucco is now largely banned/not used on new construction in SEPA, not the case for many other
regions.

5. I am very familiar with development/housing in many regions, and I am not aware of custom/quality builders "in spades", when compared to the Philadelphia region, which has its fair share of small/custom builders that focus tear-downs or small communities (1-5 homes).

6. Regarding Pohlig and Bentley, yes, they are home builders on the extreme upper end of the market, mostly around the Main Line and few other wealthy enclaves, and they are among the best I have seen (nationally). Bentley has extended their reach into a more upper middle class market, which is a smart move.

7. Lastly, I was coincidentally in Devon/Wayne this week for work, and I drove around for 2 hours after my meetings, and noticed a major uptick in renovations or tear downs along the Main Line. The single tear down market is not common in typical sprawl communities - Garnet Valley, (unless its for a subdivision), whereas near the regions walk-able boroughs, especially the affluent ones, its a more common practice. I can think of a few recent examples around downtown Media, (my hometown).
And one off tear-downs in a town like Springfield are for the most part not lucrative, hence why they are uncommon, but again, that is not specific the Philadelphia area. I would have to do some digging into municipality building records to get a better breakdown of the region comparing it say Chicago.

Anyways, to summarize my long winded post, yes Toll is meh, but beyond that, the Philadelphia region is not at a home building disadvantage compared to any other major metro areas, accept for the general push-back of denser development in our regions walk-able towns (Ardmore, Media, etc.) but that is a different issue.

(my background is in construction/development/architecture/currently a forensics engineer working on various projects plagued with schedule/cost/design issues).
Welcome aboard, great post!
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  #3770  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 4:39 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
And one off tear-downs in a town like Springfield are for the most part not lucrative, hence why they are uncommon, but again, that is not specific the Philadelphia area. I would have to do some digging into municipality building records to get a better breakdown of the region comparing it say Chicago.

Anyways, to summarize my long winded post, yes Toll is meh, but beyond that, the Philadelphia region is not at a home building disadvantage compared to any other major metro areas, accept for the general push-back of denser development in our regions walk-able towns (Ardmore, Media, etc.) but that is a different issue.

(my background is in construction/development/architecture/currently a forensics engineer working on various projects plagued with schedule/cost/design issues).
I'm aware of all the nuance you speak of and I still disagree. It is very very very common in close in suburbs in other regions for tear downs to be a regular thing, not just the most affluent towns. Do you think Upper Arlington OH is rich? It's all prewar bungalows that are coming down to give way to bigger well constructed homes on small lots.

Using any example on the main line is exactly what I'm not talking about. I know this occurs regularly on the Main Line. My point is, the raw assets of MANY towns in the Philadelphia region in other regions would be enough alone to initiate this sort of trend. For some reason, here...it's never taken hold.

Our public schools, in many towns, are top notch. I explicitly use Springfield as an example because the school district has adopted a new model of learning and it has skyrocketed to the top of state rankings in maybe 7-8 years. It used to be literally middle of the pack, in terms of scores and rankings, and now it is literally one of the top ten high schools in Pennsylvania. It is on transit, and has well manicured tree lined streets.

If $750K homes existed on small lots in Springfield with top of the line finishes. Walkable to the train. They would sell. Ditto Nether Providence. You don't think people would pay $800K for a home within walking distance of the Wallingford or Nether Providence train stations? W-S schools are better than anything out in far flung Chester County.

There's plenty of post-war dreck in Philly's suburbs that could use an upgrade. It just not in our narrative to think it's even possible.

Toll already has a new small lot program for single family homes (ex: Franklin Station). These are single family homes on .15-.25 acre lots that are selling for $700K+ like they're going out of style (the first phase at Franklin Station basically sold out immediately). My point is, this idea that you need a half acre or acre of land to build an $800K home is passe. There are .2-.25 acre lots riddle all over these inner ring suburbs that are in prime locations with far more natural assets than any new construction neighborhood.
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  #3771  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2020, 4:41 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Also. The open space initiatives you speak of in Philadelphia would lead one to believe it should push development inward...and not continue to sprawl outward.

If I had a couple of million bucks in liquidity I'd start doing just what I said to demonstrate it could work here.
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  #3772  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 4:05 AM
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
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Ayo, A project in Wilmington is happening quietly right now.

https://www.wilmingtonde.gov/home/showdocument?id=8418

I noticed a while back there was a gate with a warp around it by the NE bridge that says "Wilmington public water works"

I assume they have to do some fixing before they start the new 12st roadway and development, great plans my only gripe is I hope they are making the residential buildings atleast 5 stories high or like the Riverfront, this will be a new riverfront so it needs to look good especially by the River.

This will change the area for the better, I cant wait.

Also the new watershed park by southbridge has been underconstruction for a couple months now, cant wait to see that finished.
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  #3773  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 2:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
Ayo, A project in Wilmington is happening quietly right now.

https://www.wilmingtonde.gov/home/showdocument?id=8418

I noticed a while back there was a gate with a warp around it by the NE bridge that says "Wilmington public water works"

I assume they have to do some fixing before they start the new 12st roadway and development, great plans my only gripe is I hope they are making the residential buildings atleast 5 stories high or like the Riverfront, this will be a new riverfront so it needs to look good especially by the River.

This will change the area for the better, I cant wait.

Also the new watershed park by southbridge has been underconstruction for a couple months now, cant wait to see that finished.
Wow! That looks great! That area is in dire need of redevelopment and this looks like it could drastically change the area for the better! Hopefully the crime can go down too!

Also, how's everyone been? It's been a while since I've been on here! Hope everyone is safe and well!
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  #3774  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2020, 11:19 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
Welcome PHLTONYC great to have you here!

Out of all the developers in the area Toll brothers and BPG seem to be the most high quality corporate builders.

have any of yall see how the Ryan homes are built? my god they used the cheapest shit they can find, atleast tollbrothers uses stone and tries to make the builds look good.

However I do agree 3rd&brown the 800k houses with carpet and no speciality to them is pretty annoying, im shocked any one is paying that much for that, nowadays I just see developments in a race to see who can get it done the fastest, it really makes me wonder how long it took in the 1900's when they were laying rowhomes brick by brick and putting crown molding and fixtures inside and outside of thr homes, I would deadass take a 1900's brand new Philly townhome townhome over the box bullshit they make today with the "Woodfloors and BAY WINDOWS"
Thanks, glad I can start contributing now

And to your last paragraph, I totally agree, I was more addressing the points that cheaply built sprawl is a Philadelphia specific problem, when its not, and if anything Philadelphia is one of the least affected metros.

And the recent explosion of rowhome construction is worse quality than their suburban counterparts. In Fishtown for example, I toured a few construction sites, most of these developers might as well build tree houses, placing single sheets of plywood on the exterior of homes, then selling them for $500k+. They will suffer from rot within a decade. In Philadelphia, you either buy old/renovated, a condo, or one of the more custom townhomes generally built in CC, like the Novo homes on Wood Street, (but price comes with that).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
I'm aware of all the nuance you speak of and I still disagree. It is very very very common in close in suburbs in other regions for tear downs to be a regular thing, not just the most affluent towns. Do you think Upper Arlington OH is rich? It's all prewar bungalows that are coming down to give way to bigger well constructed homes on small lots.

Using any example on the main line is exactly what I'm not talking about. I know this occurs regularly on the Main Line. My point is, the raw assets of MANY towns in the Philadelphia region in other regions would be enough alone to initiate this sort of trend. For some reason, here...it's never taken hold.

Our public schools, in many towns, are top notch. I explicitly use Springfield as an example because the school district has adopted a new model of learning and it has skyrocketed to the top of state rankings in maybe 7-8 years. It used to be literally middle of the pack, in terms of scores and rankings, and now it is literally one of the top ten high schools in Pennsylvania. It is on transit, and has well manicured tree lined streets.

If $750K homes existed on small lots in Springfield with top of the line finishes. Walkable to the train. They would sell. Ditto Nether Providence. You don't think people would pay $800K for a home within walking distance of the Wallingford or Nether Providence train stations? W-S schools are better than anything out in far flung Chester County.

There's plenty of post-war dreck in Philly's suburbs that could use an upgrade. It just not in our narrative to think it's even possible.

Toll already has a new small lot program for single family homes (ex: Franklin Station). These are single family homes on .15-.25 acre lots that are selling for $700K+ like they're going out of style (the first phase at Franklin Station basically sold out immediately). My point is, this idea that you need a half acre or acre of land to build an $800K home is passe. There are .2-.25 acre lots riddle all over these inner ring suburbs that are in prime locations with far more natural assets than any new construction neighborhood.
Well, most of the close in suburbs are either very affluent (The Main Line), post-war suburbia (Lower Bucks), or older/grit areas (Southeastern Delco). We discussed, the Main Line, which does indeed have a lot of renovations/infill/teardowns, the older/grit burbs lack investment due to lower ranking schools, with the exception of Lansdowne which is on an upswing. No new housing, but reinvestment in older homes and businesses. And Lower Bucks is largely the Levitt era which is an average with a mix of unkept homes, updated homes and expanded homes.

Not sure what other areas you are referring to?

The next set of closer burbs are Media/Swarthmore, which are generally well-kept older homes, and a lot of new construction just outside Media borough, townhomes, and singles, then you expand out into well-kept suburbia (Middletown, Upper Providence, Edgemont, Newtown Square, etc.). The same can be said for Bucks and Montgomery Counties. Your point could certainly apply in areas like Norristown, Coatsville, and a few other places, but maybe this phenomen is less common in the Philadelphia region due to the high amount of well-kept suburbs.

Once you reach Garnet Valley, Thornbury, outside of West Chester, etc. its more suburban sprawl, but as I said before, that is the same for every major metro, and the sprawl I see in those areas looks a lot better than what I see outside of Atlanta, Dallas, Charlotte, etc.

Related to Springfield, most of the homes are well-kept, so should teardowns be a common thing? Same can be said for Wallingford area, which does have homes near Wallingford/Rose Valley Station selling in the price range you mentioned.

Franklin Station is a Toll development I like, especially if the Wawa Septa Station finishes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Also. The open space initiatives you speak of in Philadelphia would lead one to believe it should push development inward...and not continue to sprawl outward.

If I had a couple of million bucks in liquidity I'd start doing just what I said to demonstrate it could work here.
Historically, it did not, unfortunately.
But the tide seems to have shifted a bit over the past decade with more impressive, dense projects in Media, West Chester, Ardmore, Conshohocken, etc. I hope that continues, and I wish townships would view this type of development in a more progressive manner offering incentives to develop denser suburban housing in walk-able/transit friendly centers. But the push-back remains, it took Dranoff a decade to finally develop his project in Ardmore, which is ridiculous...

And there will always be a level of sprawl in the further out burbs, Philadelphia is a very large region with a lot of top employers in Chester/Montgomery Counties, so sprawl is inevitable. I do give credit to Upper Merion for its valiant effort to somewhat develop the commercial center of KoP into a live, work, play environment, rather than cul de sacs off highways.

And to your last point, I would too.
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  #3775  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2020, 4:37 AM
TonyTone TonyTone is offline
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Check out the 2028 Plan for Wilmington

I have to say they got there shit together, only thing that is not good is they only perdict an 8% increase for population by 2040.

I can see Wilmington being at 150,000 by that time if they do everything thats in this link, its beautiful to see.

https://www.wilmingtonde.gov/home/showdocument?id=8490
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  #3776  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2020, 1:15 PM
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Looks Great! Hopefully this plan all works out!

I would love to see Wilmington turn itself around!
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  #3777  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 1:50 PM
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600-Plus Apartments At Oxford Valley Mall Greenlit By Supervisors

Big project coming to the OV Mall:

http://levittownnow.com/2020/08/25/6...y-supervisors/

It's going to be built in the old Boscov's parking lot, they'll be demolishing part of the old store to add open space and clear the way for possible future retail development.

Pretty excited about this, it's exactly what the area needs.


Overview:



Rendering:

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  #3778  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 3:44 PM
3rd&Brown 3rd&Brown is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
Well, most of the close in suburbs are either very affluent (The Main Line), post-war suburbia (Lower Bucks), or older/grit areas (Southeastern Delco). We discussed, the Main Line, which does indeed have a lot of renovations/infill/teardowns, the older/grit burbs lack investment due to lower ranking schools, with the exception of Lansdowne which is on an upswing. No new housing, but reinvestment in older homes and businesses. And Lower Bucks is largely the Levitt era which is an average with a mix of unkept homes, updated homes and expanded homes.

Not sure what other areas you are referring to?
Montgomery County:
Abington (Glenside, Rydal, Huntingdon Valley)
Lower Moreland (Hungtingdon Valley)
Springfield Twp (Erdenheim, Oreland, Glenside)
Whitemarsh (everywhere)
Plymouth Township
Upper Merion

Delaware County:
Haverford Township
Newtown Township (old bits of Newtown Square)
Marple Township
Nether Providence (Wallingford)
Middletown Township (closer to Media)
Springfield
Rutledge (W-S Schools)

Bucks County
Fewer opportunities, but the Pennsbury portion of Levittown stands out as a candidate for an upgrade in housing stock (I believe it's Falls Township, specifically)

These are all "older" suburbs you describe but have excellent, not underperforming schools. There is already a high low aspect to most of them (Abington has $250K post war cape cods and $1M plus estates) so the market has shown the price points are attainable. The same thing I said about Abington is true of every township on here with the exception of Falls. In nearly all of them, you can find million dollar homes and sub-$300K tract homes. In the other regions I mentioned, those sub $300K tract homes would be coming down and replaced by custom built infill homes.

In short. Exactly what I stated before. Older suburbs, great schools, good transit connectivity.
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  #3779  
Old Posted Aug 25, 2020, 5:31 PM
iamrobk iamrobk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Montgomery County:
Abington (Glenside, Rydal, Huntingdon Valley)
Lower Moreland (Hungtingdon Valley)
Springfield Twp (Erdenheim, Oreland, Glenside)
Whitemarsh (everywhere)
Plymouth Township
Upper Merion

Delaware County:
Haverford Township
Newtown Township (old bits of Newtown Square)
Marple Township
Nether Providence (Wallingford)
Middletown Township (closer to Media)
Springfield
Rutledge (W-S Schools)

Bucks County
Fewer opportunities, but the Pennsbury portion of Levittown stands out as a candidate for an upgrade in housing stock (I believe it's Falls Township, specifically)

These are all "older" suburbs you describe but have excellent, not underperforming schools. There is already a high low aspect to most of them (Abington has $250K post war cape cods and $1M plus estates) so the market has shown the price points are attainable. The same thing I said about Abington is true of every township on here with the exception of Falls. In nearly all of them, you can find million dollar homes and sub-$300K tract homes. In the other regions I mentioned, those sub $300K tract homes would be coming down and replaced by custom built infill homes.

In short. Exactly what I stated before. Older suburbs, great schools, good transit connectivity.
People always forget about the eastern half of Montco (which is basically all of the towns you listed) since the focus is entirely on the Main Line, Bucks County, and Delco (which is, funnily enough, exactly the regions PHLtoNYC pointed out). The value you get for housing there is miles better than the Main Line, though the area is similarly overlooked by a lot of businesses so there isn't a ton close-by and you end up needing to go to places like KOP a lot anyway. Though I have no personal desire to ever go to one, I think Soul Cycle is a good example of what I mean - they only have two locations in the region, one in Center City and one in Ardmore. When you live in eastern Montco, you tend to notice a lot of things like that: Everything is located in some combination of Center City, the Main Line, and/or South Jersey. Also, as someone who grew up there, I have little desire to return to the area because frankly I think it's somewhat boring. (If/when I move to the suburbs, it'll almost certainly be the Main Line.) Of course, if you have kids, how "boring" I think it is may not be such a concern.

That said, I've driven by a few times, and the Abington High School renovation (funded by the Stephen Schwarzman donation) is shaping up to be pretty insane, in a good way.
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  #3780  
Old Posted Aug 26, 2020, 2:38 PM
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EastSideHBG EastSideHBG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
Montgomery County:
Abington (Glenside, Rydal, Huntingdon Valley)
Lower Moreland (Hungtingdon Valley)
Springfield Twp (Erdenheim, Oreland, Glenside)
Whitemarsh (everywhere)
Plymouth Township
Upper Merion

Delaware County:
Haverford Township
Newtown Township (old bits of Newtown Square)
Marple Township
Nether Providence (Wallingford)
Middletown Township (closer to Media)
Springfield
Rutledge (W-S Schools)

Bucks County
Fewer opportunities, but the Pennsbury portion of Levittown stands out as a candidate for an upgrade in housing stock (I believe it's Falls Township, specifically)

These are all "older" suburbs you describe but have excellent, not underperforming schools. There is already a high low aspect to most of them (Abington has $250K post war cape cods and $1M plus estates) so the market has shown the price points are attainable. The same thing I said about Abington is true of every township on here with the exception of Falls. In nearly all of them, you can find million dollar homes and sub-$300K tract homes. In the other regions I mentioned, those sub $300K tract homes would be coming down and replaced by custom built infill homes.

In short. Exactly what I stated before. Older suburbs, great schools, good transit connectivity.
I would add Ambler to the MontCo list also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamrobk View Post
People always forget about the eastern half of Montco (which is basically all of the towns you listed) since the focus is entirely on the Main Line, Bucks County, and Delco (which is, funnily enough, exactly the regions PHLtoNYC pointed out). The value you get for housing there is miles better than the Main Line, though the area is similarly overlooked by a lot of businesses so there isn't a ton close-by and you end up needing to go to places like KOP a lot anyway. Though I have no personal desire to ever go to one, I think Soul Cycle is a good example of what I mean - they only have two locations in the region, one in Center City and one in Ardmore. When you live in eastern Montco, you tend to notice a lot of things like that: Everything is located in some combination of Center City, the Main Line, and/or South Jersey. Also, as someone who grew up there, I have little desire to return to the area because frankly I think it's somewhat boring. (If/when I move to the suburbs, it'll almost certainly be the Main Line.) Of course, if you have kids, how "boring" I think it is may not be such a concern.

That said, I've driven by a few times, and the Abington High School renovation (funded by the Stephen Schwarzman donation) is shaping up to be pretty insane, in a good way.
There is plenty between Norristown and Montgomeryville (for example) and everything that one would need can be found in this corridor, there is no reason to go to KOP or CC.
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