Phoenix Development News (3)

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

I use to think the sky would be falling if we didn't bend over and yield to the extortion of one of these pro teams. That we had to pony up to keep them in town. No more, after seeing the example the San Francisco Giants set they established a new bar. The voters in the bay area rejected a stadium for the Giants 3 times, then it happened. The Giants paid for their own stadium. The Suns are worth 1.3 billion dollars. Why do we have to make Sarver richer?
If he cuts and runs, let him go. He is one of the worst if not the worst owner in the NBA. Phoenix is a great NBA town and if he left a new team would move here or start here. Call his bluff. If nothing else at least make him pay 3/4 of the bill and the city 1/4 sprucing up the existing arena for the second time.

Tell that to Seattle..........10 years without a team and doesn't look like they will. Have one anytime soon unless Suns come :-(. They will still need a new arena there too, hey just in time for the Suns to be good again as Booker and Ayton become one of the best combos in the league, her kinda reminds me of how Durant and Westbrooke flourished and made it to the championship just a few years after they left Seatle to go to OKC. That would be a sad day in Phoenix :-(

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

Originally Posted by stutteringpunk

I think it's funny that people are quick to throw out the idea that new arenas don't positively impact cities, yet neglect to acknowledge what the ramifications of a major sports team leaving would be.

Yep, last year my brother was in town from Michigan and brought his family to cityscape to skate the day after Thanksgiving. He was like wow, there's a lot people out walking around. I'm like, the Suns game just got out, it wouldn't be like this if the Suns game wasn't tonight.

[stutteringpunk]

Originally Posted by TJPHXskyscraperfan

Yep, last year my brother was in town from Michigan and brought his family to cityscape to skate the day after Thanksgiving. He was like wow, there's a lot people out walking around. I'm like, the Suns game just got out, it wouldn't be like this if the Suns game wasn't tonight.

Diamondbacks games too. Hell, downtown could be busy most nights if Sarver wasn't a cheapskate and went in on an Arena with the Coyotes.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by stutteringpunk

Diamondbacks games too. Hell, downtown could be busy most nights if Sarver wasn't a cheapskate and went in on an Arena with the Coyotes.

Im not doubting how good the teams are for downtown I still think its bullshit that they use that leverage as they do when they have plenty of cash flow and dont need city money to build their venues.

A bad precedent was set long ago.

[biggus diggus]

Ticket sales are huge money even in down years like this. The suite is $160K/yr with a three year lease. The average bill this year has been about $1,200/gm for food and beverage.

They're raking in money with a new "theater box" this year that cost about $70k for four people. Those all sell because they're used to entertain clients, not so much for dedicated fans to watch games.

In short, it doesn't really matter if the team is good. They're still making huge money and can afford their own renovations.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by TJPHXskyscraperfan

Yep, last year my brother was in town from Michigan and brought his family to cityscape to skate the day after Thanksgiving. He was like wow, there's a lot people out walking around. I'm like, the Suns game just got out, it wouldn't be like this if the Suns game wasn't tonight.

I disagree with this. We go downtown often and there are always people milling around.

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I disagree with this. We go downtown often and there are always people milling around.

18,000 people exiting an arena would definitely contribute to a busier than usual Downtown. Can provide an article this time if you'd like, Biggus. Or maybe you can ask one of your 'contacts'....

Thanks for those pics AnthonyPHX - Central Station project is looking pretty cool imo!

Happy Thanksgiving and Go Suns.

[biggus diggus]

Talking like there's nothing going on unless there's a game is very 2007. That's all. Not looking for an argument, bud.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Ticket sales are huge money even in down years like this. The suite is $160K/yr with a three year lease. The average bill this year has been about $1,200/gm for food and beverage.

They're raking in money with a new "theater box" this year that cost about $70k for four people. Those all sell because they're used to entertain clients, not so much for dedicated fans to watch games.

In short, it doesn't really matter if the team is good. They're still making huge money and can afford their own renovations.

Most teams do not generate enough profit to fund a stadium and pay players. This is a huge misconception people have about sports teams. Just beacause they are worth billions doesn’t mean anything. So if Sarver sold the team for $1.5B he’d have enough to pay for the stadium. The value is no reflection of revenue and profit.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Most teams do not generate enough profit to fund a stadium and pay players. This is a huge misconception people have about sports teams. Just beacause they are worth billions doesn’t mean anything. So if Sarver sold the team for $1.5B he’d have enough to pay for the stadium. The value is no reflection of revenue and profit.

But you are omitting the fact that they can borrow off of that equity. 250 million of fix it up wouldn't be that big of deal and I don't know what their current situation is on who gets the parking dollars etc but their also may be some play there. The San Francisco Giants payed for an entire stadium Sarver can pony up for this rehab job and not break a sweat.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

But you are omitting the fact that they can borrow off of that equity. 250 million of fix it up wouldn't be that big of deal and I don't know what their current situation is on who gets the parking dollars etc but their also may be some play there. The San Francisco Giants payed for an entire stadium Sarver can pony up for this rehab job and not break a sweat.

But the Giants still received a tax abatement and the city paid for the infrastructure upgrades that totaled around 100 million for the new stadium. Keep in mind that was in 1997. Today, that would equate to about 160 million. So it wasn't totally free to the city.

[fawd]

1) Even though the Suns paid half of the original construction costs in the early 1990s, the Phoenix Suns do not own Talking Stick Resort Arena. They are contractually obligated to remain a tennant through 2022. Any expectation that the Suns should pay for all the renovations on an asset they do not own, isn’t realistic.

Its worth noting that the City of Phoenix is STILL making payments on the original construction.


2) Robert Starver is one of the ‘poorest’ pro owners in the country, in all the leagues. Frankly, he doesn’t have much business being an owner and couldn’t buy the Suns today at market value even if he wanted to. Case in point: the Suns are one of the very few pro franchises that doesn’t even have a dedicated practice facility. Hell, the University of Arizona player facilities are MUCH, MUCH better than the Suns.

If he can’t even afford to build a dedicated practice facility...


3) Ticket Sales and Arena Sales repesent a small portion of total revenue for the teams. In fact, ticket sales don’t cover much more than the cost of the holding games, maintaining Suns operated arena assets, arena staff, security, offices etc. Havent even gotten to other costs like player salaries. Gate receipts are less than 35MM for the Suns, per season.

You guys pointing to ticket sales as a reason for (almost) every team to fund renovations are way off. There are a couple exceptions like the Knicks, whom bring in more than 130MM in ticket sales per season.



I could keep going, but it’s a holiday... summary: even if the Suns could afford a 300MM bill to renovate (which would be a MAJOR stretch under current ownership), they wouldn’t do so under the current agreement with the City of Phoenix.

[biggus diggus]

I did not know the Suns didn't in tsra. You're right, expecting the tenant to fund renovations is nuts.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by fawd

1) Even though the Suns paid half of the original construction costs in the early 1990s, the Phoenix Suns do not own Talking Stick Resort Arena. They are contractually obligated to remain a tennant through 2022. Any expectation that the Suns should pay for all the renovations on an asset they do not own, isn’t realistic.

This is also known as a subsidy. If they owned the arena like any other private entity owns commercial property, they'd pay massive state and local property taxes on it.

Making it sound like the Suns didn't get anything out of the original deal is malarkey--their entire business is dependent on heavy city involvement.

Maybe an actual ownership stake would be worthwhile if they got an adequate share of other revenue (concerts, arena football, Mercury, etc) but I don't know where I could find the information to make that judgment.

I'm going to just blame Jerry Colangelo and the desperate Phoenix leadership of the 1990s that gave in to his every whim and desire. The Suns Arena was built as a basketball-only facility and I'm sure he was happy to see the Coyotes and the concerts leave for Glendale. It's an astounding lack of foresight on his and others' part that gave Phoenix the bum deal it's trying to tread water around.

[fawd]

Originally Posted by combusean

Making it sound like the Suns didn't get anything out of the original deal is malarkey--their entire business is dependent on heavy city involvement.

You must have missed the part where I noted that the Suns paid for half of the area construction costs.

Originally Posted by combusean

Im going to just blame Jerry Colangelo and the desperate Phoenix leadership of the 1990s that gave in to his every whim and desire.

You have obviously never met Jerry Colangelo. He is Phoenix ROYALTY. How dare you question his methods!!!!!!! Ha.

If DT wants to keep the Suns in their current venue, city leadership needs to pony up. The Suns have zero obligation to stay downtown. It would be INCREDIBLY foolish to loose the Suns to Scottsdale over renovation costs.


Here's the worst case scenario: Its entirely possible that downtown loses the Dbacks and the Suns in the next 5-10 years. Teams have nothing personal against downtown, there is simply no loyalty in sports business. They COULD have much more favorable options elsewhere.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

We could all debate this until we're as blue as SSP. Half are going to be OK with this, the other half are going to want Sarver to pay.

IMO, this is not a large amount of money by any means compared to today's costs for replacing/renovating arenas. I think ASU Diablo hit it on the head about what benefits they bring to Downtown. With that being said, I'm OK with $150 mil to keep the Suns and the business they bring Downtown. But I'm NOT OK with building them an entirely new arena at 3 times the cost. Give it to them while Sarver is accepting it as it is only a portion of what he was initially wanting...which was something like $400 million?

Great wrap; have to agree.

phoenixwillrise makes solid points including Sarver paying $400 million against a current value of $1.3 billion; the average is $1.65 billion.

Originally Posted by fawd

3) Ticket Sales and Arena Sales repesent a small portion of total revenue for the teams. In fact, ticket sales don’t cover much more than the cost of the holding games, maintaining Suns operated arena assets, arena staff, security, offices etc. Havent even gotten to other costs like player salaries. Gate receipts are less than 35MM for the Suns, per season.

Revenue is what drives franchise values but you're correct; it's the tee vee contract rights-revenue that makes their day.

But this is also why, I assume, that a renovation is deemed sufficient. While Sarver should pay half... it's up to the city. If they can continue to exist for $150 million it sounds like a decent investment (by the city) to me.

[TJPHXskyscraperfan]

And I think everyone forgot that the city just sold the Sheraton for what was it, 100, 150 million? This is where the money is coming from I guess, right? That's what the conversation was about during the sale of the Sheraton. I sure hope that lady loses the election for mayor and that fire fight guy wins. Sports are so important for the culture and sense of community for a great big city.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by TJPHXskyscraperfan

And I think everyone forgot that the city just sold the Sheraton for what was it, 100, 150 million? This is where the money is coming from I guess, right? That's what the conversation was about during the sale of the Sheraton. I sure hope that lady loses the election for mayor and that fire fight guy wins. Sports are so important for the culture and sense of community for a great big city.

Uh...we LOST that much money from selling it. I'm for subsidizing this, but this kind of getting things wrong might just turn me around. SMH

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by TJPHXskyscraperfan

Tell that to Seattle..........10 years without a team and doesn't look like they will. Have one anytime soon unless Suns come :-(. They will still need a new arena there too, hey just in time for the Suns to be good again as Booker and Ayton become one of the best combos in the league, her kinda reminds me of how Durant and Westbrooke flourished and made it to the championship just a few years after they left Seatle to go to OKC. That would be a sad day in Phoenix :-(

The difference being Seattle did not support their team Phoenix does. In addition the traffic in and around the area where Key Arena sits in Seattle is about as bad as it is in the U.S. and has been compounded by the fact that Amazon continues to build and bring more employees into that area creating more gridlock. Just a bad comparison overall.

[RumbleFish]

Originally Posted by phoenixwillrise

The difference being Seattle did not support their team Phoenix does. In addition the traffic in and around the area where Key Arena sits in Seattle is about as bad as it is in the U.S. and has been compounded by the fact that Amazon continues to build and bring more employees into that area creating more gridlock. Just a bad comparison overall.

FYI- I am Seattle and the fans did support the team, but if you are talking about the city leaders that can may be legit.