Ontario Highways

[sonysnob]

The orange is a clear patch in the sky. The rest of the sky was cloudy.

[sonysnob]

Evening view looking southerly from the King Road overpass along the 400. The northbound HOV still has yet to open to traffic:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_4...ov21_24x16.jpg

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Evening view looking southerly from the King Road overpass along the 400. The northbound HOV still has yet to open to traffic:


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_4...ov21_24x16.jpg

Is this the plan for north to Barrie, or is there plans to add more non HOV lanes?

[ScreamingViking]

There are a few stretches of 400 through Barrie that have those old barriers too, one shorter length on the south side but also between Dunlop St. and the split at Hwy 11: https://goo.gl/maps/BJxxRh6XXtLJDT5G6

MTO has been upgrading them to concrete tall-wall and guiderails, but there are still several km to be done. Last time I drove through was in September, and they were doing some work on this.

[Innsertnamehere]

The plan is to eventually widen the 400 to 4+HOV from the current 3 lanes. The initial phases are just for the additional HOV lane though.

MTO has funding to build the widening right now from Langstaff to Highway 9. The part between Major Mackenzie and King Road is now complete (NB HOVs apparently open tomorrow), with construction beginning next year to bring it up to Highway 9 and (I believe) in 2023 to bring it down to Langstaff.

On top of the actual widening work, MTO has been working for probably over a decade at this point at upgrading the rest of the 400 to make it "ready" for a future widening. This involves things like interchange and bridge reconstructions, tall wall installation, etc. A lot of this work has already been done through a bunch of interchange replacements, bridge replacements, etc., and there are only a handful of bridges and interchanges left to go.

Right now the projects underway for this off the top of my head are:

1. Aurora Side Road interchange replacement
2. Sunnydale Road Bridge Replacement (Barrie)
3. Highway 89 interchange replacement

Future projects expected to start soon, all next year or two:

1. Essa Road interchange replacment
2. North Canal Road bridge replacement and interchange closure
3. Dunlop Road interchange replacement
4. Anne Street bridge replacement
5. Innisfil Beach Road interchange Replacement
6. Highway 88 interchange replacement

This leaves basically only the Bayfield interchange remaining before the entire highway can be widened right up to the 11 split. I imagine MTO will continue to work away at the highway and the whole thing will be widened out by the end of the decade, if not sooner.

[Mulder]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The plan is to eventually widen the 400 to 4+HOV from the current 3 lanes. The initial phases are just for the additional HOV lane though.

MTO has funding to build the widening right now from Langstaff to Highway 9. The part between Major Mackenzie and King Road is now complete (NB HOVs apparently open tomorrow), with construction beginning next year to bring it up to Highway 9 and (I believe) in 2023 to bring it down to Langstaff.

On top of the actual widening work, MTO has been working for probably over a decade at this point at upgrading the rest of the 400 to make it "ready" for a future widening. This involves things like interchange and bridge reconstructions, tall wall installation, etc. A lot of this work has already been done through a bunch of interchange replacements, bridge replacements, etc., and there are only a handful of bridges and interchanges left to go.

Right now the projects underway for this off the top of my head are:

1. Aurora Side Road interchange replacement
2. Sunnydale Road Bridge Replacement (Barrie)
3. Highway 89 interchange replacement

Future projects expected to start soon, all next year or two:

1. Essa Road interchange replacment
2. North Canal Road bridge replacement and interchange closure
3. Dunlop Road interchange replacement
4. Anne Street bridge replacement
5. Innisfil Beach Road interchange Replacement
6. Highway 88 interchange replacement

This leaves basically only the Bayfield interchange remaining before the entire highway can be widened right up to the 11 split. I imagine MTO will continue to work away at the highway and the whole thing will be widened out by the end of the decade, if not sooner.

Not totally correct.

It's Anne Street that's under construction now, Sunnidale scheduled to start in 2023. Dunlop won't start construction until probably 2025-26 depending how long Anne/Sunnidale go. (Dunlop is likely a 3-4 year construction)

In addition, the bridge over Tiffen will need to be widened, as it was only constructed to accommodate 3 lanes in each direction. Looks like they did the rail bridge though, so that's good

I also don't think St Vincent will be able to accommodate the required lanes in either direction.

[Dengler Avenue]

Also, with 8-10 lanes going to 400-11 split at Crown Hills, how are the lanes distributed afterwards?
Or is this a very subtle hint that MTO intends to widen 11 to 6 lanes and convert it to a proper freeway up to Orillia in the foreseeable future?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Also, with 8-10 lanes going to 400-11 split at Crown Hills, how are the lanes distributed afterwards?
Or is this a very subtle hint that MTO intends to widen 11 to 6 lanes and convert it to a proper freeway up to Orillia in the foreseeable future?

By the time the 400 is 8+2HOV to Highway 11, I'd expect the HOV lane to turn into a regular lane past the Duckworth St interchange (the last interchange before the 400/11) and have the two rightmost lanes to branch off to continue as 400.

A 6 lane bypass of Highway 11 could be done by then to bypass a bit of the RIRO section on the way to Orillia, but I doubt it will go the whole way.

If it ever does, I'd expect the highway to be renumbered 411 up to where the Orilla controlled access freeway part ends just north of town. The highway would probably narrow back to 4 lanes at the Highway 12 interchange or maybe pushed up one interchange further to Coldwater Road where #12 continues.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Also, with 8-10 lanes going to 400-11 split at Crown Hills, how are the lanes distributed afterwards?
Or is this a very subtle hint that MTO intends to widen 11 to 6 lanes and convert it to a proper freeway up to Orillia in the foreseeable future?

If you drive the 400 north of Barrie, you can see the bridges are widened on the northbound side to easily take a 3rd lane. There are also plans (not sure where I saw them) to replace the entire RIRO section of 11 with a full freeway. So, it is conceivable that 3 lanes for the 400, 3 lanes for the new 411 and 2 lanes for the 11. Quick math, that's 8 lanes.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If you drive the 400 north of Barrie, you can see the bridges are widened on the northbound side to easily take a 3rd lane. There are also plans (not sure where I saw them) to replace the entire RIRO section of 11 with a full freeway. So, it is conceivable that 3 lanes for the 400, 3 lanes for the new 411 and 2 lanes for the 11. Quick math, that's 8 lanes.

On that note, I drove by a while back too. It’s nice to see the construction finally done. I don’t doubt that it’s now possible to slip in a 3rd NB lane for Highway 11.
The way you calculate though… that’s 8 lanes for one direction. I’m pretty sure MTO only envisions that many lanes for both directions.

There are indeed plans for turning 11 into a proper freeway, but actual drawings only exist from Washago to Gravenhurst AFAIK. MTO Central Ontario is otherwise too busy planning other stuff (like 401 widening) from what I remember.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

On that note, I drove by a while back too. It’s nice to see the construction finally done. I don’t doubt that it’s now possible to slip in a 3rd NB lane for Highway 11.
The way you calculate though… that’s 8 lanes for one direction. I’m pretty sure MTO only envisions that many lanes for both directions.

I thought you meant 8 lanes a side. Right now, there is a new bridge near Barrie that easily fits 6 lanes as the entire highway is under half the span.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

There are indeed plans for turning 11 into a proper freeway, but actual drawings only exist from Washago to Gravenhurst AFAIK. MTO Central Ontario is otherwise too busy planning other stuff (like 401 widening) from what I remember.

I'd bet that south to Barrie does also exist, but not public, yet.

[Dengler Avenue]

You mean south of Orillia?
Tbh, I’m the type that believes that no bypassing of the current section is needed unless the geometry is really bad. (MTO does plan to realign a section near Luigi Road, between Severn River and Gravenhurst.) To me, I’m merely curious which “interchanges” get to stay and which ones must go.

Edit: On a second thought, the stretch through Cumberland Beach has many close (< 200 m) entrances on the NB side. I wonder what MTO will do there.

Edit 2: Maybe I should check Oro-Medonte’s zoning map and see if anything turns up.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Mulder

Not totally correct.

It's Anne Street that's under construction now, Sunnidale scheduled to start in 2023. Dunlop won't start construction until probably 2025-26 depending how long Anne/Sunnidale go. (Dunlop is likely a 3-4 year construction)

In addition, the bridge over Tiffen will need to be widened, as it was only constructed to accommodate 3 lanes in each direction. Looks like they did the rail bridge though, so that's good

I also don't think St Vincent will be able to accommodate the required lanes in either direction.

The Tiffen St overpass was rebuilt as a part of the rail overpass work, though the structural widening of it will likely be done as a part of the actual widening contract.

I found a recent article on the work here:

https://www.thestar.com/local-barrie...ce=parsely-api

A couple of key qoutes:

Dunlop

Detailed design is currently underway for bridge replacement and interchange reconstruction. The reconstruction would run along Dunlop, from Anne to Ferndale Drive. Plans call for the widening of Dunlop to three lanes in each direction through the 400 ramp terminals. Construction could begin in 2024 or 2025.

What about the rest? The ministry says there are no plans to reconstruct the Mapleview interchange (which has been pegged for a diverging-diamond intersection) or the St. Vincent Street bridge prior to the 400 widening. Also, the Bayfield ramps will be repaved as part of the Anne project, but timing for design and construction of a new interchange there has yet to be determined.

“Highway 400 is a critical link between Northern and Southern Ontario,” ministry spokesperson Michael O’Morrow said. “It serves as a primary route for tourism, is a heavily-used commuter route, and is a key link for goods movement. (The ministry) is investing to ensure that the bridges and pavement remain in a good state of repair.”

I suspect that the 400 will initially be widened south of Bayfield, thus the longer timeline on that bridge. traffic drops quite quickly after that interchange as well so it makes sense.

If Dunlop starts in 2024, I could see the widening through Barrie starting up shortly after and finishing in 2028 or 2029, at least south of Bayfield.

I recall that MTO doesn't really plan on bringing the HOVs right to the 400/11 split immediately, instead likely ending them at Bayfield or Duckworth with just 8 GP lanes running to the split.

At some point MTO will also widen 11 out to Orillia with a new 6-lane full freeway, but that's not any time soon as 11 generally still operates fine outside of summer long weekends.

[Dengler Avenue]

Turning that HOV lane into general purpose lane at least a km before a lane drop (especially from 3 lanes to 2) makes sense. That’s pretty much what MTO has done with 417 before 7 goes off towards Carleton Place.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The Tiffen St overpass was rebuilt as a part of the rail overpass work, though the structural widening of it will likely be done as a part of the actual widening contract.

I found a recent article on the work here:

https://www.thestar.com/local-barrie...ce=parsely-api

A couple of key qoutes:


I suspect that the 400 will initially be widened south of Bayfield, thus the longer timeline on that bridge. traffic drops quite quickly after that interchange as well so it makes sense.

If Dunlop starts in 2024, I could see the widening through Barrie starting up shortly after and finishing in 2028 or 2029, at least south of Bayfield.

I recall that MTO doesn't really plan on bringing the HOVs right to the 400/11 split immediately, instead likely ending them at Bayfield or Duckworth with just 8 GP lanes running to the split.

At some point MTO will also widen 11 out to Orillia with a new 6-lane full freeway, but that's not any time soon as 11 generally still operates fine outside of summer long weekends.

Do you ahve anything to back up your thing about HOV?

South of King Sideroad, it is 3 plus 1 HOV lane. I suspect that when they widen the 400 that will be the first project all the way to the split. Ending it at Bayfield or Duckworth makes no sense and will just create traffic problems.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

You mean south of Orillia?
Tbh, I’m the type that believes that no bypassing of the current section is needed unless the geometry is really bad. (MTO does plan to realign a section near Luigi Road, between Severn River and Gravenhurst.) To me, I’m merely curious which “interchanges” get to stay and which ones must go.

Edit: On a second thought, the stretch through Cumberland Beach has many close (< 200 m) entrances on the NB side. I wonder what MTO will do there.

Edit 2: Maybe I should check Oro-Medonte’s zoning map and see if anything turns up.

As someone who, for most of his childhood went through there, it has always been a nightmare. Once the 400 is widened to the split, I fully expect a new 411 to be built between Barrie and Gravenhurst.

[Innsertnamehere]

I have a PDF saved of the EA for the alignment saved on my PC - The HOVs end around Duckworth with 8 GP lanes running to the split. The NB HOV ends just north of Bayfield, with 5 GP lanes extending to Duckworth and 4 GPs afterwards, while there are 4 SB GPs running from the split down to just before Duckworth where an additional HOV opens up. The EA also doesn't identify the St. Vincent bridge as needing replacement.

This makes sense as the AADT for the 400 from Duckworth to the split in 2016 was only 66,000, compared to 120,000 between Essa and Dunlop further south. Traffic drops from about 100k to 80k between Bayfield and Duckworth, then again down to 66k between Duckworth and the 400 split.

The 400 north of the split isn't actually busy at all, a ton of traffic on the 400 gets off in Barrie. 4 GP lanes should be fine for a long time to the split. 66k is barely enough to justify 6-lanes, yet alone 8 lanes. Also likely why MTO isn't in a huge rush to replace Bayfield, the widening just isn't really needed north of there.

[Dengler Avenue]

“4 GP after Duckworth”
Is it going to be a clean split (2+2) or a dirty one (3+2, but with the 3rd lane on 11 NB ending afterwards) at Crown Hill?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

“4 GP after Duckworth”
Is it going to be a clean split (2+2) or a dirty one (3+2, but with the 3rd lane on 11 NB ending afterwards) at Crown Hill?

SB the two lanes from each highway stay as is and become 4 lanes. NB, 3 lanes continue onto 11 before dropping to two lanes shortly after the split, and the 400 splits off with one lane and an auxiliary lane.

[Dengler Avenue]

As expected. Thanks. Not unlike the 417-7 split/merge.

[Mulder]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The Tiffen St overpass was rebuilt as a part of the rail overpass work, though the structural widening of it will likely be done as a part of the actual widening contract.

Yes, but it limits when the widening work can start. With Dunlop scheduled to be 3 years starting 2025 to 2028, You are also looking at at least two years to widen Tiffen Structure, then widening. The fact they didn't fully build that structure was a pain.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I suspect that the 400 will initially be widened south of Bayfield, thus the longer timeline on that bridge. traffic drops quite quickly after that interchange as well so it makes sense.

I am not so sure, for various reasons that structure is going to be a pain to design / build.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I recall that MTO doesn't really plan on bringing the HOVs right to the 400/11 split immediately, instead likely ending them at Bayfield or Duckworth with just 8 GP lanes running to the split.

At some point MTO will also widen 11 out to Orillia with a new 6-lane full freeway, but that's not any time soon as 11 generally still operates fine outside of summer long weekends.

They are in design stage for interchanges now in Orillia

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Also, the Bayfield ramps will be repaved as part of the Anne project, but timing for design and construction of a new interchange there has yet to be determined.

Paving strategy was just a 8 year "holding" for this area, FYI.