Rail Transit (Passenger and Freight) in Ontario

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Currently there is a high demand for moving freight. By keeping the tracks directional, you should be able to move more

The question is how do they get to sidings on the opposite side of the track if trains are prohibited from running in the wrong direction (I thought I read somewhere that one of the trains in question was leaving a siding).

What you are proposing is kind of like putting up a continuous barricade between the lanes on all 2 lane roads/highways to prevent people from ever passing or making a left turn.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The question is how do they get to sidings on the opposite side of the track if trains are prohibited from running in the wrong direction (I thought I read somewhere that one of the trains in question was leaving a siding).

What you are proposing is kind of like putting up a continuous barricade between the lanes on all 2 lane roads/highways to prevent people from ever passing or making a left turn.

I always love people who have an "easy solution" to things that multi-billion dollar companies haven't implemented because they're damned hard problems, or don't have a real benefit.

If there was so much efficiency to be gained, the company would have done this already.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The question is how do they get to sidings on the opposite side of the track if trains are prohibited from running in the wrong direction (I thought I read somewhere that one of the trains in question was leaving a siding).

What you are proposing is kind of like putting up a continuous barricade between the lanes on all 2 lane roads/highways to prevent people from ever passing or making a left turn.

Have switches that cross over, much like turning lanes. Have lights to signal trains to stop to prevent collisions on those crossovers.

I realize it isn't that simple. I am just trying to understand what is going on and why it cannot be prevented.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Have switches that cross over, much like turning lanes. Have lights to signal trains to stop to prevent collisions on those crossovers.

That is what they do. The thing is, until we deploy PTC here in Canada, there will always be the opportunity for human error.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I realize it isn't that simple. I am just trying to understand what is going on and why it cannot be prevented.

The reality is the railways are much safer than our highways and train-train collisions are rare and are typically the result of human error (often someone not reacting to a signal properly). Much more common are collisions with road vehicles and derailments due to infrastructure failure.

I recently saw a very interesting video about train control in Germany. Not sure how similar it is to things here in Canada.

• Video Link

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is what they do. The thing is, until we deploy PTC here in Canada, there will always be the opportunity for human error.



The reality is the railways are much safer than our highways and train-train collisions are rare and are typically the result of human error (often someone not reacting to a signal properly). Much more common are collisions with road vehicles and derailments due to infrastructure failure.

I recently saw a very interesting video about train control in Germany. Not sure how similar it is to things here in Canada.

• Video Link

I realize that our railways are one of the safest methods of transportation in our country. When any accident happens, we should look into the why and then see what could be done to prevent it. Does not mean it will be done, but does mean that we have answers.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I realize that our railways are one of the safest methods of transportation in our country. When any accident happens, we should look into the why and then see what could be done to prevent it. Does not mean it will be done, but does mean that we have answers.

It's not as if Transport Canada is just twiddling its thumbs. They're probably currently investigating the cause of this and will issue a report on it.

They may even issue orders to the operator to improve their practices depending on the root cause.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It's not as if Transport Canada is just twiddling its thumbs. They're probably currently investigating the cause of this and will issue a report on it.

They may even issue orders to the operator to improve their practices depending on the root cause.

I don't doubt it.

[Dengler Avenue]

https://goo.gl/maps/zWymmWQsL4tbtshN8
What were the freight cars transporting here?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://goo.gl/maps/zWymmWQsL4tbtshN8
What were the freight cars transporting here?

Bunk houses for work crews.

[swimmer_spe]

https://www.blogto.com/travel/2021/1...ing-operation/

Today, the test train from North Bay to Toronto and back happened

[GreatTallNorth2]

Some great ideas for upgrading rail in SW Ontario in this piece: "Update on Passenger Rail to Southwestern Ontario Task Force"

https://ontario.transportaction.ca/w...o-task-force/#

[Dengler Avenue]

https://windsorstar.com/news/local-n...box=1641598509
Lol, when I picked up a friend from the train station at Windsor one night in March 2017, I was wondering whether the rail tracks go to Detroit. I guess they do, after all.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://windsorstar.com/news/local-n...box=1641598509
Lol, when I picked up a friend from the train station at Windsor one night in March 2017, I was wondering whether the rail tracks go to Detroit. I guess they do, after all.

The Michigan Central Railway Tunnel which is used by CP.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

https://windsorstar.com/news/local-n...box=1641598509
Lol, when I picked up a friend from the train station at Windsor one night in March 2017, I was wondering whether the rail tracks go to Detroit. I guess they do, after all.

Yes there is a tunnel (as swimmer_spe said), but getting between Detroit's Amtrak station and Windsor's VIA station (both circled in red below) involves a rather circuitous route.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yes there is a tunnel (as swimmer_spe said), but getting between Detroit's Amtrak station and Windsor's VIA station (both circled in red below) involves a rather circuitous route.

Back up out of Windsor station and it looks like it isn't that difficult to get there. Likely won't be very fast, but it doesn't look that onerous.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Back up out of Windsor station and it looks like it isn't that difficult to get there.

As I said on UT, the only way to get to/from Windsor Station is to tunnel under (or demolish) the Bell Centre.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Likely won't be very fast, but it doesn't look that onerous.

Depends on your definition of onerous I guess, it is almost double the driving distance.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

As I said on UT, the only way to get to/from Windsor Station is to tunnel under (or demolish) the Bell Centre.



Depends on your definition of onerous I guess.

Onerous would be to have to back up all the way from one to the other. Backing up a kim or so isn't that bad. This is especially true if they use cab cars.

[ScreamingViking]

I doubt the train would even stop in Windsor. But if so, it probably makes a lot more sense to build a small station and platform on the CP line rather than taking all that time to access the VIA station (and someone paying for "express" service from Chicago to Toronto wouldn't want their train to be making many stops; otherwise, why not just fly instead)

I'd imagine CP would want Amtrack to use as much of its own track anyway; I expect there would be fees for the American service provider to use Canadian tracks... CP would want to minimize any potential benefit to CN from that, not to mention the bad blood from the fight over Kansas City Southern railway which gave rise to this tunnel deal.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I doubt the train would even stop in Windsor. But if so, it probably makes a lot more sense to build a small station and platform on the CP line rather than taking all that time to access the VIA station

They might bypass Windsor, but if they are wanting the train to be used for domestic travel in Canada, they need a station in which they can swap out the crew for a VIA crew.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

(and someone paying for "express" service from Chicago to Toronto wouldn't want their train to be making many stops; otherwise, why not just fly instead)

A flight from Toronto to Chicago is less than 2 hours. Even at an average speed of 200 km/h (it would most likely be slower), you are looking at over 4 hours to cover the over 800km by train (not counting the 90 minutes waiting at the boarder for all passengers to clear customs). At this distance the train isn't competitive on travel time with flying (it can be on driving though). IMHO, it is more likely that either the Amtrak train will terminate in Windsor or the VIA trains will terminate in Detroit to have passengers clear customs in the station instead of holding up the entire train at the boarder because one person is being grilled.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I'd imagine CP would want Amtrack to use as much of its own track anyway;

Nope. Passenger trains are a nuisance to the freight railways. CP is only playing nice right now because they want Amtrak to put in a good word for them in Washington so that they will approve the KCS merger. After the merger is approved and the dust has settled, CP will be like "Amtrak who?" unless a contract has been signed.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I expect there would be fees for the American service provider to use Canadian tracks...

There are, but the railways make a lot more money shipping freight. Investors don't want to invest in something that is only marginally profitable, and thus only show a small return on investment. They want to invest in things that show a large return on investment.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

CP would want to minimize any potential benefit to CN from that, not to mention the bad blood from the fight over Kansas City Southern railway which gave rise to this tunnel deal.

CP is quite happy letting CN host most of VIA's routes.

[ScreamingViking]

The flight time for jets may be less than 2 hours, but add in travel between the airports and respective downtowns plus the hassle of actually getting to the gate. That helps even things.

Porter's flights are more downtown-friendly at each end, but take more than 2.5 hours in the air, at least at present with their turboprops.

Could CP be looking for government money to do work on the tunnel (given its age I imagine there are issues? plus it can't handle some of the double-stacked freight cars, correct?), or improve its own track in Ontario?

But it makes the most sense that they may just be using this to help butter up the folks on Capitol Hill.